Montmorency cherry

itheweathermanJanuary 27, 2014

I bought a montmorency cherry yesterday. My questions are:

Are they worth it?

Are they harder to maintain than sweet cherries?

Are they true cherries?

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drew51 SE MI Z5b/6a

Sweet cherries are harder, but that might depend on where you are. Here tart cherries are easier than Sweet. Are they true cherries? Well if you ever ate anything with cherry flavor you tasted them. More Montmorency are produced than any other cherry. Fruit bars, fruit rollups, any cherry flavoring, cherry pie you tasted them. More true in a sense than any sweet cherry. As when most people think of the flavor of cherry it is from Montmorency. With this in mind one could argue that sweet cherries are not true cherries, wrong species! Sweet cherries are for the fresh eating market, everything else is Montmorency. That is going to change as many new pie cherry cultivars have been developed in recent years. Many are superior to Montmorency in many ways.

This post was edited by Drew51 on Tue, Jan 28, 14 at 8:45

    Bookmark   January 27, 2014 at 11:52PM
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mrsg47(7)

Montmorency is a sour, baking cherry that I have now grown for eight years. It is true and excellent. If you like making cherry pies and jam, this cherry is for you. Your tree will need to be netted as they are a favorite of birds. It is my favorite 'classic' pie cherry. Also if you like a bit of tangy flavor, you can eat them right off of the tree. Children love them. Mrs. G

    Bookmark   January 28, 2014 at 9:03AM
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drew51 SE MI Z5b/6a

MrsG,

Yes classic is the best way to describe them. I want to try the new MSU pie cherries though. Grandpa's nursery sells them. They are a little later blooming and ripening, and developed in my state, which we grow more tarts than any other state, or country for that matter. Balaton has made inroads, and now we have 2 others. All introduced by MSU (including Balaton). The other two are Danube, and Jubileum. Dr. Amy Iazonni of Michigan State University introduced all three.

    Bookmark   January 28, 2014 at 9:19AM
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lucky_p

I grew up on the zone 7/8 interface in east-central AL. Was not really all that cognizant of fruits, other than the ubiquitous peaches and Yellow Transparent or pippin apples - and Keiffer/Orient/Pineapple pears - usually growing in the fencerow around the vegetable garden.
Never knew anyone who had a cherry tree down there, but there may have been some.

Montmorency has been the only reliable cherry I've grown here in KY. Bears good crops every year, early enough that there's minimal curculio damage or brown rot. I'm not a cherry fan - planted it for my wife - but she won't even bother to pick them, so the birds get the vast majority of them.
Don't know how it'll fare in 8b, but it would be the first one I'd try...

    Bookmark   January 28, 2014 at 10:30AM
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itheweatherman

âÂÂWell if you ever ate anything with cherry flavor you tasted them. More Montmorency are produced than any other cherry. Fruit bars, fruit rollups, any cherry flavoring, cherry pie you tasted them.âÂÂ

I thought that they were made from sweet cherries like the bing variety. Oh, well, at least the products taste like sweet cherries.

I canâÂÂt wait to try them fresh, I wonder if would like them? IâÂÂll probably have a bunch this year---the tree is loaded with flower buds.

âÂÂSweet cherries are harder, but that might depend on where you are. Here tart cherries are easier than Sweet.âÂÂ

Here in the High Desert Raineer cherries are the easiest to maintain. They require very little care; the flowers are frost tolerant; and they are self-fruitful.

IâÂÂm also planning to cross the montmorrency cherry with my bing cherry; and with a myrobalan plum.

    Bookmark   January 28, 2014 at 10:21PM
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drew51 SE MI Z5b/6a

Bing cherries can be used for pies, but commercial products are generally made from tart cherries. Many crosses exist, the Danube is a cross, so are the Romance series out of Canada, but they crossed a sour with a Mongolian cherry which is a third species. It only took them 70 years to find the right combination. I wish I had the time!
Good luck! The Danube was about 20 years, maybe slightly less.
This year a new primocane black raspberry will be released. In 1986 the breeder found a wild primocane fruiting black raspberry. It took that long. In 2005 he thought he had it with the explorer primocane fruiting black raspberry. An added feature was it was thornless. But it turned out not to be self fertile. He already patented it, it was in final evaluation trial before the discovery in 2008.So back to the drawing board. Niwot had thorns, but is self fertile. So from 1986, to 2014, and really 2015 before it will be in wide distribution (Nourse Farms will be selling it in the spring of 2015). Don't expect to just get lucky.
Multiple crosses were used to develop Niwot. A wild large berried plant, the wild primocane plant, Jewel, Bristol, Allen, Cumberland, and Haut black raspberries are in the crosses. All these plants are in the lineage of Niwot.

