Since no one is supposed to comment in the other post on Apple Cider Vinegar other than saying whether it worked or not, I would like to know what you use it for. I've never used it so am very curious.
check out the section entitled "why does it work" - it is another apple cider vinegar discussion.
OK ... thanks, I found it. Whew ...
Use the apple cider vinegar from a health food store mix a teaspoon with water and zip on it threw day...you can have a few glasses per day...now you can add garlic to it also cayenne to it this also helps to make a powerful beverage for health reasons:If you take garlic and cayenne do it besides the zipping of the ACV drink
How much apple cider vinegar do you use?
I would say a teaspoon in a glass of water per day to start with.ACV is good for many things it is kinda like a cure all for many things...but it has to be the natural stuff with a mother in it?not store bought stuff.I suggest you to some more searching on this site or go to a health food store and buy a book on the subject cause there is a lot to say on this matter and much has been said?not everyone is seeing eye to eye on this issue anyway
What kind of mothers are in apple cider vinegar? >:)
A mother in ACV shows that it is a natural unrefined product and has a result has retained the original goodness of apples
The mother won't hurt you it is just something that keeps growing and ACV get stronger with age
Where I live, there aren't apple orchards.
I'm wondering where I could find info on making my own vinigar from some other fruit/berry/rhubarb/potatoe????? that would be as medicinal as apple cider vinigar.
Any ideas? Any sites on making vinigar?
the 'mother' is a yeast or a fungus? that excretes acetic acid...it's a mat that floats in a 'living' bottle of vinegar...I started mine with half the mother from a bottle of Dr Bragg's ACV, and now have a merlot vinegar, and a blueberry vinegar (I crushed the fruit, strained it into a jar, and added a bit of water to mostly fill the bottle, a little honey, and the mother)
To the person who wants to make a homemade vinegar:
apple cider vinegar has a different chemical formula than other vinegars. The others will not be as effective, if effective at all.
how does vinegar affect the bodies ph?
It doesn't affect your pH to any significant extent.
The acetic acid in vinegar is a very mild acid. The body's buffering systems easily maintain pH within a very narrow range when you ingest vinegar. You'd have to drink ungodly quantities of it (and get very sick) before you'd begin to make a difference in your body's pH.
Most of what's appeared in this forum regarding the supposed benefits of apple cider vinegar relates to unsupported claims for weight loss or help in "adjusting" body pH. But a lot of marketers are preying on consumer gullibility in claiming that cider vinegar is, well, pretty much good for whatever ails you.
From the 7/03 Consumer Health Digest of the National Council Against Health Fraud:
"Three apple cider vinegar marketers warned to curb claims.
The FDA has warned three Internet marketers of apple cider vinegar tablets to stop making claims that their products are effective against various diseases:
HCC DemoMarketing, LLC, of Germantown, Tennessee, was told to stop suggesting that its products are useful for arthritis, osteoperosis [sic], and sore throats.
Apple-Cider-Vinegar-Diet-Pills.Com, of Dayton, Ohio, was warned to stop claiming that their pills can relieve arthritis pain, fight infection, fight osteoporosis, control cholesterol, help people with high blood pressure, and relieves sore throats, laryngitis, and nasal congestion.
Sharon L. Bush, of Birmingham, Alabama, was warned to stop suggesting that her pills are useful against arthritis, prostate problems, multiple sclerosis, and high cholesterol levels."
While Internet scams involving this product are endless, cider vinegar tablets relieve none of these health problems.
I have found homemade wine vinegar to be equally effective. If there are no additives in wine, it will become vinegar when it goes off.
The linked article doesn't say that vinegar lowers blood sugar.
In the study (which included 10 patients with type II diabetes), the authors found that when vinegar was taken with a high carbohydrate meal, people's blood sugar didn't rise quite as high, and they were a little more sensitive to the effects of insulin (small but statistically significant effects). Conclusion: "Further investigations to examine the efficacy of vinegar as an antidiabetic therapy are warranted." So whether vinegar will have any value as a supplement for diabetes patients is still undetermined.
Incidentally, the effects of vinegar are thought to be due to acetic acid, which is present in ordinary vinegar. There's nothing magical about cider vinegar.
December 2002 I started drinking apple cider vinegar twice a day to lose weight. It wasn't even that much either. I ended up in the emergency room about 3 weeks later. I thought my appendix had errupted and my doctor said GO to the ER. It was terrible acid reflux (GERD) and I've had it ever since.
I totally blame apple cider vinegar. Use that stuff with caution!
Excuse me, that was December 2001. And btw, it wasn't just simple acid reflux. It was terrible. I feel like I almost died. Even water was making me dry heave and I had a terrible pain in my stomach like nothing I've ever felt before. The only thing I could keep down was a frosty from Wendy's, so I always tell people a frosty once saved my life.
And like I said, it has never gone away. I get acid reflux all the time still and I'd *never* had it before the vinegar. If you must use it, once you start getting nauseous, discontinue use because that's probably why.
So....How much ACV is a normal dosage?
I have used ACV since I was 20, that was 31 years ago. I used it first to grow my wisdom teeth in because my lymph glands under my chin kept swelling up. Now anytime someone here starts to get a cold and lymph swelling we start drinking ACV immediately. None of us have a weight problem so I don't know about that, but it sure works for infection. We don't mix it up with anything at all, we just drink it straight. We always just used the regular ACV from the grocery until recently. The one with the mother tastes a little better, and probably has more vitamins and minerals, but the other one works fine.
A tablespoon of apple cider vinegar in 10-12oz. glass of iced water is an amazing help for GI upset. (indigestion/bloating/cramping,etc.) Used to give it to the babies (with some sugar added to cut the sour) when they had a bout of diarrhea..very helpful.
I believe it is all the water you are now drinking instead of the coffee or beer as your only liquid intake. The vinegar to me is only a placebo...try drinking a bunch of water everyday ...see the toxins come out, your energy level go up, your organs work better, your brain feels clearer, water is very amazing as a use instead of asprin for headaches, minor headaches or headaches not cause by medical problems, just drink a large cup or tow of clean cool water...even hot water...
I dont believe in this vinegar diet...give it up. Use plain water instead or with out the vinegar and see the same results. Unless the vinegar spoils your appetite, then yes, you will eat less, less = less calories= less lbs on the body.
