Comman Strawberry

oakleif(z6 AR)December 24, 2008

Native Americans and settlers used strawberry leaf tea as a nerve tonic: also for bladder and kidney ailments,scurvy, diarhea and stomachaches. Fresh leaf tea used for sore throats.

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What's a "nerve tonic"?

Strawberries make a very pleasant cure for hunger.

    Bookmark   December 24, 2008 at 12:57PM
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brendan_of_bonsai(4b AK)

Everyone should be growing strawberries, no ifs ands or buts about it.

    Bookmark   December 24, 2008 at 1:42PM
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oakleif(z6 AR)

Must be a tonic to soothe ye olde nerves.

    Bookmark   December 27, 2008 at 2:44AM
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brendan_of_bonsai(4b AK)

Can you elaborate on what is means to "soothe" "nerves"? As it stands its something that we sometimes refer to as a "word salad"; That is to say it sounds like something, but really the words are arranged to say very little, and since it doesn't specify a claim its impossible to determine if that claim is true. A number of years back an early quantum physicist named Wolfgang Pauli was offered a paper by a young physicist and asked for his opinion on it. He read it, and replied "Its not right, its not even wrong" this was because it was unfalsifiable. If you carefully arrange the tests of a subject or idea so that they cannot fail under any outcome then you aren't even testing them. The first step to figuring out what works and what doesn't is there for figuring out how you test, and that depends on what you test for; that is why we want to know what "soothes the nerves" means or what "nerve tonic" means.

    Bookmark   December 27, 2008 at 4:28AM
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oakleif(z6 AR)

Dear Bren, please do explain particle physics and i'll be happy to critique.
Was it not you who quoted Pauli and only incompletely? Maybe my eyes deceived me and you really quoted Donald Duck? No i was'nt wrong lil bren dear You were wrong bigtime. The quotes sign ended after the actual quote i repeated in my last post and you did'nt even see it, Having trouble reading again bren? Why should i waste my time printing it the third time when you can't seem to read it.
Since you can come up with a scientific test for particle physics. Please explain to me the workable test that proves light is a wave. Prove light is a particle. Prove how it can be both. Prove there is a w particle. How many possible universes are there? Prove it boy. You can google can't you. Come on lets have some scientific proof. Than you can easily prove the particles that make up an herb or two. Oh just give me the scientific sites that describe the tests to prove anything. Than you can understand them. Oh but that would probably be your word salad again. I don't know about you but i know everythng that goes into my salads. Word,lettuce,vegeable,meat or whatever salad. It'd be kinda dangerous not to. Don't cha know.
No i don't think i'm always right but when it comes to some types of little kids and people who live in a bubble. It is so easy to catch them in things they don't have a clue to. They are few and far apart but when you come across one they are fair game. Fun too. If you don't want to get caught keep your mouth shut. No i'm not telling you to shut up. I'd like you to talk forever. In fact why don't you give us a few examples of medicinal herbs you know about and use. That would be very intresting and right on topic. How about scullcap?Eucliptus?Gumplant?Milk thistle? Gentian? any ring a bell.

    Bookmark   December 29, 2008 at 5:17AM
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brendan_of_bonsai(4b AK)

As I said before physics is not my strong suit, I know what the weak force and the strong force are and I can tell you what bozons and leptons and fermions are, I could even update you on the latest news at CERN but I don't have a super grasp on it all, I don't even know the reasoning behind the uncertainty principle. I see where you put your own hypothetical words in to Pauli's mouth, however you fail to realize that that quote and the issue of "not even wrong" is an issue of philosophy of science and that is something I am very familiar with. You should follow the link before throwing more words around, and you will see that any grasp of physics that you might have will not really help with the issue of the meaning of "not even wrong" because it is very well documented.

You keep trying to make this an argument about anything else because you think you can trap me with something I don't know about, fortunately for me I don't speak about things I don't know about, and if by mistake I do I am very vulnerable to evidence and will happily retract an incorrect claim.

Show me the evidence, link me to a source for your claims, I linked you to mine you just haven't followed the link. I'll even pull out a quote.

You said Pauli did say"Its not right. It's not even wrong" That my dear bren would have been a compliment. That is the beauty of quantum physics. The more you know the more questions there are to be answered to explain the world of the infinitisamal small particles that make up our universe.

