skin fungi on the arms

deangeloJune 17, 2008

i need help with this form of tinea on my arms. i have tried clotromazole,cortizone an lamisil and nothinr is workin an it is spreadin

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lucy(6)

Then go back to the MD, or another dermatologist.

    Bookmark   June 18, 2008 at 12:33PM
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oakleif(z6 AR)

There was no sign of spam even tho the person had just joined and they never came back.Could this have been stated in a more positive way?

    Bookmark   August 2, 2008 at 7:13PM
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apollog

A cream composed of equal parts of beeswax, olive oil and honey has shown value in treating tinea and pityriasis. Other studies have shown that the same cream can help with eczema, psoriasis, and other skin conditions.

Here is a link that might be useful: An alternative treatment for pityriasis and tinea

    Bookmark   August 4, 2008 at 11:24AM
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apollog

Might also want to add a bit of some essential oil to that cream - in another study on one of the fungi that causes tinea, "The order of the fungicidal activity of 11 essential oils was oregano, thyme thymol, cinnamon bark > lemongrass > clove, palmarose, peppermint, lavender > geranium Bourbon, tea tree > thyme geraniol oils."

Here is a link that might be useful: Effect of essential oils on Trichophyton fungus

    Bookmark   August 4, 2008 at 11:42AM
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rusty_blackhaw(6a)

In cases where the original diagnosis of tinea (fungal infection) may have been wrong, in that standard effective treatments did not work, it's important to get a correct diagnosis before deciding on any therapy.

Otherwise you risk continued misery and possibly side reactions from supposed antifungal lotions (contact dermatitis is relatively common with tea tree oil, and has been reported in use of other herbal oils).

    Bookmark   August 4, 2008 at 12:45PM
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apollog

>> In cases where the original diagnosis of tinea (fungal infection) may have been wrong, in that standard effective treatments did not work ...

Why assume that the "standard effective treatments" are in fact effective or that the initial diagnosis was wrong? Resistance to the -zole fungicides is emerging - it may be as high as 20% of cultures that cause tinea.

The genes that confer resistance to the -zole drugs are unlikely to also confer a resistance to the beeswax/honey/olive oil cream, or to most essential oils - making them a reasonable choice for someone who tried the standard products and found no benefit.

(I never have liked the smell of tea tree oil ... too much like turpentine. Cinnamon, lemon grass and palmarosa are so much nicer.)

    Bookmark   August 4, 2008 at 1:24PM
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rusty_blackhaw(6a)

"Why assume that the "standard effective treatments" are in fact effective or that the initial diagnosis was wrong?"

It's far from clear who made the "diagnosis" in the first place. Since all the treatments mentioned in the opening post are available over the counter, it's entirely possible the poster decided himself that he had a fungal infection and no physician was involved.

It's easy to envision a scenario where someone self-diagnoses a problem and tries to treat it. The problem gets worse (the rash could be due to a number of different things, and even might be exacerbated by the treatments used on it). Perhaps it was a contact dermatitis caused by sensitivity to some lotion or occupational exposure - then in a sensitized individual you could have the treatment provoking a worse dermatitis. The individual thinks he needs more treatment, so more lotion gets slathered on, the problem gets worse...

It's problematic enough when a physician attempts to treat a disorder without knowing what it is - it's that much worse when someone tries to self-treat.

Always best to know what you're dealing with - then you can attempt alternative treatments with at least some chance of getting the desired result.

    Bookmark   August 4, 2008 at 2:56PM
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oakleif(z6 AR)

apollog, Thanks so very much for the info and links. Am gong to try the honey,olive oil,beeswax mix on the psorisis,i have.This is info i needed and did'nt know it was out there. I now know to google herbal research for any thing i need on Pubmed.

The herbal mix sounds good also. It stands to reason that some plants have evolved methods to combat fungi. I liked the cross references for studies also

I've wondered if the fact that Japan #10 and United Arab Emeriatis #27(who did the studies) are ranked so much higher in health care than the US#37 by the World Health Organization is because they combine alternate health care along with Western type medicine. and we don't. For example There is no way i can pay $200 for a monthly tube of Ultravate cream or a newer cream for psorisis and i was forced to quit taking it. So the herbal cream sounds like a God send to try. More and more people are getting to the point they can't afford health care and cerainly not the medication so what choice do they have but to turn to alternative medicine. If the Medical Industry would get involved with alternative medicine and do research like most other countrys,we might improve our medical record at a more affordable price. Then also herbs and manmade medication would be more regulated.