I don't know about the medical benefits of ACV, but it sparks up a glass of unfiltered apple juice. I just add a jigger or so to a glass of apple juice and enjoy. I never measure but I am sure that it is more than two teaspoons.
Hey rabbittmoon, hope you got some meds for your GERD. I'm a pharmacy student, and we had to cover some of the more common diseases.
Aside from taking your meds as your doctor prescribed, stay away from caffeine, peppermint, tomato, and citrus products. (Caffeine makes your stomach secrete more acid. Peppermint relaxes your esophageal sphincter; this is a valve that closes to keep your stomach contents where they belong. Tomatoes and citrus are acidic.) There are more foods to avoid (along with more info) at this link.
To keep the acid in your stomach, you can prop your bed up at an incline by putting some bricks under the bedposts near the headboard.
(Disclaimer: I am not a medical doctor, and the above is not a substitute for medical advice.)
I am in the process of trying Bragg's Organic Unfiltered Apple Cider Vinegar with the Mother to remedy my acid reflux problem. As a singer, this problem has been detrimental to my career. However, I've been mixing the vinegar with an equal amount of honey and 1 cup of water. does anyone know if the honey will weaken the effectiveness of the vinegar? I would truly appreciate any help... thank you everyone who has contributed to this forum. I found it very infomative and helpful.
I've had some really bad acid reflux and started using ACV, I felt better almost immediately. I was originally taking Nexium 80mg a day! Like you, I'm a singer as well and my throat was seriously hurting! Never had a problem until I reached my late 30's. My thinking is as we get older, less stomach acid is produced. So if you have a problem with too much acid, ACV probably won't work for you.
Be careful how you take it as Ive heard that 100% strength on the teeth has a corrosive effect on tooth enamel.
kevin... you heard from whom? the coca cola company?
that doesn't even make a little bit of sense- taken straight, food grade vinegar is rather less acidic than milk, coffee, or any carbonated beverage.
Actually, vinegar is more acidic than milk and coffee. Its use also is associated with a considerably higher risk of tooth enamel loss compared to soft drinks.
I am making some Cider Vinegar. I'd like to know what you've done to store it. I don't want to pasturize it. I figur ethat this kills the good stuff in it. I thought to clean the jugs that the cider came in and put it back in those. Would it be better to freeze it?
Sorry for the double post. Posted in the wrong forum.
can someone point me to the discussion on why avc works? i have tried really hard to find it with no results.
by the way my story is that i have reflux that i take a 20mg prisolec for everyday. i didn't like the idea of inhibiting pump receptors and also the fact that there is no long term studies really of the effects of these pills.
so i started searching until i found references to AVC. i was hesistant to take something that was acidic for my reflux but finally said what the heck. i did and amazingly it works. i am taking the supermarket brand that says diluted to 5 percent acidity. it's now been a week since i stopped the pills and no reflux. now to find something for my gastritis.
2 side effects of AVC that i must warn about. i used to have a problem with gall bladder stones so i am very familiar with the symptoms. i had my gall bladder removed 2-3 months ago and it was the best thing i could have done. anyway, drinking avc seems to stimulate bile production because i get a tiny little pain in the area where my gall bladder used to be. i am thinking the bile duct is probably contracting. so if you suffer from gall stones, i would think twice about using this. it might make you flush them out and there is the risk of one getting stuck in the bile duct. if you really want to flush out stones, i recommend you research a special diet that softens them up, and then try to flush them out.
the 2nd side effect is due to perspiration. i went to the gym to run my usual 8 miles on the treadmill and by the 3rd mile i was smelling a powerful unpleasant odor. i thought someone wasn't using deodarant. it finally dawned on me, that it was coming from me!!!!! I sweat a lot when I exercise and my shirt gets soaked. Apparently my perspiration concentrated like that was mixed with the vinegar and didn't smell good at all!!!!!
"can someone point me to the discussion on why avc works? i have tried really hard to find it with no results."
It's possible that a related discussion has dropped out of the archives due to age.
However, no satisfactory explanation of why ACV might be effective against acid reflux has ever been posted here. Others have wondered why a condition caused by acid backing up into the esophagus could be relieved by taking more acid.
There's also been no evidence showing that ACV does work, apart from isolated anecdotes.
I've cut back my AVC intake twice a day. In the morning when I wake up and in the evening before bed. It seems to have helped with the perspiration. I didn't stink up the gym yesterday :)
I know it's all anecdotal but I was curious to hear some theories as to why it works.
I am wondering if the body reacts to outside acidity by naturally dampening down it's own acid production?
Or is there a chemical reaction happening that makes AVC and stomach acids neutralize each other?
Or is it as some have theorized that some of us with reflux actually don't have enough acid in the stomach?
This would only make sense if it meant that by not having enough acid, food is decomposing (rottening)in our stomach creating gas which can then expand pushing the little bit of acidic content up the esophagus?
I would have been a skeptic also if it wasn't that AVC works. It's been now over a week without my medication. That is not a placebo effect. By now my chest would have been burning at night and I wouldn't have been able to sleep. For me the cluster of nerves that get irritated by the reflux produce all sorts of random symptoms and worst of all, provoke severe anxiety.
Also, this is not a cure. I've tried skipping the night dosage and by the time I wake up in the morning, I can feel the beginnings of the burning sensation. But it's one cheap natural alternative that I don't mind using until more is understood about reflux and surgical procedures become better and come down in cost.
In the area of acid reflux prevention through diet, here are some tips from the American Gastroenterological Association:
Tips to Control Heartburn (Reflux)
The following are general measures the patient can take to reduce reflux:
Avoid lying down right after eating and within two to three hours of bedtime.
Elevate the head of the bed four to six inches.
Lose weight if overweight.
Avoid eating large meals. Instead, eat smaller, more frequent meals.
Coffee and alcohol
Fried and fatty foods
Mint products (i.e., peppermint, spearmint)
Carbonated beverages, and citrus fruits or juices
Tomato sauce, ketchup, mustard and vinegar
Aspirin and most pain medicines (other than acetaminophen).
Obviously, different people will react to foods in varying ways, and just because a food is acidic doesn't necessarily mean it will worsen acid reflux.
But it's interesting that in general, vinegar is on lists of foods to avoid, not to ingest in extra amounts as a supposed cure.
Here is my experience with those tips:
1) I try not to eat before I go to bed, but the few times I have, I don't think it made a big difference.