The Truth as quoted from the very well sourced wikipedia is An apparently scientific argument is said to be not even wrong if it is based on assumptions that are known to be incorrect, or alternately theories which cannot possibly be falsified or used to predict anything. The phrase was coined by the early quantum physicist Wolfgang Pauli, who was known for his colorful objections to incorrect or sloppy thinking. Peierls (1960) writes of Pauli, "... a friend showed him the paper of a young physicist which he suspected was not of great value but on which he wanted Pauli's views. Pauli remarked sadly, 'That's not right. It's not even wrong' ". In science and philosophy, it is known as the principle of falsifiability.

Statements which are "not even wrong" may be well-formed, but lack reference to anything physical (as in "Souls are immortal", because the noun "soul" is not well-defined in terms of experimental results), or may simply be gobbledygook which appears meaningless (as in some of the Time Cube writings).

The phrase "not even wrong" is often used to describe pseudoscience or bad science, and is considered derogatory.

"Not even wrong" has also come to mean science which is well-meaning and based on the current scientific knowledge, but can neither be used for prediction nor falsified. Such theories are non-scientific, even when they are spoken in scientific language. The phrase has been applied to aspects of the super string theory of physics on the grounds that, although mathematically elegant, it provides neither predictions nor tests.

Clearly what you said is at odds with the wikipedia article, and the writings of Peierilis from whom we received the term. The Guy who reported on it first hand, the one who knew Pauli personally and Worked with him disagrees with you; This guy was on the cutting edge of physics at the time this quote was uttered and he was witness to all of the context and he disagrees with your interpretation. How do you reconcile this with anything other than you being wrong?

    Bookmark   December 29, 2008 at 6:05AM
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brendan_of_bonsai(4b AK)

I have a hard time believing that you missed my point. The prescribed fire method of grass lands management is well documented. I never mentioned them living in the mountains.

The civilizations in Eurasia began around 5000 BCE. Agriculture began 15,000 Years ago in Europe and 4,000 years ago in the Americas. The Europeans had a huge head start.

I am also familiar with the fall of Rome, that's a story that has had tremendous media exposure and as a result its not hidden away like most history.

I really don't see how any of this is relevant to strawberries, but I'll play along.

Daily I visit the BBC, NPR, slate, Phyrangula, Bad astronomy and the science based medicine blog, I also read XKCD and Questionable content which are web comics.

I am currently reading a book called enslaved by ducks, the ancestors tale by Dawkins, predictably Irrational, and the tipping point by Malcolm Gladwell.

I also listen to several podcasts regularly, at least 30, I can list them if you like.

I really don;t think I need to be educated on any of this, in the future rather than asserting that I must not know something why don't you post up a link to a resource, and write a few sentences to show that you have actually read it. Also you might try reading what I link too.

Here is a link that might be useful: Just one of many papers on the subject of prescribed fires

    Bookmark   December 29, 2008 at 11:20PM
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brendan_of_bonsai(4b AK)

Correction, Food crops were domesticated around 7,000 years ago in the americas, around the same time the Sumerian culture invented glue.

    Bookmark   January 3, 2009 at 3:29AM
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oakleif(z6 AR)

Bren! bren!
Beleive you mentioned Pauli. Last i heard he was a particle Physicist.
Bren dear a perfect description of you is you are not right you're not even wrong You're not even relevent.
I won't waste my time on such a puny excuse for a mind.
Have you ever heard of Schrodingers Cat? How about W theory of the Universe? KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT WEATHER? What is the Butterfly effect? Thats particle physics too. I really injoyed that you claimed to know Astronomy. Wrong!!! You can't know anything about astronomy without a goodbit of knowledge about Particle Physics since they go hand and hand. When's the next meteor shower? When and where is the next AAS meeting and convention? What size telescope do you have? WHAT KIND? Is it a reflector? What is the brigtest objects in tonights sky? What magnitude are they? What's an IU? Whats the magnitude of Sirius. Whats Sirius? If you have any knowledge of astronomy you should have all the answers on the top of your head. What sunspot cycle are we in right now? Curious minds want to know? What constellation is polaris in? How about the horse and rider? Who named most of our constellations? Who discovered Pluto? What is Miranda?