    Bookmark   August 4, 2008 at 3:24PM
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apollog

>> It's far from clear who made the "diagnosis" in the first place.

Ok - that makes sense.

>> There is no way i can pay $200 for a monthly tube of Ultravate cream

Yeah, beeswax and honey are both around $3 to $5 a pound if you shop around, and olive oil probably about the same (not sure, I buy in bulk from a warehouse club and don't know the best price - so 3 pounds for $15-$20 is not too bad. That same cream is good for dry skin in general - the wife put it on her feet when retiring to bed last night.

It's probably not as quick an effect as the prescription meds you mentioned. Steroids thin the skin and I don't like the idea of long term use of them; Dovonex (variant of vitamin D) is not so bad in potential side effects as far as I can see and I have used it from time to time, but it costs a bit more than $5 a pound).

    Bookmark   August 4, 2008 at 4:17PM
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rusty_blackhaw(6a)

As to those health care rankings - if things are so wonderful in the United Arab Emirates, wonder why their President came to the U.S. for kidney transplant surgery. :)

    Bookmark   August 4, 2008 at 5:29PM
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oakleif(z6 AR)

eric,seeing as who he is, He is probably afraid of who might pay to see him die in his country.
would'nt you? Any way WHO rates for us comman people like you and me. not the upper echelon. actually for the whole of society and there are'nt a lot of upper class. The everyday man gets much better care than we do.

    Bookmark   August 5, 2008 at 10:00AM
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rusty_blackhaw(6a)

There's nothing in that story to indicate that the UAE President had anything to fear from being treated in his own country - except possibly not getting care as good as he could receive here.

The UAE has also for a long time recruited American physicians to fill slots in that country - odd, if their care is so much better than ours.

Health care rankings are influenced by a number of factors, including demographics and income and how they affect access to care. I've never seen evidence that countries are ranked ahead of us because they prioritize providing alternative therapies.

    Bookmark   August 5, 2008 at 2:04PM
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apollog

>> The UAE has also for a long time recruited American physicians to fill slots in that country - odd, if their care is so much better than ours.

And the US has long recruited doctors from India and other countries around the world ... wouldn't that be odd behavior if the US system was much better than India's? ;)

In terms of high tech surgery, and in terms of cosmetic procedures, the US does quite well. In terms of more basic care, and in terms of access to care, the US system falls short of other countries in many ways.

I saw widespread practice of one 'alternative' medical practice when I lived in Scandinavia - it is a quaint procedure that US medicine largely gave up decades ago when it 'modernized' and 'rationalized' (and 'depersonalized') ... the house call.

    Bookmark   August 5, 2008 at 7:37PM
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oakleif(z6 AR)

eric,They were recruiting from US, Canada and UK. As apollog stated american plastic surgeons are very good at least to the rich but not so good to the less wealthy. Did i link that article here on that subject? I meant to.; ) Will see if i can find it.

Herbal remedies, offer a chance for help when health care denies us even a chance for medical help because we simply don't have access to it whether the medicine is good or bad. Before i quit taking all my meds. It cost abt $2,300 a month.Than i retired and lost my good insurance and had to quit taking most meds and i m not alone. I know of at least 4 other people who had to quit taking their medicine. eric, if you could solve the problem for drug affordability, the presidential candidates would happily pay you $50,000 a day for the information.LOL

    Bookmark   August 5, 2008 at 8:30PM
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beckilove

apollog - thank you very much for that cream suggestion! I am excited to try it on my eczema. I have used a steroid cream for years when it gets really bad, but I really dispise using it. My hands get it quite severly, and I am always concerned about touching anything, especially my kids, after I have applied steroid cream. Plus, I just found out I am expecting again, and am DEFINTELY not comfortable using it during prenancy!