2) I haven't elevated my bed so I can't comment on that.
3) I have lost 50 lbs in a little over 6 months. Didn't make a difference one bit. If I don't take medication every day, my reflux will spiral out of control.
4) I have never smoked.
5) Eating small meals makes sense. I try not to stuff myself when I eat. But when I do, I can't say it seemed to have made a big difference.
6) Not a big chocolate lover so I don't know if chocolate makes it worse.
7) Coffee and alcohol do make it worse. Lately I tried decaff and I can tolerate that.
8) Fried and Fatty food. I try not to eat this but when I do indulge I don't notice a difference.
9) Never tried Mint products.
AVC is still working for me. I wish I knew why.
This is why I wanted to stop taking these PPIs.
It's only a matter of time before some serious side effects are discovered due to long term usage.
Diet/lifestyle changes (as noted earlier) should always be considered the front-line approach for treating acid reflux.
Side effects with any drug therapy (pharmaceutical or herbal) have to be balanced against the symptoms and long-term risks associated with reflux (i.e. adenocarcinoma of the esophagus).
By the way, it's interesting that one of the authors of the study suggesting a possible link between anti-acid drugs and a type of bowel infection is a consultant for AstraZeneca, which makes some of these drugs. Did Evil Pharma slip up here? ;)
Here is an update. I went away for 3 days for xmas and decided to try the AVC pills since they are easy to carry around versus a bottle. These pills worked just as well. Since the liquid form is probably absorbed quicker and even cheaper than the pills, I will just leave the pills for when I travel.
I have to say that I haven't felt this good since my early twenties (I'm now in my late thirties).
Maybe it's the psychological effect of knowing I no longer have to take medication with unknown long term effects. Or maybe the vinegar is providing my body with something it was deficient in that is allowing it to function better.
I used to feel strange aches and pains and weird sensations in my body that have all but disappeared.
My digestive system has improved tremendously. I can now pretty much eat anything without worrying that I would have to run to the bathroom. Before I couldn't drink water on an empty stomach without my stomach getting upset. I couldn't drink liquids with my meals because of the same reason. Now I drink a glass of water as soon as I wake up with no problems. I can drink liquid with my meals with no issues.
My appetite is back. I now once again know the pleasure of being hungry again. I can actually enjoy that sensation of craving food, instead of eating because it was time to eat something knowing it would probably send me running to the bathroom. Sexually my libido is up again. Nice to see an attractive woman and feel an instant primordal reaction.
These things make you feel alive and part of the universe.
I am now wondering if I was too quick to take out my gall bladder. I was too chicken to try and pass the stones naturally but I am now thinking I should have given it a chance. Well at least one advantage is that it's one less organ to get diseased.
After reading that, I was tempted to ask if your hair had grown back, too.
Then I did a little search, and by God, cider vinegar is good for hair loss. This site lists the conditions cider vinegar treats:
EYES (TIRED AND SORE)
HIGH BLOOD PRESSURE
KIDNEYS AND BLADDER
NOSE - STUFFY
FOR A BATH
Note that it cures both weight loss and weight gain!
I don't see it listed as a cure for cancer, but a Google search does indeed find it cited elsewhere as anticancer therapy.
Obviously no other herb or pharmaceutical drug is needed. Immortality is within our grasp. :)
You have to keep in mind that everything is interelated. By helping me with my acid reflux I am sleeping better. By keeping the acid reflux in check it probably allowed my stomach to settle down so I can hold down food and drink more water. By sleeping better, drinking more water, and eating better I get more out of my exercise regimen. Better exercise brings another host of benefits. By not feeling sick all the time my state of mind improves and we all now that is a powerful factor in well being.
So I can see how people can link a whole bunch of things to AVC.
I am so impressed with AVC I am going to start researching more supplements. I'm sure you've seen the news on the recent studies on Vitamin D. Reality is that in today's modern world it's impossible to eat a balanced diet.
By the way, I didn't want to mention it, but my toenails do seem to be looking better these days ;)
I'm still confused about ACV as a remedy for silent reflux or GERD. Why would something acidic help...wouldn't you want something more basic, alkaline? Anyway I am desperate for help so I decided to try it. I wasn't able to find braggs so I got heinz-not sure if this is a worser type or not but immediately I felt a bit nauseaus. How much do you guys use to dilute with water? I think I'll have to try apple juice instead. This stuff tastes aweful! Maybe the pills would be better for me?
Does ACV work if it is just used like regular vinegar (in salads, etc.)? I want my dad to try it for his blood pressure but I don't want to end up harming him by telling him to drink it or take pills.
Vinegar doesn't affect blood pressure.
The salads might help if there's need for a weight-reducing plan.
My issue appears to be that as I consume food the alkaline bile refluxes into the stomach causing my stomach to make more acid to raise the PH in hope of breaking down the food. Somewhat of an endless circle when consuming and digesting food. I don't believe bile reflux is extremely common but it is one of the theories as to why GERD occurs.
If I had to guess (and I am not a medical doctor merely very familiar with my own problem) ACV seems to trick my stomach into stopping the addition creation of more acid and/or possibly triggering the sphincter into closing better...
ACV definitely improves my symptoms without requiring long-term PPI treatment.
Bile reflux does happen - but it's a small percentage of reflux sufferers, tends to be associated with conditions like peptic ulcers and previous surgery, and often coexists with acid reflux.
Since the stomach pH is generally quite low to begin with, even with some bile refluxing into it, it's hard to see how drinking a mild acid substance like vinegar would have any effect on stomach pH. The worry again is that even mild acid has potential for damaging the esophagus.
As I've noticed, reflux symptoms tend to come and go and severity varies a lot, so it's hard to validate any home remedy based on isolated testimonials.
I have been taking ACV now since 2004. My regime is to take about 1 tablespoon Mixture of ACV and Honey first thing when I get up. I take it with a Glass of warm water. Then go about making Bfast etc. I have noticed fewer colds, less Low Bloodsugar episodes, bloodtests show lowered cholesterol levels (although still high-ish)
In general I feel it a very positive and very natural regime.
I don't know if ACV is good for any thing except salad dressings, but drinking it still has to be safer than coke products lol
Coke is somewhat acidic (though less so than the acid normally in your stomach) and soft drinks in general may worsen reflux symptoms in some people. This doesn't mean that drinking vinegar (which is mostly acetic acid) is a good idea either.
