Kyungsun Bansi: less than desirable flavor

cousinfloydJanuary 29, 2014

Thanks to Scott's mention in the thread "Asian persimmons that have stood the test of time in SE" I found a great article titled "Status of Oriental Persimmon Planting at Eastern Shore of Maryland" that was published in Pomona in 2006.

One thing that surprised me in that article was the author's note of KBS having "less than desirable flavor" and its relatively low score in the taste tests that had been conducted over the years. My impression from what others on this forum have said is that it was really a superior variety. The authors describe it as the most beautiful with shiny, unblemished skin, but they seemed to imply that the flavor wasn't sufficient to consider it sellable. However, they also said almost all of the varieties are pretty good when eaten at their optimum time.

Other interesting notes on the subject of flavor were the high marks given to 20th Century, Sheng, and Great Wall. I had the impression that Great Wall, in particular, wasn't thought of especially well with regards to taste.

The highest marks for taste were given to a variety named Pen. Does anyone grow Pen? Or has anyone tasted it? Its only shortcoming seems to be fruit size (at about 85% of Saijo/55% of KBS), but I could see compromising size for longevity/cold-hardiness, good vigor, unblemished fruit, and good tree size (which seems to offer advantages in my particular circumstances.)

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Tony(Zone 5. Omaha, Nebraska)

CF,

Persimmonbob and Persian Orchard had high remark for Kyung Sun Ban Si and Giombo.

Tony

    Bookmark   January 29, 2014 at 6:48PM
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Scott F Smith(6B/7A MD)

Floyd, I read that article back in 2006 and I obtained many of the varieties that were rated well from the Wye plantation. I have Pen but I put it in a bad spot so it sat there doing nothing for several years and a few years ago I finally put it on its own root and its finally getting to fruiting size. Aizu Michirazu is one that was rated well there which I have found is very good, but this year it didn't ripen in time. Maru (the Maru at Wye in particular, there are many of them) was rated well there and is very good tasting, but is small and seedy. Thats also the problem with Great Wall, the flavor is good but is small and seedy and the texture is also not very desirable.

My KBS died a long time ago and I never got to taste it.

Scott

    Bookmark   January 29, 2014 at 10:03PM
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creekweb(6,7)

If the author of one article or the outcome of one taste test determines one variety to be inferior, this solitary opinion is worth only so much, no matter what the source. I truly don't know how the judges compensated for the different ripening times of the varieties when they did a taste test at one point in time -there are ways of partially compensating, but I doubt they were done. Certainly some of the varieties at the time of the testing were either over or under ripe and so were unfairly judged as not tasting very good. There are several posters on this forum that have attested to the high quality of Kyung Sun Bansi. I can say it scores highly in terms of flavor, consistency, ease of ripening off tree, appearance of tree, cold hardiness and size and appearance of the fruit.

    Bookmark   January 29, 2014 at 10:15PM
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Scott F Smith(6B/7A MD)

Creek, while I have not looked at the aforementioned article in several years, I recall it was a group taste test held over a series of years. That said, I agree you can't read too much into it; there can be systematic errors due to where the particular tree of that variety was or the time at which the tests were conducted etc. I think Aizu Michirazu was the overall highest rating average (or so goes my rusty memory) and I also find it excellent-tasting, so there is also clearly more than just noise in the data.

Scott

Edit: I found my old file with the best average ratings in it. Aizu wasn't the highest but it was tied with Pen and Mazugata was higher but it had only one year of data. Some varieties had nine (!) years of data, that a lot. These are the averages of the yearly taste ratings.

Alzu Michirazu - 8.2
Mazugata - 8.5
Pen - 8.2
Maru - 7.5
Saijo - (forgot to write down)
Tsurushigaki - 6.7
Sheng - 7.5
20th Century - 7.5

If anyone wants Mazugata I had to cut it down this winter but I can send wood. It was on a too-vigorous stock too closely crammed in and it just made wood for me and I don't have another spot to put it.

This post was edited by scottfsmith on Thu, Jan 30, 14 at 9:03

    Bookmark   January 30, 2014 at 8:55AM
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creekweb(6,7)

Hard to ignore then. My guess is that the source of the disparity is the quality of fruit rather than taste preferences.

    Bookmark   January 30, 2014 at 1:55PM
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cousinfloyd

Creekweb, I found it surprising, too, given the apparent quality of the MD taste tests, on the one hand, and the strong praise I've heard from every other source. Do I understand correctly that you have a fruiting KSB at your place? What's your overall impression of the variety? I think I've heard enough strong recommendations, and I have enough space, that I'm already sold, but I'm interested in hearing about others' experiences

Scott, mazugata is a PV type, right?

To fill in the blank, Saijo was scored 7.3 but with only one tasting year.

    Bookmark   January 30, 2014 at 10:19PM
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Scott F Smith(6B/7A MD)

Floyd, I believe Mazugata is PVA. Its funny that Googling Mazugata persimmon only pulls up my Gardenweb posts (including this one). I got that spelling from the Wye tree but the more common one is Masugata. Googling on that name pulls up an old Journal of Heredity article calling it PVA and also mentioning it produces occasional male flowers. I link the article below; it is interesting to read up on the US persimmon interest way back in 1914 and to see what varieties were common back then.

Scott

Here is a link that might be useful: Masugata article

    Bookmark   January 31, 2014 at 8:45AM
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creekweb(6,7)

I have several trees of this variety and have tried them on a few different rootstocks. I recommend them on virginiana. I tried one with a great wall interstem and the whole tree ended up getting ksd . I have a large one on lotus which seems to have some compatibility problems and loses vigor as the season progresses and drops fruit. Those on virginiana make pretty large size trees with maintenance of healthy full looking leaves throughout the growing season and good production. The flavor is spicier than most with good consistency and with the ability to ripen with good quality off the tree. This is one that people who ordinarily don't like persimmons either because of lack of flavor or mushy consistency may find to their liking.

    Bookmark   February 1, 2014 at 11:16AM
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Tony(Zone 5. Omaha, Nebraska)

Here is a clip of UC Irvine persimmon collection with the Musugata variety.

Tony

Here is a link that might be useful: Uc Irvine Persimmon collecton

This post was edited by tonytran on Sat, Feb 1, 14 at 11:57

    Bookmark   February 1, 2014 at 11:56AM
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