I have recently become very interested in herbalism, and was really happy to find this forum! Unfortunately, it seems like there is a lot of drama here, but at least it adds to the entertainment value, I guess! : )

Becki

    Bookmark   August 5, 2008 at 8:40PM
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rusty_blackhaw(6a)

"And the US has long recruited doctors from India and other countries around the world ... wouldn't that be odd behavior if the US system was much better than India's? ;)"

I think you'll find that "recruitment" consists largely of accepting a certain number of foreign-born medical graduates to fill residency training slots. We are not, for example, running ads in the UAE, San Marino, Andorra, Malta, Singapore, and Oman (to name othe top-ranked countries in the WHO health care survey) to get highly qualified physicians to come to the United States.

I'll agree that access to care could stand considerable improvement in this country. Quality of care goes well beyond "high-tech" procedures and includes excellent basic care - if you have a good health care plan, are covered by existing government programs or can otherwise afford the necessary care.

    Bookmark   August 5, 2008 at 9:03PM
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oakleif(z6 AR)

Hi Becki, Glad you're here,and congratulations on the baby.
Opollog has good info.I don't but i'm only here temporarily anyway and there are some good links to herbal sites.I'll bump some up. I worried about touching my dogs with steroid hands too. So my vet gives the dog steroids for ear infection along with antibiotics. LOL

What "good health care plan?" I would really love to know so i can join. so please tell us How much it costs. What does it cover? What percentage to you have to pay? How much do you have to pay in before you're covered? If private insurance,will they accept you if you have heart problems,cancer,diabetis,or any chronic disease?

Government Programs? I suppose you mean Medicare or medicaid. I don't know about medicaid,except i don't qualify. Medicare pays %80 for nondrug benefits When you still owe almost $10000 that still is'nt feasable to most people in this country.No coverage at all for drugs. The gov plan for private insurance for drugs is not helpful. I cancelled mine last month because my out of pocket expense would'nt be met at all this year. Than they would've payed a little bit had i qualified for the next step. and i would be responsible for all of it again.
I loved your last statement"or can other wise afford the necessary care." I know you did'nt mean"If they don't have bread let them eat cake" Since you did'nt mean it, You still havent come up with links on figures,prices,coverage,etc You seem to love to research and figure out things. So help your country keep us from having to turn to herbal medicine. I'm really serious i would love to be able to afford to go to doctors and get prescription medicine. I also like to eat,have a roof over my head,a little heat in winter. Yes and a computer-MSN2,because i live in the middle of a national forest and i need contact with the world.Also the cost would'nt touch one of my medical bills.

Remember facts and figures and costs that would help me and others. Meanwhile i'll stick to herbs.

You betcha doctors from other countrys are running to get here. They can make a fortune here. and there's not just a few, they are everywhere in specialty fields. If i wanted to make money i'd do the same thing.What other country can you get a patient to pay for a doctors mistake. Actually i really don;t know if there are other countries that do so.

    Bookmark   August 5, 2008 at 10:24PM
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rusty_blackhaw(6a)

If I had an easy and fabulously affordable answer to our health care problems I'd surely share it.

Universal access to the best evidence-based care is what we need to work towards.

Having practitioners and patients make guesses about the source of skin problems and slathering on beeswax and olive oil cream as being "good for what ails ya" is not the type of medicine that will boost America in world health care rankings.

    Bookmark   August 6, 2008 at 12:06AM
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apollog

>> Having practitioners and patients make guesses about the source of skin problems and slathering on beeswax and olive oil cream as being "good for what ails ya" is not the type of medicine that will boost America in world health care rankings.

Who's making guesses about the sources of skin problems? Only you, as far as I can tell. The person in the first post asked about tinea, and the discussion was about tinea (later expanded to psoriasis). I took it as an assumption that the person had tinea, and presented information that a relatively simple cream can be useful for tinea (and psoriasis). We don't know that the person was or wasn't accurately diagnosed - regardless of that, we can discuss those conditions and treatments for them.

This really goes against what you were promoting in other threads - that there will never be a good treatment from 'alternative' medicine because if something is proven to be effective, mainstream medicine will adapt it and it will no longer be 'alternative'. Well, here is evidence that a safe and inexpensive cream has proven itself useful in treating several skin conditions, and instead of embracing it, we see the mainstream continuing to ignore it and dismiss it, while prescribing and promoting skin creams which may be somewhat better but which retail for $1700 a pound and are beyond many people's reach. (The active ingredient in one prescription psoriasis cream is retailing for $35,800,000 a pound - the $237 tube contains only 3 milligrams of active ingredient. If we spot them 5.8 million for the inert ingredients, packaging, and distribution, that is still 30 million a pound for a tweaked form of vitamin D!)