Numerous old stories about Coca-Cola being hazardous (supposedly having the power to dissolve teeth etc.) have turned out to be urban legends.
"Do I have that about right?" No.
I have never suggested that anyone who believes in cider vinegar as a remedy is "nuts", only that there is no real evidence that it does anything useful - only testimonials, pro and con.
"It would seem to me that the scientific method requires the scientist to make personal observations, a kind of testimonial if you will, about the hypothesis being tested."
Testimonials, even those coming from scientists, are not reliable. Controlled studies in large groups of people are what scientific method requires, and even those need to be repeated to make sure the results are accurate.
I have had periods of acid reflux, but in the past couple of months very few symptoms. The only thing different recently is that I've had quite a few Xmas treats, including stollen. Maybe I should claim that eating stollen is good for acid reflux. I suspect, though, that it's coincidence, the same as for people who think cider vinegar is effective for reflux. Reflux symptoms come and go, and it's easy to give credit or blame to something that doesn't have anything to do with the problem.
I think edennc misunderstands Occam's Razor (OR). OR is not some immutable law, but an observation that simple explanations generally are more likely to be correct than complicated ones. If OR has any value at all in this instance, it is to suggest that rather than a complicated explanation for cider vinegar's supposed value (that drinking a mild acid helps a condition caused by acid), the likely explanation for it seeming to help is coincidence, as mentioned earlier.
My mom gave me Dr. Jarvis' book "Vermont Folk Medicine" sort of as a joke on our annual visit to the Vermont Country Store this year. It has been laying around the house now for a couple of months and I recently picked it up and I have to admit (rather ashamedly--I do so have a little crush on Eric's logical and sardonic approach to the other post on ACV) that I found it so inspiring! I had a bad cold and sinus infection and as I was reading the book one morning I began to determine that I would try ACV and honey immediately. I also read in the book about weight loss, and while according to Dr. Jarvis' Vermont calculations I am already at my ideal weight, I was intrigued. About six years ago I had the same sort of response to the silly (and yet, oddly spot-on) book "Eat Right for Your Type" book on blood types and healthful eating. I've been doing the vinegar doseage (2tsp 3x daily) for almost a week and one thing that I have noticed is increased energy. I am a chef at a gourmet take-out shop where we not only cook but clean our shop daily, and by the end of the day I'm usually using the mop as a crutch. After the vinegar (Eric! Forgive me!) I've been traipsing it around the floor like I'm dancing with Fred Astaire. My co-workers are calling me the bionic woman. I don't know about weight loss. Probably since I don't have anything I really need to lose, I won't notice anything in that area, but I'll let anyone know.
Well, according to the link I posted earlier in this thread, cider vinegar is good for both weight loss and weight gain, so anything could happen.
The site also claims that cider vinegar relieves fatigue and nervousness, so all bases are covered there as well.
Or maybe you're experiencing a sugar high from the honey. :)
Eric, looking at all your examples of extremes, perhaps apple cider vinegar is a neutralizer.
Here's an interesting commentary on acid-base balance (belief vs. reality).
Perhaps one of the benefits is the potassium and other minerals found in the ACV that are readily absorbed into the system in balanced proportion for easy assimilation. Potassium is often lacking in the diet and us necessary for many internal processes.
I too have done personal tests with ACV, raw honey and cayenne at the onset of any sickness- be it that or other lifestyle choices, I know not- but I either do not get sick or am well much sooner than anyone else around me that gets the same bug (like 1 night versus 1 week flu).
I don't know abt the proof of interior use of acetic acid. I recently developed bursitus and was sent for phisacal therapy at hospital where they used acedic acid on small pads and applied small electrodes as therapy for the pain and then heat pads with acetic acid pads still in place. It did wonders.
What oakleif mentions sounds like iontophoresis, where an electrical current is used to help in absorption of drugs into soft tissues. Acetic acid (the acid in vinegar) has been employed in this way to try to decrease calcium deposits in some conditions - with variable results.
This isn't something you can do at home, though (although heating pads, which can relieve pain are available at drugstores).
Here is a link that might be useful: Iontophoresis
I was hoping the person who starting getting acid reflux after taking the ACV had found a solution. I have taken ACV with water and honey for 3 days and have been experiencing terrible acid reflux...which I never had before...it's terrible and am open to any suggestions to help.
Stop taking it?
Haha! I did stop taking it...the day I posted. It took until this morning for the acid reflux problem to stop. Hopefully it will not come back.
Some think that the logical solution to having too much acid in the stomach is to take something to reduce the acid. But the body's likely reaction to a influx of basic (anti-acid) materials would seem to be to create more acid, exactly what you don't want.
So it makes some sense that by providing a dose of acid now and again would limit the production of additional acid, since the body knows that acid is already present.
A good movie, not a documentary as far as I know, but illustrative of the concept, is Lorenzo's Oil.
The general concept of the movie is that Lorenzo has a disease where a certain type of food oil in anything but minimal amounts causes severe destruction to his brain. The initial approach adopted by doctors was to reduce the food inputs of this type of oil. Initial results were promising, but soon his body starting producing more of the oil itself (to correct the balance), and his condition worsened. His parents did some research and came up with an idea, give Lorenzo massive doses of another type of food oil, so that his body would stop producing the bad kind of oil.
Its an interesting point of view and worth thinking about at least.
I also included a link to a fable that illustrates this point more simply.
Here is a link that might be useful: Persuasion is better than force.
The logic behind diets to limit reflux is that certain foods or beverages either stimulate acid production in the stomach, or may irritate an already damaged esophagus (the tube leading to the stomach).
Vinegar of all kinds is a relatively mild acid that hasn't been shown to significantly affect acid production in the stomach. What it may do if taken in large amounts is irritate the lining of the esophagus, especially if there's esophageal damage already from highly acidic gastric contents refluxing back into the esophagus.
It's not good to take frequent doses of antacids long term, not because it will have a dramatic rebound effect on acid production in the stomach, but because it could potentially cause diarrhea and other problems.
Vinegar in small amounts in the diet is fine (see recommendations here). There's just no evidence that it does anything beyond possibly hurting the esophagus, which is the source of acid reflux pain.