    Bookmark   January 16, 2009 at 2:59AM
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brendan_of_bonsai(4b AK)

You don't have to believe, you are encouraged to go back and reread the thread after a few days, I have reread this thread several times to be sure that I address the points you bring up, all of them (you missed the part where I quoted you and the wikipedia article, in red and green, and asked you to tell me if they say the same thing, and the part where I list the ages of different civilizations to compare Europe with America as far as cultural development)

He was trained and worked as a particle physicist and was one of the early quantum physicists. There are many physicists whop work both with quantum physics and particle physics, the two fields are very closely related.

Its odd that you call me wrong and then not even wrong.

Then you insult me, perhaps it is because I have a puny mind, but I don;t see how insulting me makes the case that an unfalsifiable hypothesis is useful, or that Pauli was talking about something he liked when he said not even wrong.

I also don't know how answering those questions will have any impact on a question about the philosophy of science issue that I raised. But I've got time to answer.

Schrodinger's cat was a thought experiment used to explain particle duality, I can go into more detail if you like.

No clue, unless you are talking about Martin-Lof and w-type, in which case you would have betrayed your own ignorance of the subject by leaving type off, I still don't understand it, as I said I'm not a physicist. Please link me.

I understand the broad consepts like convection currents and moisture barriers and snow flake crystal formation, but not the subtle nuances, I cannot predict the weather I am not a trained metiorologist.

The butterfly effect is a controversial effect that came out of Chaos theory that essentially constitutes a small event having large consequences because of a number of metaphorical dominoes being knocked one way or another, the concept it is named for is a butterfly flapping its wings in China affecting tornadoes in the US.

I never claimed to know astronomy I said I read Bad astronomy its a web blog. I would never say that I know any field, not even biology (and I feel very comfortable claiming that I know more biology than anyone else here except maybe Eric, it depends on his hobby interest) these fields are to big for anyone to know them all.

To my knowledge there is no way to predict the next meteor shower, there are regular meteor showers like the Leonid or the Eta Carinids (which we are in right now, according to Phil Plait an astronomer I keep in touch with, the one who writes that blog, I did have to pop on to facebook to find the spelling) but also meteor showers can occur when a few stray rocks wander in too close.

AAS meets in early January I think (again Phil on facebook), no clue where, someplace warm I would imagine (Hawaii, California or Florida). I'll never go to a meeting, I don't even claim to be interested in astronomy.

It's infinitely small

It's the non-existent kind

No, it doesn't exist

Well the moon is out, but I don't think that counts, I think I saw Jupiter, but never claimed to know astronomy

No clue about the brightness, boy these questions would matter a whole lot more if you read my posts and asked relevant questions.

I can tell you what an AU is, but the only IU I can think of is an International Unit, which is a unit of measurement used in biology (which is my field). What is an IU?

Sirius is the Dog star (there is a satellite radio outfit named after it) and I think its magnitude is around 1.5 but I'm not sure. It is the brightest star in the sky as viewed from earth if I recall correctly.

We are currently on a sunspot low, there were sevaral stories about how we went the longest we have with out sunspots in the last 100 years or so. we are about to start an upswing again, its an 11 year cycle.

Was that a question? Was there a blank I was supposed to fill?

Polaris is in Ursa Minor, you do know that I come from a state with that star on our flag right?

Big dipper, Ursa Major, again you picked stars that are on my state flag.

Since so many of them are Greek I'm going to say the Greeks named most of them.

Percival Lowell discovered it, he went looking because of irregularities in the orbits of Uranus and Neptune, don't have to follow astronomy to know this, its a pretty common story.

Miranda is a moon of Uranus, A girl I went to school with was named after it, her father was an astronomy major in college apparently and all three of his kids got astronomical names.

So, I never claimed to know astronomy but still I got all but three of your questions right off the bat, I call that damn good. If only there were some way to get a third party to rule on how relevant your questions were to the discussion at hand ...

    Bookmark   January 16, 2009 at 4:12AM
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brendan_of_bonsai(4b AK)

Someone in the hot topics forum pointed out how far off topic we were, so back on topic.