Maybe part of the difficulty in getting universal coverage is that there are no effective cost controls.

    Bookmark   August 6, 2008 at 10:37AM
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rusty_blackhaw(6a)

You're changing your mind about whether there was a solid basis for recommending a treatment in this case? Earlier in the thread when I pointed out that it was unclear where the "skin fungus" diagnosis came from, you said:

"Ok - that makes sense.".

If a skin problem is not improving under known effective treatment and in fact is getting worse, it only makes sense to reevaluate the initial diagnosis (especially if it was self-diagnosed) and clarify what the problem is (one can culture fungal organisms if they are present in the skin and in that way confirm a fungal infection)). It should be the first principle in treating anything, whether through herbs or other drugs. There are some physicians who are too quick to prescribe steroid cream for skin disorders. It would also be foolish to urge people to use "Farmer Bob's Beeswax/Honey/Olive Oil Cures-All/Good For Man Or Beast" cream on any old rash, especially if it's spreading and causing considerable discomfort.

"This really goes against what you were promoting in other threads - that there will never be a good treatment from 'alternative' medicine because if something is proven to be effective, mainstream medicine will adapt it and it will no longer be 'alternative'."

Except that I never made or "promoted" such a statement in any thread here. This is a classic example of a strawman argument on your part - manufacturing a statement to knock down.

"Well, here is evidence that a safe and inexpensive cream has proven itself useful in treating several skin conditions, and instead of embracing it, we see the mainstream continuing to ignore it and dismiss it"

Well, let's look at that "evidence". There's a small, uncontrolled, non-double blind trial out of Dubai. The therapy was not compared to placebo or other treatment, and both patients and investigators knew what substance was being used. You can't make definitive judgments out of such a study, and the authors acknowledge this. Your other link is on effects of herbal oils on bacterial cultures - not a study in humans, animals or even mammalian tissues. There have been lots of compounds shown to have some effect or other on microorganisms or cells in culture; then it turns out that they don't work or are too toxic when used in test subjects.

So this is not an example of a "proven effective" cream "ignored by the mainstream", but a supposed cure-all that hasn't been proven to do anything, except maybe give you oily skin.
In general, skin conditions are a fertile ground for promoters of unproven and quack remedies. Many of them subside or go away on their own over time, and the salve or liniment gets the credit. Conditions like psoriasis wax and wane unpredictably, so these treatments also get undue credit here as well.

    Bookmark   August 6, 2008 at 11:11AM
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apollog

>> You're changing your mind about whether there was a solid basis for recommending a treatment in this case? Earlier in the thread when I pointed out that it was unclear where the "skin fungus" diagnosis came from, you said: "Ok - that makes sense.".

No, I agree that asking if someone has been diagnosed makes sense. But we didn't get an answer - so we can assume nothing about that person ... yet you follow up on an indeterminate situation by assuming that people are making guesses as to what it is. We don't know if it was self diagnosis or a definite diagnosis.

>> Your other link is on effects of herbal oils on bacterial cultures

No, on the effects of essential oils on fungal cultures, as we were discussing tinea, a group of fungal diseases.

Also, I suggest we keep in mind 3 other things here: location, location, and location. Trying to treat an internal infection with a substance only shown to be effective in test tube studies does require extrapolation that may be unwarranted ... some organ in the body may absorb or metabolize the treatment and keep it from reaching adequate concentrations where the infection is. On the other hand, when we are dealing with skin infections, essential oils can be applied rather directly.

There are other studies that have shown that essentials oils applied to the skin of humans are effective in treating dermatophyte fungal infections - I know you've said that you can't be expected to look up any information beyond what is presented (which doesn't stop you from giving an 'expert' opinion on something that you are unfamiliar with) - so I'll leave one such link here, though it certainly isn't the only one.

My bottom line - plants (and bees) have evolved to produce plenty of antifungal substances, and applying such substances to non-life-threatening skin infections appears to be a reasonably effective manner of treating such infections.