Can I just make it clear to everyone that apple cider vinegar does in no way cause weight loss. The acid from the vinegar does not help 'melt fat away', as some diets claim. If anything the acid would actually help break down fats - making them easier for the body to absorb. Apple cider vinegar does not cause weight loss. The end.
In one study, cider vinegar pills were analyzed and some manufacturers' products were found to have little or no vinegar components.
Even if this company's supplement contains what they claim it does, the fact that it's making false claims for the product gives you good reason to steer clear of them.
It is possible to cause acidosis through taking too much apple cider vinegar. A symptom for acidosis would be extreme bad breath. The solution would be to reduce the amount of acv consumed.
During perimenopause I experienced a yeast outbreak. I spoke to a field biologist friend about my problem with the yeast, because seeing a doctor had been less than satisfactory. One thing the biologist suggested was to take a tsp. of apple cider vinegar in water. (I had a long-term outbreak of yeast in the creases where my legs join my body--very painful.) The man also suggested daily application of rubbing alcohol on the affected areas to kill the yeast. His advice worked. I finally conquered that nasty yeast.
The biologist, by the way, had Arabian horses. One of his horses was prone to kidney stones. A new vet said that the horse needed apple cider vinegar poured onto his feed to prevent the formation of the kidney stones. The owner followed the vet's advice, and the horse never had another kidney stone.
Here's a good discussion of common misconceptions about acid-base balance in the human body.
Wouldn't it be lovely if ACV in a glass of water twice a day rid us of excess pounds. I'm disgusted by the people who claim in this thread they've lost 5-14 lbs in a week using ACV pills. This is just BS. If they lost any weight at all, it's water weight, not fat. It takes a lot of energy to lose a pound of fat. If one consumes fewer calories than one burns one may lose 1-2 lbs every seven days. But that's diligently restricting calories and exercising i.e. getting your heart rate up and sweating and panting for at least 30 minutes a day. At least. There are no quick fixes.
Personally I love my organic ACV. I use it in salads and in my bath water. Occasionally I have a glass (gives me a nice tingle). I'm sure it's not hurting me, and probably does contribute to my well being. But when I gain weight it's because I'm consuming too much and not exercising enough, ACV or no ACV.
There is no doubt that acetic acid is one of the things in vinegar, but it would be premature to reduce vinegar to merely an acetic acid solution, Eric. Red wine is not merely a dilute ethanol solution; it has other ingredients that have important pharmacological effects.
Fermented vinegar likely contains other products related to the Krebs cycle. When the starting solution is apple cider, there may be significant amounts of quercetin and quercetrin or metabolically activated versions of those chemicals. As a probiotic/fermented food, it may have significant amounts of bacterial protein that may influence the immune system (there are a number of studies that show that fermented foods appear to lower the risk of respiratory infections in children).
Distilled vinegar, the most common type in the stores, is distilled from petroleum or natural gas. It is unlikely that such imitation vinegar (vinegar meaning 'sour wine') is a significant source of probiotic proteins or complex organic molecules. It has acetic acid, and might have a few related simple compounds, depending on how it is distilled.
Here's an interesting article that found that acetate, butyrate and propionate are all anti-inflammatory compounds, and that they may be of use in treating inflammatory bowel disease. Acetic acid is acetate, and naturally fermented vinegar contains signficant amounts of butyrate and propionate (in many fermented foods, the amount of butyric+propionic acids = 1/3 or 1/2 the amount of acetic acid that is present).
Here is a link that might be useful: Anti-inflammatory Properties of Acetate, Butyrate and Propionate
Lots of maybes and could bes in there.
I see all kinds of vinegar in the stores - wine vinegars, cider vinegars, vinegar with herbs, plain unfancy vinegar etc. The only thing that seems to be special about apple cider vinegar is that a folksy country doctor-type wrote a book decades ago extolling it as a wonder cure for arthritis and various other things, and the bandwagon pretty much got rolling from there.
There is nothing to show that cider vinegar has more "good stuff" in it than other vinegars, or that any particular ingredients are present in the right form and quantity to treat any kind of disease.
As wonder nostrums go, it's fairly cheap and reasonably safe, if you don't overdo it. The real harm is mostly when people see it as a shortcut to whatever health goal they have (reducing reflux, losing weight etc.), and use it in place of the lifestyle and diet changes that actually have a good chance of being effective.
Yes, there should be lots of maybes and maybes. The world is complex and it hasn't been adequately studied by science.
But the paper I linked to (you can get the full text from a link on the abstract) actually does state that solutions containing butyrate and propionate have been successfully used to treat inflammatory bowel disease. If we accept the idea that vinegar is a generic equivalent, and that the acetate also has similar properties, then it merely becomes an issue of establishing an adequate, tolerable dose. If people with subclinical conditions and minor aches and pains can get relief from adding a dollop of vinegar to their diet, I say great.
As far as distinguishing between cider vinegar and other forms of vinegar, I don't think that is nearly as important a distinction as between real (fermented) vinegars and the imitation stuff that .
"Yes, there should be lots of maybes and maybes. The world is complex and it hasn't been adequately studied by science."
That's what science is for - reducing the ifs and maybes. If cider vinegar enthusiasts can come up with something besides anecdotes (which cut both ways), terrific.
When it comes to something as important as one's health, taking chances based on ifs and maybes doesn't make sense.
Sure, real science is about reducing the uncertainty. But dismissing things out of hand is not science.
Vinegar enthusiasts 'have come up with something more than anecdotes'?? I just provided a solid study that shows that vinegar contains three anti-inflammatory substances that have successfully been used to treat IBD. They reduce a number of cytokines that are over-expressed in arthritis, psoriasis, and other diseases.
Your response? FUD - fear, uncertainty, doubt. Not based on any evidence, but based on the fact that science hasn't gotten around to looking at those issues, combined with a preconceived notion that it must be nonsense to begin with.
Does it help with psoriasis or arthritis? I don't know. The studies aren't there. But there is a very plausible mechanism that might account for some of these anecdotes that vinegar helps with arthritis. What are the guidelines for using anti-inflammatory foods to treat arthritis or a headache or some other condition? Lots of research out there on various dietary approaches to common complaints, but individual response varies and science doesn't hold all the answers.
Sensible stuff, apollog. I worked at the University of California Berkeley for twenty-seven years. I saw first-hadn how studies can be skewed both for reasons political and because a researcher didn't do good thinking in setting up the premise for the research.