What is a "nerve tonic", what does it mean to "soothe the nerves"?

    Bookmark   January 17, 2009 at 11:10PM
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LOL- I got here from Hot Topics...

I have a hard time believing that Mensa would have in its ranks a member who cannot spell "common".

But, that aside...

A tonic is a medicine, and so I'd assume a nerve tonic would be a medicine that strengthens the nerves, or has a calming effect.

Wild Strawberry
Fragaria virginiana Duchesne

Edible Uses:
The fruits - wild strawberries - are edible raw, cooked or made into preserves. They are sweet, succulent, and delicious. The fruits can also be dried for future use. The dried leaves are a very pleasant tea substitute and are rich in vitamin C.

Medicinal Uses:
The whole plant is antiseptic and has agents that cause tissue to contract, that promote or assist the flow of menstrual fluid and secretion of milk, that treat toothache and other problems of the teeth and gums. It has been used to regulate the menstrual cycle. A tea made from the leaves has been used as a nerve tonic and is slightly astringent. A poultice made from the dried powdered leaves mixed with oil has been used to treat open sores. A tea made from the roots induces urination. It has been used in the treatment of diarrhea, irregular menses, gonorrhea, stomach and lung ailments. The Cherokee took it for disease of kidneys and bladder or for visceral obstructions, and used it for treatment of jaundice and scurvy. The Okanagan-Colville Indians used leaf powder applied to any open sore as a disinfectant.

Other Uses:
The fruits were used as a tooth cleaner by the Cherokee among others. They are held in the mouth, or rubbed over the teeth, to remove tartar.

Here is a link that might be useful: Wild Strawberry

    Bookmark   January 19, 2009 at 1:04PM
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bill_vincent(Central Maine)

How about W theory of the Universe?

Is this a Bush joke?


    Bookmark   January 19, 2009 at 8:27PM
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brendan_of_bonsai(4b AK)

A calming effect is a reasonable thing to claim, but it seems like there would be a better way to say it. I don't know what strong nerves would mean either.

    Bookmark   January 19, 2009 at 9:36PM
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I suspect that since it has been used to "regulate the menstrual cycle," pregnant women should possibly avoid it.

Good work, Brendan. I would have thought something as innocuous as strawberry leaf would be completely safe for anyone.

As an aside, I believe blueberry leaves and raspberry leaves may also have herbal uses, but I recall reading somewhere that cherry leaves can poison livestock if browsed upon.

    Bookmark   January 20, 2009 at 2:28AM
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brendan_of_bonsai(4b AK)

i would not suspect that producing an edible berry would bode one way or another for the edibility of a plants leaves.

    Bookmark   January 20, 2009 at 9:06AM
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Are you kidding?

You wrote...
"A calming effect is a reasonable thing to claim, but it seems like there would be a better way to say it. I don't know what strong nerves would mean either."

A definition of nerves:

"The brain is the center of the nervous system, like the microprocessor in a computer. The spinal cord and nerves are the connections, like the gates and wires in the computer. Nerves carry electrochemical signals to and from different areas of the nervous system as well as between the nervous system and other tissues and organs. Nerves are divided into four classes:

  1. Cranial nerves connect your sense organs (eyes, ears, nose, mouth) to your brain
  2. Central nerves connect areas within the brain and spinal cord
  3. Peripheral nerves connect the spinal cord with your limbs
  4. Autonomic nerves connect the brain and spinal cord with your organs (heart, stomach, intestines, blood vessels, etc.)"

Here's one example of weak nerves; Bell's Palsey...

Treatment for Bell's Palsey:
"Contact your doctor. He may prescribe a combination of the medicine acyclovir with the steroid prednisone to fight the virus causing the disorder and strengthen the nerve."

    Bookmark   January 20, 2009 at 9:59AM
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brendan_of_bonsai(4b AK)

I know what a nerve is, Biology is my thing, I just don't know what a srong nerve is versus a weak nerve, this is not a distinction that means anything, it sounds impressive, but it has no meat to it. Is it a physically strong nerve? Unlikely to break under mechanical stress, or a Nerve that sends strong impulses, which have no effect on anything except how much energy the nerve needs to function, or a Nerve that sends out larger amounts of neurotransmitters? In which case that would create more problems than it solved. How about a Nerve that resists infection? Should you only prescribe strawberry leaves for weak nerves when someone has enchepalitis?

