I noticed my extension suggest waiting 4 days before reentry into the orchard after spraying Captan. Any idea why?
Its a carcinogen! Supposedly it causes cancer on little mice that eat it but doesnt when injected. Either way its not good for man or beast! Lol
I would try to avoid it all cost. Spray and run! Lol. I have some on the way and I only plan on using it in small doses at one or two times per year at the exact time needed. I dont plan on spraying when ever or for problems that just arise out of nowhere. Ill save it for when the chart says to use it!! Lol Good thing I only have a few trees I am supposed to use it on.
Thanks for the reply. I spray it or immunox every two weeks or I want have any fruit here in the hot humid South.
I did the math and to get the same results as the mice you would have to spoon feed yourself 5mg a day for 6 months to a year to get any tumors. So as long as your not putting it on your wheaties or sniffing it straight from the tree you should be OK!
I found a study on why they banned it in California and it had all kinds of good info Google "why is captan banned in California". So that is what Im going off of. We ban everything here in California. Good thing my grandfather stocked up on all the "good" stuff. I still have a case of dursban and diazinon in the garage! As well as some captan!
In terms of re-entry, different formulations have different REIs. I use Captan 80WDG (80% a.i.). It has a re-entry of 1 day. Some formulations of captan 50W have a 3 day REI.
As I recall, the REI for all Captan formulations used to be 3 days. The maker of Captan 80WDG did testing required by the EPA to lower their REI. They were granted a lower REI of 1 day.
Blaze wrote, "I did the math and to get the same results as the mice you would have to spoon feed yourself 5mg a day for 6 months to a year to get any tumors."
Blaze, where did you get your stats on 5mg/day for 6 months? That sounds extremely low. According to Cornell (linked below) mice were fed 300mg/kg to produce cancer (although they didn't say over what time frame). That would be the equivalent of 20 grams/day for a 150 lb. person.
Captan is not banned in CA and is approved for use on almonds.
It's also used as a mechanical dip on apples to prevent storage rots. However, some countries prohibit imports of dipped apples.
I agree Captan is an older technology and one of the more dangerous fungicides. It can cause permanent blindness if you get the concentrate (i.e. powder) in your eyes.
I would prefer to use something safer, but all the multi-mode protectant fungides (ziram, chlorothalonil, etc.) are about the same in this regard. In it's favor, it has a very short environmental fate.
I generally use it early in the season so it has plenty of time to wash off/break down.
Here is a link that might be useful: Captan pesticide info profile
I have used Capan 50WP for years. Dangerous? It is sold in the local Stein Garden Center stores here in SE WI in 8 oz containers for the home market. IF terribly dangerous it would not be allowed for public use without being a licensed pesticide applicator.
Captan is cheap, effective and has been used by commercial orchardists for over 50 years. I will continue to use it. All chemicals are DANGEROUS if not used properly. I felt sick the other nite after cleaning my bathtub and tile with Lysol brand tile cleaner with bleach (2%). The fumes made
my throat sore for hours. I would rather spray Captan any day than use that product again. Perhaps I should wear a
respirator when cleaning the bathtub?
Sorry, I am going overboard, but California has bans on a lot of chemicals. I often have pruchased products that say
banned in California due to some ingredient it contains. Funny, but last I checked we had 50 states and a few leaches like Puerto Rico and Guam. This stuff is only banned in California and not the othe 49 states? Too dangerous there but not dangerous any where else? Sorry but I don't want to offend Californians but I find this fact a bit strange.
Yeah I cant find it in any store in orange county and what Ive read online led me to believe its banned in California. Maybe its not. I really dont know. Considering California stopped using it on many crops I always thought it was banned in the state? Tell me where I can buy it in California, preferably in Orange County so I can stop ordering it online.
California is a stupid state though. I hear you on what is not good for California can still be good for the other 49 states. California is BACK ASSWARDS. So dont worry about offending this Californian.
5mg? 50mg? Whats the difference? Are you going to injest that much on purpose or accident? Either way, try not to! If something MIGHT be a carcinogen, I dont want to risk it. Im not saying I wont use it, but Ill use it sparingly.
Here is an updated chart.
Oh and I made a mistake I should have said 10mg. I dont really care though.
"I felt sick the other nite after cleaning my bathtub and tile with Lysol brand tile cleaner with bleach (2%)."
I hear you and you make a good point.
My wife can't go outside in the summer without chiggers attacking her. She sprays "OFF" before she steps one foot on the grass. She has our kids trained to do the same thing. I can't go near that stuff. It burns my eyes and nose.
Regarding Captan, availability at big box stores is not a good measure to determine relative safety. At Home Depot, you can buy everything from sulfuric acid to Methyl Ethyl Ketone (MEK).
From the MSDS for MEK:
"DANGER! EXTREMELY FLAMMABLE LIQUID AND VAPOR. VAPOR MAY CAUSE FLASH FIRE. HARMFUL OR FATAL IF SWALLOWED. HARMFUL IF INHALED OR ABSORBED THROUGH SKIN. AFFECTS CENTRAL NERVOUS SYSTEM. CAUSES IRRITATION TO SKIN, EYES AND RESPIRATORY TRACT."
"Protective Equipment: "Goggles&Shield, Lab coat&apron, vent hood, proper gloves, class B fire extinguisher."
It might be interesting to note the typical homeowner who buys MEK probably doesn't observe the safety measures.
Re: Restricted Use
The EPA evaluates 3 criteria to determine whether a pesticide is classified as Restricted Use or General Use.
1. Hazzard of poisoning
2. The way the pesticide is used
3. Effect on the environment.
Obviously, the first one is a biggie. Paraquat falls under this one. Ingesting a small quantity of the concentrate is lethal and causes a slow painful death, for which there is no known antidote. I recall you've had some experience with paraquat.