For example, one Ph.D. in Optometry began a study on peripheral vision deterioration in older folks. As he told me about the premise for his new study, I inquired why he hadn't thought about the effect of eye exercises on peripheral vision? He looked at me blankly. I demonstrated a couple of eye exercises, and explained to him that these exercises had increased my peripheral vision. (I was in my thirties at that time.) The doctor was dumbfounded. He thanked me, and said he was going to have to rethink things. Mentioning that his first step would be to try the exercises himself.
Many times studies are so narrowly focused that they prove worthless in the long run. The fact that numerous factors were not considered eventually comes to light, causing negation of the original findings.
"I just provided a solid study that shows that vinegar contains three anti-inflammatory substances that have successfully been used to treat IBD."
The study abstract you linked to refers to measurement of certain compounds in tissue cultures from mice. It does not show that these compounds can be used to treat inflammatory bowel disease in humans. It doesn't even show that they are useful to treat the mouse equivalent of IBD. It also doesn't mention vinegar.
When you see a supplement touted as being effective based on a "scientific study", it pays to look closely at what that study really involves. Studies that are not based on well-designed human clinical trials are not to be trusted as tools for marketing supplements or drugs.
Your response? FUD - fear, uncertainty, doubt.
You can label it that if you wish. Lots of people long for a magic bullet that will cure all manner of ills. Having seen lots of of diets and supplement pills promoted this way and then fallen by the wayside, I maintain a healthy skepticism where evidence is lacking.
By the way, exercises have a very limited role in helping eye problems. Exercise-based eye quackery flourishes, though.
Actually, the study says "Importantly, several clinical studies demonstrate beneficial effects of butyrate in IBD."
And then it goes on to demonstrate that acetate and propionate have similar effects.
No, it doesn't mention vinegar. Just acetate, butryate and propionate, which are the primary ingredients of vinegar. Should we assume that this generic form of AcBuPr has none of the effects of the stuff studied in the lab? I thought an article of faith among the medical community is that the generic form of a chemical is equivalent to any proprietary form - that once the effects of a chemical are proved, it doesn't matter where it comes from provided it is the same stuff.
I'm not marketing miracle vinegar products - I'm interested whether ordinary vinegar from the supermarket might be useful for my health. Given the lack of patentability for vinegar, I don't think we'll soon see the type of large scale, double-blind, placebo controlled studies on humans that you deem essential.
Here's a link to an interesting study that found that short chained fatty acids like AcBuPr increase leptin production. I'm not saying that Pompei Brand Red Wine Vinegar is a miracle weight loss product, but the possibility of changing the body's chemistry to produce more leptin (which signals satiety and reduces eating) might be a good thing. Given the cost and safety associated with adding a bit of vinegar to my evening salad instead of adding ranch or blue cheese dressing, I just might give it a try. Even in the absence of conclusive proof.
It won't negate other principles of dieting (like eating less) but it just might make it easier to eat less.
Here is a link that might be useful: Inverse regulation of leptin mRNA expression by short- and long-chain fatty acids in the cultured bovine adipocytes.
I'm not sure where you're getting the conclusions about IBD to which you refer (the abstract you linked to doesn't mention them), but assuming there eventually turns out to be a significant role for these compounds in treating inflammatory bowel disease:
We'd still need evidence they are present in sufficient amounts in vinegar (any kind of vinegar) to be medically useful in inflammatory bowel disease.
We'd also need to know if these substances would be broken down in the body by digestion so that they'd be useless in treating IBD.
It could be that these substances are present in other foods in greater concentrations and more available forms than in vinegar.
And so on.
Lots of ifs and maybes.
Of course, treating inflammatory bowel disease is not the reason people have jumped on the cider vinegar bandwagon (obesity and arthritis are two of the more common conditions for which people drink it, although there are claims for virtually any disease process you could mention). There's still no good evidence the stuff works on IBD, obesity, arthritis, or any of the other "subclinical conditions and minor aches and pains" for which you're promoting it.
"Given the lack of patentability for vinegar, I don't think we'll soon see the type of large scale, double-blind, placebo controlled studies on humans that you deem essential. "
This overlooks the vast amount of research that's been done and is still ongoing on non-patentable drugs and supplements, such as aspirin, vitamins, black cohosh, St. John's Wort etc etc.
The study you cited on butyrate et al, by the way, was produced by people affiliated with AstraZeneca. Since you can't patent a short-chain fatty acid like butyrate, why's Big Pharma doing research on it? Mystery of mysteries...
Oh, and by the way - the medical and scientific community shies away from assumptions and articles of faith. It's one major factor separating evidence-based medicine from alt. med.
Very few institutions would fund a study which would prove that something as simple and inexpensive as apple cider vinegar actually does this, that or the other. Science has become a capitalistic enterprise. Many old-school scientists believe that funding has become a moral and ethical dilimma. The faculty at UC Berkeley holds debates on the subject. Sadly, the bottom line is that the people holding the purse strings, the funding agencies, ultimately have the most power.
The Department of Chemistry at UC Berkeley is now largely funded by oil companies. The folks providing the funding get to choose what studies are done, and how those studies will be conducted. The funders can prevent proven results from being reported, if it does not suit their purpose. That is a form of skewing reports or data, which is definitely not in the best interest of the public.
Drug companies have a vested interest in keeping the public on prescription drugs. They don't want people to be able to cure themselves with herbal remedies, or natural substances. Herbal remedies cut into the profits of the drug companies because herbals cannot be controlled by drug companies.
Marijuana can cure glaucoma, but the drug companies cannot control marijuana because it is easily grown. In most cases of natural substances, which have been declared unlawful, the drug companies are behind those laws having been put on the books. Laetril is another example.
According to a film I saw in the early 70s, "Detail Men", which refers to the drug company employees who promote drugs to the medical profession, drug companies are no longer doing research which would result in a cure for anything. The focus is on researching drugs which people will take for life. For instance, there will never be a cure for diabetes, because insulin is a big money maker. Why would drug companies want to provide a cure, when that would undermine their profit base? Hypertension drugs are another big money maker, as are the cholesterol drugs.
Studies have been published which state that the drug companies control the medical schools and the curriiculum. Therefore, they control what doctors are taught to believe and to prescribe. There is a mavrick group called Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine (PCRM). PCRM provides some interesting reports, much of which contradicts what the AMA espouses or endorses.