To truly develop something that is worthwhle it has to be better in numerous ways. For example The Niwot is more productive, has larger berries (primocane fruit) and smaller seeds than most other black raspberries, Just being a primocane fruting plant was not enough. It has to be improved in numerous ways or it will not be worthwhile for a commercial product.

    Bookmark   January 29, 2014 at 12:13AM
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itheweatherman

I've been reading many articles about the Montmorrency cherry and I found some interesting facts. Most articles (and even nurseries) list the montmorrency cherry as a hybrid of sweet cherry x nanking cherry (P. tomentosa). Interesting! So if I cross it with a myrobalan plum, the resulting offspring would be a three in one hybrid.

    Bookmark   January 31, 2014 at 11:58PM
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lucky_p

Never seen it listed as anything but P.cerasus - til you posted this. Only reference I've seen to it being a hybrid is at ArborDay - sorry, they don't rate very high, imo, as a reputable source of plants or information.

    Bookmark   February 1, 2014 at 10:38AM
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drew51 SE MI Z5b/6a

I agree with lucky, could you point us to some references that say it's a hybrid. As your claim is that the tart cherry is not really an heirloom, and only a hybrid. Your claim would also mean that Prunus cerasus is an incorrect name as this name refers to a species, not a hybrid. Are you saying that this species really does not exist? I would need multiple references to believe that. I thought it was brought to the USA in the 1600's and first reference to it was in Turkey in 300 B.C. I would really like to know how Arbor Day figures they cossed it in 300 B.C.? Ha!

This post was edited by Drew51 on Sat, Feb 1, 14 at 12:00

    Bookmark   February 1, 2014 at 10:52AM
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itheweatherman

Here is a source:

âÂÂMontmorency Cherry Tree InformationâÂÂ

http://www.gardenguides.com/117678-montmorency-cherry-tree-information.html

Here is second one:
PDF]
Morphological characterization of sweet and sour cherry cultivars in ...

https://bibliotecadigital.ipb.pt/bitstream/10198/5929/1/Morphological.pdf

    Bookmark   February 1, 2014 at 1:04PM
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itheweatherman

Here is another interesting fact: Mongolian cherries are also hybrids between P. cerasus and P. fruiticosa.

Dwarf Sour Cherries For the Prairies - DNA Gardens

http://www.dnagardens.com/Articles/Sour%20Cherries%200229.htm

    Bookmark   February 1, 2014 at 1:27PM
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drew51 SE MI Z5b/6a

Neither of those sources can confirm anything. I would not conclude it's a hybrid from those documents.
"Some think it's a hybrid" as proof it is tells me nothing.
I think it isn't, so I have as much weight as that statement.
Both conclude that lineage is unknown, some conjecture as to origins, but no proof, no DNA profiles etc.

Sure you say it's a hybrid, but so are humans, we came from bacteria, so did cherry trees. It's possible the so-called wild types are actually hybrids of Prunus cerasus. As they assume it's older, but we don't really know that.
You should not take speculation as fact. The only way I'll be convinced if DNA profiles are done.

Recently DNA profiles of Munger and Bristal black raspberries determined they were exactly the same.
But I get now why you made your statement, but it is a huge leap with no proof.

This post was edited by Drew51 on Sat, Feb 1, 14 at 13:39

    Bookmark   February 1, 2014 at 1:33PM
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drew51 SE MI Z5b/6a

"Here is another interesting fact: Mongolian cherries are also hybrids between P. cerasus and P. fruiticosa."

You need to go back and read that again. Your statement is incorrect. Fruiticosa are Mongolian cherries. The only true Mongolian cherries. As pointed out in the document you list.
You missed this sentence I guess?
These hybrid cherries were not given a new name when they were developed so most nurseries erroneously call them Mongolian cherries

This post was edited by Drew51 on Sat, Feb 1, 14 at 14:35

    Bookmark   February 1, 2014 at 2:12PM
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itheweatherman

"Neither of those sources can confirm anything. I would not conclude it's a hybrid from those documents.
"Some think it's a hybrid" as proof it is tells me nothing."

True. Only DNA tests will determine whether it's a hybrid or not.

"You missed this sentence I guess? "

I believe I did.

    Bookmark   February 1, 2014 at 4:40PM
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