Opinions Wanted

gringojayJanuary 16, 2009

My ineptitude at posting requires I repeat:

Jan. 6, 2009 post "Psoriasis-Natural Relief" trailed off into discussions of different theories- which merits it's own airing; so, maybe read there & if have anything to say let's try to exchange our concepts. On several other posts the discussion gets contentious around methodology & I would welcome all opinions in this thread.

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brendan_of_bonsai(4b AK)

The reason that so many threads end in discussions of methodology is that so many of them contain unsupported claims about efficacy, when support is asked for typically a magical defense is raised. That and depending on who is making the claim maybe a few dozen personal attacks, I would really recommend the strawberry thread if you are in the mood for that sort of thing.

    Bookmark   January 16, 2009 at 9:55PM
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gringojay, Did you mean the continous bickering on these threads. I would really like to see herbalism explained without all the arguing.If i want a medical opinion,i'll go to my doctor. Do you or anyone else have a
suggestion for keeping the subject on herbs and not anything else.I know there has to be some herbalist around to give some information to us newbies. I could care less about research on anything. I just want someone who can tell me something with comman sense about herbs. Is that so much to ask? I really don't care how smart they are if they grow herbs and use them.
Thank you anyone,

    Bookmark   January 17, 2009 at 12:49AM
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brendan_of_bonsai(4b AK)

The best way to keep a discussion on herbs on the subject of the herbs is to avoid making arguments that involve medical issues. An incompetent doctor is not an argument for any one herbal treatment, greedy pharmaceutical companies are not a reason to go for any one herb, I think I'm just going to list some examples.
*unfair distribution of medicine
*the magical characteristics of herbs
*an assumption of positive synergy with out a study to support it for that particular herb
*an ancient practice that involved that herb
*the inclusion of that herb in a non-evidence based medicine medical concoction
*the personal revelation by some supernatural force of the efficacy of an herb
*an argument from authority about the effectiveness of any herb
*Any combination of quantum mechanics and post modernism (i.e. reality is what you think it is)
*a gut feeling about an herb
*the idiocy of another poster
*The purported corruption of the FDA
*devine intervention to provide us with natural healing methods.
*anecdotal evidence
Those are all things that you and others should avoid if you want to keep your threads on the topic of herbalism.

This forum is for the discussion of herbalism, the use of herbs for medicinal purposes. You cannot extract the medicinal methods of thinking from this forum and keep the medicinal title, perhaps you should look for a forum on the history of use of herbs rather than the medical use of herbs if you do not see the value in medicine or the studies that let us know what actually works. The prescience world that you seem to want still exists, but they only live about 35 years there.

    Bookmark   January 17, 2009 at 1:40AM
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"This forum is for the discussion of herbalism, the use of herbs for medicinal purposes. Any advice given here is that of other users and GardenWeb makes no warrant as to its appropriateness."

This quote from the main page of this forum says nothing about anyone having to "prove" the value of herbs. When I first found this forum I thot it would be wonderful to discuss how we all used various herbs but unfortunately that seldom happens here. I find it's easier to avoid this forum and google for info about herbs.

    Bookmark   January 17, 2009 at 3:51PM
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Infallibility is distinct from a point of view. (Pardon any non-responsiveness, for now.)
Iatrogenic describes physician induced illness. Is this malpractice?
Japan % of advanced age population is high. Do they take the same drug load as in USA?
Seaweed, for example, is uniquely traditional in a Japanese diet. Can this plant be called a drug?
Autopsy may show a cause of death which differs hospital's diagnosis. Were their Drs. frauds?
Research continues to revise our physiological understanding. Are old medical texts bogus?
Fads have always existed. Is hypochondria rampant because people fixate on the latest "it" our culture discovers?
Accepted medical practice is drug orientated. Are the under-developed nations' population wrong to seek alternatives?
Purification of all herbs' components is cost driven. Is using the traditional preparation better than awaiting marketing?
Empirical data is assembled out of inquiry. Are view points necessarily wrong when conclusions are drawn?
Individual response to drugs/"herbs" varies. Is a testimonial of helpful efficacy less valid than testimonial of no use?
Many sufferers are poly-symptomatic. Should society resources bear the cost of research/treating rare disease?
Remission is an accepted state. When undocumented is it any less welcome?
Placebo response is apparently physiologically a true change. Isn't this cure a challenge to diagnostic hubris?
Psycho-somatic interaction is a modern axiom. Can this have distinct social expression in different cultures which affects the individual's healing response(s)?
Anti-biotics have shown great benefit. If it is not a contemporary discovery are newly developed anti-biotics an out growth of past use?
People survived the Black Plague. Did they all have genetic immunity or might some have owed their lives to employing herbalism?
The Haitian life span is 30% lower than in the USA. Is poverty lived out in the bush more survivable than in the village/urban environment?
People in Macao live longer than in the USA. Are they still sometimes following oriental superstitions?
Now herbalists describe contra-indications of herbs with drugs. Is it possible that sometimes the herb will help & the drug is not?
I am pleased when drugs work for people & am a sucker for lab test data for others. For developed nations' population the pharmaceutical remedy is by far my preferred 1st option.
Having seen some horribly botched "herbal" treatments I have known others finding relief from suffering.
The indigenous/folk healer shedding head gear & leaving aside "mumbo-jumbo" for a white coat & prescription pad is a possibility. Maybe one of you is lurking on this forum.

    Bookmark   January 17, 2009 at 5:03PM
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brendan_of_bonsai(4b AK)

Do you want a rational discussion? Or do you think that one herb should be used just because someone can find a case of someone using it before?