"Very few institutions would fund a study which would prove that something as simple and inexpensive as apple cider vinegar actually does this, that or the other."
As indicated in my previous post, lots of studies have been and are being done on a large range of supplements and "natural" therapies by major institutions. This includes herbs. The National Cancer Institute (via the National Center on Complementary and Alternative Medicine) is spending millions of dollars on research. The amount of money out there available for medical research is finite, and naturally the most promising therapies are most likely to get funding support. Sometimes alternative/traditional/folklore remedies are supported by research. Often they are not. One can choose to believe that the underlying reason is a conspiracy by the Medical Establishment, or accept that folklore is often wrong.
Other statements in lorna's last post are well beyond the scope of apple cider vinegar, but I'll briefly mention that marijuana does not "cure" glaucoma, regulations banning sale of certain "natural substances" are in effect because they are useless and/or dangerous, not because of evil Big Pharma, and laetrile has fallen into deserved obscurity, because it is ineffective against cancer.
The link listed below is a good source of information on the abundant research currently being done on unpatentable herbs and supplements.
Here is a link that might be useful: PubMed
You have no proof of your statements about laetril or marijuana, Eric. The tone of your delivery is meant to belittle my opinion, experience and knowledge. What makes you behave that way?
I've done my homework in well-rounded fashion. I know that the drug companies have curtailed helpful substances because of vested interest, and that reporting and research can be skewed.
A scientific survey is worded to produce desired results. Research protocol is designed to produce desired results.
Disinformation is just as prevalent in society as real information. I know this from personal experience in a major university environment.
I've seen famous scientists exhibit jealousy, resulting in back-stabbing techniques aimed at undermining the work and/or credibility of their colleagues. As you point out, Eric, funding sources are limited. When a number of scientists are going after a limited amount of funding, some of them are going to play down and dirty in an effort to be the one who wins the funding.
I've seen one famous researcher brought to his knees by the Feds because of conducting wrongful research. His arrogant malfeasance cost the entire university research community dearly. I've also seen scientists support each other. Some of my favorites are paleo-anthropologists who research the origins of man, and natural history field biologists.
I daresay, Eric, you have not spent a career working in a major university. I have twenty-seven years of university experience. I daresay you do not have experience working in the medical field. I have eight years hands-on experience. Clearly you do not have a background in herbal study. I have thirty-six years of herbal study and experience. (I am fifty-four years old.) When I do research, I evalulate all sides of an issue. I do not jump on the first thing which apparently supports what I would prefer to believe. It is in my best interest to properly evaluate all pros and cons.
I very much appreciate the thoughtful approach many posters take to exploring an issue. I enjoy discussing things. I appreciate an exchange of information, opinions, ideas and experience. I thank those of you who conduct yourselves with the purpose of sharing information, thoughtfulness, good grace, and civility. You folks make my day!
Marijuana does not "cure" glaucoma. (there's limited evidence that it has a short-term effect on intraocular pressure, but is not a cure).
"I daresay, Eric, you have not spent a career working in a major university."
My career includes being on the faculty of a major university.
"I daresay you do not have experience working in the medical field."
I'm a practicing physician.
"Clearly you do not have a background in herbal study."
Sorry, I couldn't resist responding to your appeal to authority. However, that tack (along with espousing conspiracy theories and personally attacking other posters) tends to go over poorly in this forum. What impresses most people is good solid evidence.
There is a proper way to use ACv that is beneficial too good health it raises your pH level and mineralizes your body!
In a 12oz glass of water, preferably filtered or distilled ass one tblspn of ACV ,one tblspn of BSM(blackstrap molasses a pinch or two of Magnesium Sulphate(epsom salts)
and Coral Calcium in the amount you desire!
This is a tried and true energy drink that may bring you amazinf results if you give it time! Some see results immediatly ,others it may take a week or two! Drink it slowly at first sipping it through out the day !
There are many sutudies that show the value and nutritional value of ACV and these other ingredience these just two below!
Scientists have measured 90 different bioactive substances in ACV, such as 13 types of carbolic acids, four aldehydes, 20 ketones, 18 types of alcohols and eight ethyl acetates. ACV provides enzymes and important minerals and trace elements such as potassium, calcium, magnesium, phosphorous, chlorine, sodium, sulfur, copper, iron, silicon, fluorine and other trace minerals. ACV's vitamin content includes vitamin C, vitamin E, vitamin A, vitamin B1, vitamin B2, vitamin B6, beta-carotene and vitamin P (bioflavonoids). ACV also contains malic acid, acetic acid, tartaric acid, propionic acid, lactic acid, numerous enzymes and amino acids, as well as roughage in the form of potash and apple pectin.
The secret of ACV's amazing nutritional value goes beyond the nutritious apples that form its basis and comes from the fermentation of apple juice to hard apple cider, followed by a second fermentation to ACV itself. This natural product retains all the nutritional goodness of the apples from which it was made, and it's also fortified with the extra acids and enzymes produced during the two fermentation steps. It's the sum of all these ingredients that give ACV its amazing health benefits. Be aware that if you choose to buy white distilled vinegar, it has none of these beneficial constituents
I tried to edit my message for spelling error and tried to repost twice and was rejected! This is the most rediculous forum to navigate I have ever been on ! I doubt I will post here again! I apologize for the spelling errors! I have tried to post my message now six or seven times and was either deleted or rejected! Good luck folks to those who try to post on this forum!
There's no edit function available to users to correct posts. You could request one in the Suggestions forum.
"Apple cider vinegar is anything but a storehouse of nutrients. A nutritional analysis of one tablespoon (more than the one or two teaspoons suggested to make a tonic) reveals that the golden liquid contains less than a gram of carbohydrate: minuscule amounts of calcium, iron, magnesium, sodium. copper, manganese, and phosphorus; and a mere 15 mg of potassium. The fiber, vitamin, and amino acid content is zero."
eric and opollo
I have been able to buy cloudy cider vinegar at the grocery store. It is alot cheaper and works just as well. I mix 1 tsp. of cider vinegar with 1 teaspoon of honey. I'm surprised I like the taste of it! It has to be cloudy to have the Mother in it...alive with the healing powers.
What cloudy bacteria is "alive" with is bacteria (the same ones that convert alcohol in wine to acetic acid) that are creating a carbohydrate byproduct. The cloudy gunk is called "the mother" because it can be used to make more vinegar.