Here is a link that might be useful: Broad spectrum herbal therapy against superficial fungal infections.

    Bookmark   August 6, 2008 at 2:22PM
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oakleif(z6 AR)

eric, Why do you ASSUME automatically that proper diagnosis is not made for myself and deangelo. I was diaganosed by a very knowledgeable dermatologist 15 years ago.There are different types of psoriasis. They do not just wax and wane.They leave very distinct signs even when in remission. I have the type caused by autoimmune disease. 5 years ago my dermatologist used me as an example of the differences between both new parts of skin with psoritic skin leisons and old skin from years of psorisis, to a student doctor. I learned a lot from that visit. A long round of strong antibiotics will releive the symptoms for about 4 months as well as with my other autoimmune problems.
How many doctors will order fungal cultures? Few or none do. Vets do though. Maybe i'd be better off going to a vet.LOL There is also a test to correctly idendify psoriasis,but really is'nt necessary as the symptoms are unique.

The comment on "farmer Bobs" beeswax,honey and olive oil remedy was kinda aggressive and could have been stated in a more assertive manner and made everyone happier including yourself. Don't you agree.

There really is no need to do a study on this particular remedey as it has already been determined to be effective for thousands of years. And it at least does no harm.Hypocritese(SP) would be pleased.

Have you noticed that you seem to have two arguments against most things herbal? either it is too dangerous to use or a wrong diagnosis was stated by the poster. Just wondered if you'd ever considered it.

I can't see opollog changed his viewpoint on this thread. He has before though when he reasoned that there could possibly be another answer to a problem. Thats called assertive behavior. When one will not admit he's wrong in any way, thats called aggressive behavior. Could you possibly consider that just maybe your whole post was aggressively defensive. Should you think so. There are assertiveness classes offered everywhere,including a university or mental health facility near you.

    Bookmark   August 6, 2008 at 2:37PM
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rusty_blackhaw(6a)

apollog, your latest link applies to the same kind of inconclusive study - test tube measurements and uncontrolled small-scale clinical data without any comparison to placebo or standard antifungal agents. The authors finish up by saying "the ointment can be exploited commercially after undergoing successful multicenter clinical trials, which are in progress." It's been 8 years without any published followup - what happened? (By the way, nice gotcha on the bacterial vs. fungal cultures, but your links on test-tube experiments still don't make the grade, regardless. Complex human systems are far different than a petri dish, and many more factors come into play).

"you follow up on an indeterminate situation by assuming that people are making guesses as to what it is"

Yes. Why not eliminate the guesswork and get an accurate diagnosis? Surely it's in posters' best inrerest to get professional help where needed, to arrive at an accurate diagnosis or to learn about treatment options. I know you have marked disdain for physicians, but people are not tied to following every recommendation they hear from a doctor. My take is that it's fine for adults to choose which path they want to take, but in their best interest to be truly informed first (rather than wasting time and money on an unproven treatment for a condition they may not have).

"My bottom line - plants (and bees) have evolved to produce plenty of antifungal substances, and applying such substances to non-life-threatening skin infections appears to be a reasonably effective manner of treating such infections."

Plants and bees also readily are sickened and/or die of fungal diseases, so the assumption that plant and bee-derived remedies should work doesn't seem like a "gimme", sorry.

    Bookmark   August 6, 2008 at 3:31PM
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apollog

Well, the second study I posted a link to might not be large enough and rigorous enough for you, yet for 50 patients "After the second week of treatment, all patients were KOH-negative" .... 100% demonstrated this objective sign of remission. 60% saw a full clearance of symptoms and healing during the study, the other 40% improved significantly, and 2 months after the course of medication was through, all were still in remission.

>> Plants and bees also readily are sickened and/or die of fungal diseases, so the assumption that plant and bee-derived remedies should work doesn't seem like a "gimme", sorry.

Your right that plants and bees in general do get fungal infections, but some are remarkably resistant, and the protective factors can be transferred to other plants or people via essential oils. Not every oil will work on every type of fungus, to be sure (different plants have different chemicals to provide protection against different pathogens). But herbalists do have a great deal to work with when it comes to skin fungi.