    Bookmark   January 17, 2009 at 6:55PM
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Thought this would be an interesting forum but 1/2 hour in and I am tired of the fighting and bickering. Guess I will search elsewhere for info, too bad this could have been a good site

    Bookmark   January 18, 2009 at 8:35AM
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oakleif(z6 AR)

I am so sorry tckttt, We have transformed ourselves into screaming wild hyannas. Anyone know at the moment how to spell that last word. ;0 I forgot. Give us a couple of weeks and maybe we'll learn some manners and be able to get to work on building up this forum again, If we all work together we can. At this point i time this forum is really needed to give good sound herbal information with some responsible good medical advise thrown in for good measure. But all of us have to try very hard to keep strictly on focus and not get off subject and knock each other down. I am willing to make an effort. You'll have to forgive my spelling lapses and incorrect English at times. I hope everyone knows who i'm referring to as us. What does everyone think about informal posts so no one feels things are too complicated. I don't think herbs requires formal language. If anyone feels they have to use complicated words than explaining them would be a good option. I have learned that it is good to use both latin and comman names for herbs and it will help everyone learn the latin names(like me) May i suggest everyone read the frequently asked questions. Someone put some hardwork into it and you might learn something. Me too. We might also think how to curb the negativity on any post, again i need the most curbing and will go with the opinion of the forum. Should we ask some of the older posters take over for awhile to encourage everyone to comply. OK folks lets get busy and make this the best post on ivillage. Lets not think about it. Let us do it.

    Bookmark   January 18, 2009 at 9:32AM
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brendan_of_bonsai(4b AK)

Hyena (I know it seems like it should be longer).

tckattt I thought this thread was going fairly well, we were on topic up to your post.

I am fully supportive of curbing the negative tone.

In a thread about an herb once a suspect methodology is brought in to support one use or another or deny one use or another that methodology has to be discussed rather than just calling the conclusion out or the person making it, by discussing methodology specifically (this is your premise and conclusion, not "oh you are just a stupid herbalist" or "we don't want your medicine here") we can completely avoid all bickering and fighting, the only other way to do that is to let patently false and unsupported information of a medical nature stand, if that were being done about pharmaceuticals everyone who regularly participates in this forum would have a serious problem with that. I personally feel that we should treat a substance as a drug or not based on how it effects or is supposed to effect the body rather than the corporate structure of its manufacturer.

    Bookmark   January 18, 2009 at 3:53PM
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I like rational discussions & 2nd opinions.
So, opinions wanted ....
The paradigm of only a reductionist focus is not my sole interest.
Personally, yes, I have used herbal concoctions on the recommendation of others with & without success.
Do I actually have a worthwhile contribution to maybe someone in the forum's herbal bag of tricks?
I will let others decide in a distinct herbalism post very soon (maybe everybody will know it already).

    Bookmark   January 18, 2009 at 9:43PM
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Well,I'm gone from here also. I hope everyone does check out the herbalism topic on Hot Topics forum.
Someone simplified the situation very well. Brendon is looking for a fight and Oakleif is willing to ablige him.

I've visited Daves Garden and even though you have to pay to belong it is well worth it as it is a pleasant place to be. I don't know why ivillage allows Brendon or Oaklif to stay here.

I wish all of you herbalist the best and wish i could have known you.
Bye now,

    Bookmark   January 19, 2009 at 6:27AM
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brendan_of_bonsai(4b AK)

I'd like to add that just because someone said it doesn't make it true, I have had a lot of words crammed in my mouth lately.

    Bookmark   January 19, 2009 at 9:17AM
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Since couldn't figure out where to post this I do it here.
Rural Africa has 50 times less asthma than developed western nations (U.S.A. asthma rate reportedly 2 times the 1980 %).
Some of this is theoretically due to hygiene leading to undeveloped immunological systems (as discussed on this forum).
Here is another recently proposed factor (not my original idea).
The prevalent shift in use from aspirin to acetaminophen (for over the counter fever/pain relief as Tylenol, etc.) diminishes the anti-oxidant glutathione in the body & so the lungs are vulnerable to damage.
Who knew?

    Bookmark   February 17, 2009 at 8:05PM
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brendan_of_bonsai(4b AK)

That's a really interesting idea.

    Bookmark   February 17, 2009 at 8:16PM
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I never went to using acetominophen. when my kids were little i gave them tylenol than when they were teens iswitched back to asprin. I agree we give and take too many wonder drugs that only seem to make us sicker. Tho there are some drugs that are good if taken with caution as with herbs.

    Bookmark   February 19, 2009 at 10:04PM
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Hi goshen,
I assume you knew/know tylenol is brand name acetominophen ( drug is called paracetamol in UK).
It is curious that acetominophen's working physiology for effectiveness is not scientificly understood. Yet it is compounded with other drugs & prescribed; and over-the-counter over doses have caused liver damage & even subsequent deaths around the world.
( Any beneficial herb with these risk factors would be legally demonized. )
Personally, give me Noni root tincture externally for acute body pain.
As for aspirin: I have an adult family member who can not take it - even in the baby 81 mg. dose.

    Bookmark   February 19, 2009 at 10:49PM
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brendan_of_bonsai(4b AK)

The mode of action is not completely understood, We do know that it inhibits COX-1 and that this reduces production of prostaglandins from eicosanoids, its not a complete mystery.

    Bookmark   February 19, 2009 at 11:40PM
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