The words you are using all seem to go together in a vague sense, if you were using them to describe social characteristics they would absolutely fit, but when you look at the physiology behind what is happening they contradict each other horribly, and that is why they are so vague as to be useless.

    Bookmark   January 20, 2009 at 1:37PM
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Ok. Can you consider that prior to the "advances" we have made in medicine that the Chinese and other cultures were able to diagnose nervous disorders and treat them with herbs?

I can understand that for someone for whom biology is their "thing" it may be difficult to comprehend an ability to diagnose without dissecting.

Personally I would rather drink a cup of strawberry leaf tea than a chemically extracted version of the same thing.

I think perhaps you would be happier on a forum that discusses biology and chemistry rather than an herbal forum.

...Unless you like dissent?

    Bookmark   January 20, 2009 at 3:35PM
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brendan_of_bonsai(4b AK)

The ancient chinese had a few diagnoses for a whole lot of problems, cystic fibrosis and tuberculosis were treated the same way.

You have to know roughtly what you are treating and what is wrong to be able to fix the problem. Curealls don't work, does your mechanic have a button under the hood of the car that he can hit to fix every problem? Does your tech guy have a special combination of keystrokes to fix your computer that will work every time? The reason we live more than twice as long today as the ancient chinese did is that we have a fantastic ability top dissect things and figure out what is wrong so that we can fix it.

    Bookmark   January 20, 2009 at 4:08PM
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"The reason we live more than twice as long today as the ancient chinese did"

Could you provide some documentation for this claim, please?


    Bookmark   January 20, 2009 at 10:56PM
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Agreed. Science has come a long way. But one has to know more than "roughly" what is wrong before a cure can be made effective. A person may be treated for a disease but not have it cured because of a plethora of other, interconnected whole-body issues that will continue to manifest in their health.

And, we're not talking quality of life here. We're talking quantity. There is a lot more than medicine that has an effect on quantity... availability of food, industrialization, etc. By the way, Okinawans (Eastern) and the original Caucasians (Eastern) have a long-standing reputation as having the longest life span on Earth.

Modern medicine and ancient medicine, I believe, both have their place.

What I wonder though, is why you are so adament on discussing modern medicine at the expense of historic medicinal practices?

I have personally been treated my whole life, since birth, by both Eastern and Western medicine. I can say, from my experience, that both have their merits, and both are lacking in "whole" or "holistic" treatment. There is a place for both in the world. But I think it requires a broader mindset than most in America are willing to pursue due to fear.

I had a doctor treat me for an illness that ended up nearly killing me due to his dependence on stronger and stronger antibiotics. My family decided I should go to a Chinese herbalist (a highly trained triple PHD) who had me in good health with no recurring illness in six months. The same physician also shrunk my fathers "inoperable" tumor to a size that was considered operable by Western medicine. And yes, it was cancerous. A perfect example of Eastern and Western working hand in hand.

I don't think, again, this is my personal belief that cannot be quantified... I don't think that because one cannot extract the exact compounds and put it in precise, Westernized terms, that effective medicine should be discounted. I have seen it work. I have experienced it working. I have felt the shift that comes when diet is regulated, herbs are taken, and my immune system is strengthened.

I have also been hospitalized as an adult due to poor prescription of medication that resulted in a system that was unable to handle the next illness that came my way.

And no, I am not sickly. I am a healthy, young adult. I simply have a hard time bouncing back after taking heavy pharmacuticals. They kill the good germs along with the bad.

    Bookmark   January 20, 2009 at 11:22PM
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    Bookmark   January 20, 2009 at 11:25PM
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That article also says that there is evidence that hunter-gatherers had much longer lifespans before the start of domestication, closer habitation and shared germs.

Hawaiians were extremely fit, well nourished, and healthy prior to the arrival of Europeans. Same as Native Americans. Both had no pharmaceuticals, only nature's pharmacy. Europeans were still bleeding people to death and calling healers witches.

Ever wonder why there is not more research on effective, essentially free natural "drugs"?

Look up cotton and hemp histories, for a parallel.