    Bookmark   August 6, 2008 at 6:23PM
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apollog

>> It's been 8 years without any published followup - what happened?

An excellent question, which I find myself asking all too often.

Here's another example:

In 1984, a team of researchers found that choline levels in the blood of people with cluster headaches was low - only about 50% of normal. That team published 3 articles that seemed to be variants of the same research in 1984 and 1986. Then for 20 years, silence.

Since choline is the essential precursor for the neurotransmitter acetylcholine, that should have raised some flags. Choline is also a methyl donor and is involved in hundreds of chemical reactions, including some essential for producing other neurotransmitters. It is also required for cell walls in the phosphatidyl form.

Did anyone bother to check if a choline supplement might bring relief to people suffering from one of the worst pains known to humans? No. Did they do studies to follow the obvious links to enzymes like protein kinase C? They did not.

Then in 2006, the topic was brought up again - using new highly sophisticated technology not available 20 years earlier, it was again proven that choline levels were lower in people with cluster headaches.

Maybe in another 20 or 40 years, the role of choline in cluster headaches will be addressed. Regardless, unless a topic is incredibly urgent (AIDS, etc) or unless a company pays for research on their product, there is no assurance that a particular study will be done anytime soon. It can be frustrating, but that is just the nature of the beast.

    Bookmark   August 6, 2008 at 9:24PM
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oakleif(z6 AR)

this link to NYT is especially for eric who thinks most people have access to health care and insinuates it's not much of a problem in US but should be addressed. Wanna bet he ignores this as he did my last post proving him wrong.

When in doubt change to witch doctor medicalease
that means nothing.That might possibly be an aggressive defence mechinism also.

Heres millions of reasons why people are changing to herbalism for good reason and they did'nt even study people on medicare.Who make so much less money and can't afford 20% of medical bills, plus the fact most doctors will not accept
people on medicare because they may not get that 20%

Here is a link that might be useful: Why Americans Should turn to Herbalism

    Bookmark   August 6, 2008 at 10:46PM
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oakleif(z6 AR)

Sorry, made a mistake. Will try again.

Here is a link that might be useful: Millions with Chronic Disease Get Little or No Help

    Bookmark   August 6, 2008 at 11:08PM
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rusty_blackhaw(6a)

In the case of the eucalyptus ointment, the study authors said the multicenter clinical trials were already in progress.

Eight years is a pretty long time for trials of a skin ointment to continue. There could be a number of reasons why nothing ever got published - participants could have dropped out of the study, funding might have been canceled...or maybe the ointment just didn't work in a larger trial.

As you've pointed out elsewhere, negative research results are less likely to be published. This bias potentially affects all types of research, including that into alternative remedies.

    Bookmark   August 7, 2008 at 12:19AM
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CallmeRachel

There are many ways to get rid of itchy skin naturally. Itchy skin disease also known as pruritus, it is a feeling that arises automatically makes a person want to scratch spontaneously. But the act of scratching can lead to something more severe the appearance of redness on the skin and scratches. Skin itching can be caused by various factors like allergies, insect bits etc.For the solution Superdrugsaver skin specialist suggest some home remedies to remove skin itchy , fungi problem. They recommend some tips related to use Yogurt is a common ingredient that helps you cure yeast infection.Oregano oil can be used in two ways for treating yeast infection. Firstly, apply the oil to the infected skin area and the second way is to take it directly / orally. Do not apply oregano oil directly on the skin as it may irritate your skin, so dilute oregano oil with olive oil before applying it on the infected area.Or else you can apply Aloe Vera flesh to itch part. Substance in the aloe vera not only can overcome the burn, but also itching. For itching due to fungi, including skin fungus and athlete's foot, you should immediately go to the doctor or dermatologist.

    Bookmark   March 7, 2014 at 7:19AM
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hilee

Not to start an argument or anything but I've noticed over and over again in these threads that no-one seems to mention one other factor. The environment. Perhaps things that come into contact with the affected areas, etc. should also be treated? While I am not saying that a person can keep a sterile environment, I am saying that you could treat the skin and keep getting reinfected with sheets, clothing, etc. that your skin comes in contact with frequently. Just a thought on my part...

    Bookmark   March 15, 2014 at 2:49PM
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