Interestingly, cooks who see it are mostly concerned that it will impair the taste of their vinegar, but it can be removed.
"Some vinegars, if stored improperly or too long, will develop a cloudy look. This cloudy substance (called "mother of vinegar" since it can be used to make more vinegar) can be filtered out with a paper coffee filter in order to salvage the vinegar. However, if either the mother or the vinegar smells bad or rotten, discard both immediately."
we have found the mother in store bought vinegar. Just look for cloudiness that means it is alive. Somehow it misses the process to eliminate it! When I drink 1 tablespoon of apple cider vinegar with 1 tablespoon on honey and about 1/2 cup of hot water my joint pain goes away. We used to always buy Bragg's apple cider vinegar at the health food store, but we have found if you can find cloudy apple cider vinegar at the grocery store it works the same and it is a heck of alot cheaper!
My grandmother used to take acv for whatever "ailed" her. There are so many posts... good for you, not good for you! Helps to lose weight. Don't help! I started sipping on some yesterday. I have Lupus, hypothyroidism, diabetes, degenerative arthritis and have lots of pain. I guess I'll just see for myself...how it works!
Billyboy posted, "I am in the process of trying Bragg's Organic Unfiltered Apple Cider Vinegar with the Mother to remedy my acid reflux problem. As a singer, this problem has been detrimental to my career. However, I've been mixing the vinegar with an equal amount of honey and 1 cup of water. does anyone know if the honey will weaken the effectiveness of the vinegar? I would truly appreciate any help... thank you everyone who has contributed to this forum. I found it very infomative and helpful."
Two tablespoons each of ACV and honey in a glass of water is an old folk remedy for whatever ails ya. I grew up drinking it, and I'm still drinking it in my 60s. I am in ridiculously good health.
hi neighbor! i'm an herb and gardening fanatic from the ozarks too, nw arkansas, but living in colorado for a couple years while doing an apprenticeship here. even tho i'm enjoying my time in the rockies sure do miss my ozark home. where are you located?
ps gardening here at high altitude with low annual rainfall is proving challenging, everything dries out so quickly. the bright side (pun intended) is that plants love the intense sunlight we have up in the mountains.
One thing to remember about ACV and other home remedies is that they have been effective for thousands of years, and in my book that's a lot of empirical evidence, AKA science. Think of "modern drugs," such as the lowly aspirin based on the biochemistry of Willow Bark, in many cases are pharmacological equivalents of these natural medicines.�
As someone pointed out, modern medicines (and their drug company manufacturers) are motivated by profit. Synthesizing natural components allows these folks to use the empirical history of these common folk medicines to produce safe drugs that they can fancy up with a quasi Latin/Greek/Utopian name and call it a breakthrough: Avandia, Lyrika, etc �
There's a wonderful book out there titled Anti-Cancer: A New Way of Life by David Servan-Schreiber. He explains the biology of cancer. Simply put, �the body becomes "inflamed" (think arthritis, infections, bad colds), weakening the body. In this environment, wild cancer cells which we all have (and more created all the time by environmental carcinogens as "free radicals") settle down in weak parts of the inflamed body. The microtumors then start to grow, especially helped by high blood sugar.�
Servan-Schreiber explains the profound effect of diet in this process, namely that the Western high fat-high carb/sugar/high salt diet produces many of the preconditions of cancer and that eating foods that have anti-inflammatory and free radical-controlling properties can nip cancers in the bud and even reduce tumors' size. He explains the biochemistry of these factors and HOW they work.�
My point is that these long-lived "home remedies" can work, including ACV, by balancing the body so that our diseases of excess can be mitigated.�
Yes, everyone's results may differ. This goes with any allopathic medication as well.�
For me, ACV has already (positively) affected my blood sugar and energy level. My daughter has been using it and it cleared up her acne. I'm hopeful about the weight loss and other benefits, realizing some of tge benefits may take a while.�
On another note, the book Sugar Blues documents the transformation of beet/cane sugar from luxury item (1600s through ca. mid-1800s) to increasingly available (industrialization + British imperialism/trade) general food enhancer. In the late 1800s sugar was declared to be a poison, probably because of all those rotten teeth, diabetes, and other side effects. Then - surprise, surprise - the sugar lobby (probably one of the first with all those tropical perqs - cheap labor, rich tropical land, etc.) had thaw law reversed. Soon the Western world was awash in candy, cheap pastries (think: twinkles, those nasty artificial mass produced chocolate chip cookies) and sugar enhanced foods (ketchup, hot dogs, French fries, etc.).�
So when in doubt grow your own food and make it yourself. Ever tasted a sun-warmed tomato? �There is absolutely no resemblance to the hard, flavorless things in the grocery store. I just made a (sooooo simple) batch of pickles, nothing like what Safeway has to offer.�
The point is if you make it or grow, your food doesn't need all that sugar, salt, and fat to make it taste good. �Trust your own taste buds and don't trust those seductive dietary demons.�
Sent from my iPod
"Yes, everyone's results may differ. This goes with any allopathic medication as well."
What about aspirin (not to mention lots of other "allopathic" drugs)? Its success is based on being effective for practically everyone.
I wish "thousands of years" of anecdotal use made a drug or supplement safe and effective, but given the poor records and short life spans of our ancestors, it's risky to judge a product on the basis of folklore.
By the way, Servan-Schreiber died of cancer at age 50.
What's the latest modern statistics for the increased life span contributed by modern medicine. I'm curious.
There's some information for you here Charlie, and I'm sure you could find more via a Google search (including the continuing decline in cancer deaths). Discussion might be more apt somewhere other than an herbalism forum, though.
Article says " In 2007, life expectancy in the United States reached a high of nearly 78 years, up from 77.7 a year earlier." I'm not sure the article attributes the longer life expectancy to modern medicine, though.
Regardless, here's something interesting: "In themselves the days of our years are seventy years. And if because of special mightiness they are eighty years." Psalms 90:10.
Apparently, man is living the number of years that were established long before modern medicine's influence was felt.
My uncle died last year at the age of 104 in Pennsylvania. He never took a pharmaceutical. But he did drink an extract of poke berries every day. More importantly, he said that he never over-ate. When he was full, he stopped. I believe that in itself greatly added to his longevity.
Thank you, Eric, for looking up that article for me.