    Bookmark   January 21, 2009 at 10:25AM
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brendan_of_bonsai(4b AK)

The herbal medical tradition started right around the same time as the closer habitation. If you want to read anything in to that connection between coming together, shorter lives, and death its that the herbs shortened peoples lives.

Europeans were extremely fit for a long time too, especially before the introduction of draft animals, do you have any source for the implied idea that native americans and polynesians were particularly healthy?

Cotton and Hemp is not a parallel.

    Bookmark   January 21, 2009 at 12:17PM
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Do you have any documentation on the herbal medical tradition starting around the same time as closer habitation??

You honestly believe herbs shortened peoples lives?

Why are you on a herbalism forum again?

To answer your question "do you have any source for the implied idea that native americans and polynesians were particularly healthy?"

Captain Cook's log books, as well as those of other European seamen document the health and happiness of Pacific Islanders. I recommend if you are really interested to read some of those. You can find them at the library.

On Hawaiians:

"The traditional Hawaiian subsistence way of life was a physically active lifestyle with a simple nutritious diet that maintained a robust and healthy population."

"Drinking seawater followed by fresh water was considered a universal remedy. Various native plants were used as compresses for relieving pain or injury, and the leaves of plants were brewed in teas and used for healing purposes. Piper methysticum (the source of the intoxicating awa or kava) was used in many ways. Today, this species is a sedative given in mild form to infants during teething and is used in commercial diuretics. Seasonal changes and extremes of humidity and dryness produced many respiratory problems among native Hawaiians. There were as many as 58 herbal remedies for asthma, many of which have been studied or adapted by modern medical science."

Columbus's own journals remark upon the incredible health of the natives. But here's one educational exerpt:

"The existence of an extensive Native American pharmacopeia
provides testimony to the presence of diseases to be treated. Many natural products traditionally used to treat diseases in the New World are now known to be effective pharmaceuticals. These include various anesthetics, astringents, antiseptics, antibiotics, cathartics, anti-malarials, vermifuges (to kill intestinal parasites), and obstetric-gynecologic preparations. A variety of natural psychoactive compounds were also known and may
have been useful in the healing process. Clearly, elements of Native American health care must have been effective at
minimizing the effects of the diseases that were known to the New World. Having an effective social system for rendering care when needed, and living in harmony with the environment in a way that helped people remain healthy, were important aspects of health status in the New World."

But we could all quote sources all day, couldn't we?

I think this says it best..."The physical health and wellness of indigenous people is tied to the health and wellness of their environment, their spirit and their ability to define their destiny within their own values."

My reference to the cotton and hemp is that for a long time it was mandated to grow hemp in America, tinctures of cannabis were used on people of all ages with no health problems... forests were not stripped for pulp... and then what happened?

That is the parallel between pharmaceuticals/herbal remedies and hemp/cotton. Money money money. Those with the money, drive the studies.

    Bookmark   January 21, 2009 at 12:58PM
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Thank you silversword for your interesting and informative posts.

I think that the modern allopathic medical system is often given credit for extending life spans when improved nutrition and living conditions (better to credit the flush toilet) might have had more benefits especially in cities.

Back to the uses/benefits of strawberry, I wonder if there is a difference between wild and modern cultured strawberry plants. While I've never bothered with the wild ones we have growing on our land I might have to brave encountering a bear and pick some! Because they are so small the active ingredients may be more concentrated.

    Bookmark   January 21, 2009 at 2:10PM
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That's a good question Lucky... and you're lucky to have wild strawberries!!! This website says it is easy to cultivate wild strawberries:

so maybe you could dig up a few and bring them in to the safety of your garden!

This website below says that cultivated strawberries have less medicinal value than those that are wild.

One warning... when strawberry, raspberry, blackberry and other leaves begin to wilt, soften or curl a poisonous compound develops. Either make the tea right away, or dry them in the shade for about two weeks until crumbly.

"better to credit the flush toilet..."

LOL. I find it amazing that the Mayans had sewage systems far superior than "advanced" European civilizations during the same time. Imagine what our pharmacopoeia would look like if indigenous peoples had the chemistry labs!

    Bookmark   January 21, 2009 at 2:36PM
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