Pesticides have "Signal Words" which quickly generalize the danger of the concentrate. It's convenient because a quick look at the label will roughly tell the applicator the danger level of the product being handled. In order of severity (from least to greatest) Signal Words are: Caution; Warning; Danger; Danger/Poison.
Obviously paraquat has the most severe signal word (Danger/Poison).
Danger to the environment is also another significant reason for classifying a pesticide as Restricted Use. I use a product called Mustang Max. It's Restricted Use but only carries a Warning for the signal word. Why is it Restricted Use? Because the pesticide in it's diluted form can very toxic to aquatic life. However, in it's concentrated form, it's extremely concentrated (applied at only 4oz./acre). If it were classified as General Use and John Q. Public decided to get rid of a jug of it by dumping it in his ditch, or down his toilet (people do things like this) there could be a huge fish kill.
Captan 80WDG carries a Danger signal word, yet it is not Restricted Use. It is packaged for agricultural use, but anyone can buy it. Captan 50wp also carries a Danger signal word.
I'm not trying to scare anyone from using it, but Captan's profile does not have the margin of safety of many of the newer fungicides. As mentioned, the concentrate can cause permanent blindness, has a lower LD50 (average lethal dose), skin sensitizer, etc. Although these are primarily applicator risks, I would still classify captan as one of the more dangerous fungicides compared to some of the new single mode of action fungicides like Pristine.
The current labeling lists it for use in CA. The Captan 50wp label lists it for a host of fruits and lists specific directions for CA grapes. I don't know if they have farm supply stores in CA, but if they do, that's where you might find it.
Some states can choose to have stricter guidelines than the EPA. Sometimes due to public opinion, sometimes there are endangered species in a particular state or county which the pesticide could cause significant danger. For these reasons a state or county can restrict the use of a pesticide, or ban it completely, even though it's registered and approved by the EPA.
The states and counties can add to the regulations the EPA has set in place, they just can't take away or lessen the EPA regulations.
Perhaps I'm missing it, but I don't see how you came up with 10 mg/day.
Lol...Is it that big of a deal?
The Reference Dose (RfD) for captan is 0.13 milligrams per kilogram body weight per day (mg/kg/d) based on decreased mean body weights in rats. The RfD is an estimate (with uncertainty spanning perhaps an order of magnitude) of a daily oral exposure to the human population (including sensitive subgroups) that is likely to be without appreciable risk of deleterious non cancer effects during a lifetime. It is not a direct estimator of risk but rather a reference point to gauge the potential effects. At exposures increasingly greater than the RfD, the potential for adverse health effects increases. Lifetime exposure above the RfD does not imply that an adverse health effect would necessarily occur. (6)
Im 220 pounds So that would equal roughly 10 Mg right? Maybe I did the math wrong. It doesnt matter enough to me to try and do the exact math to get the exact rates as I dont care enough to make a big deal out of it. I know captan is bad, so I try to minimize my exposure. Exact figures or not, Im not going to ingest 5mg or 10mg. Enough said. It was just a figure I threw out there to make a joke. Like I said, I really dont care that much..lol
As well as every store around here that I have been to, here is another website where they say it is banned. Not that I care ;-)
The funny thing is is a person on this website says you will have to eat 500grams in one sitting to get a %50 rate of possible tumor...lol
Ill still use the stuff but I wont eat it;-)
"Lol...Is it that big of a deal?...
It was just a figure I threw out there to make a joke. Like I said, I really dont care that much..lol"
Actually it is a big deal.
The maximum allowed residue level for captan on apples is 25ppm. That would mean that someone eating 1/2kg of apples/day (about a pound, or two apples) would also be consuming 12.5mg of captan/day (if the apples contained the maximum allowable residue level). This would be more than either one of the two figures you list (5mg or 10mg) causing cancer. I don't consider that a "lol" matter.
I had no idea you were just "throwing figures out there to make jokes". I had assumed you had some basis for the specific numbers you listed. I'll try not to make that assumption in the future.
Blaze wrote: "As well as every store around here that I have been to, here is another website where they say it is banned."
The posts on the garden forum you reference were posted in 2003. According to this Captan Agricultural Health Study, 447,418 lbs. of captan were used over 236,679 acres in California in 2005.
If it were banned in CA, the label would state as such, and no reputable supplier would ship it to CA. I'm sorry, I've no idea why it doesn't seem to be available to you in local stores.
The rest of my comments regarding captan are for others. You comment "enough said" indicates you are no longer interested in this discussion, so my further comments are not directed to you. The main purpose of this forum is to discuss and share information. I enjoy that, and that's all I'm trying to do.
Blaze quoted the EPA, "The Reference Dose (RfD) for captan is 0.13 milligrams per kilogram body weight per day (mg/kg/d) based on decreased mean body weights in rats."
For those interested, the Reference Dose (RfD) is a calculated value. In other words it is an interpretive number of an estimated safe value for humans to ingest based on tests of lab animals. The EPA reference to the dosages in rats was much higher (see link below).
"No treatment-related effects because of administration of captan in the diet were seen with the exception of body weight reduction and food consumption. A dose-related decreased in both male and female parent body weight was reported at 100, 250, and 500 mg/kg/day. A related decrease in food consumption was reported for all groups except for 25 mg/kg/day in the F1 males and F2 females and 100 mg/kg/day females."
One can observe the EPA's recommended allowable level of 0.13 mg/kg is vastly different than the levels where any negative effects were associated with rats. The levels differ by several magnitudes of 10. Why the discrepancy? In setting the (RfD) value for humans, the EPA takes into consideration a host of factors to determine a safe level. They consider sensitive subgroups (Ex. groups that could have developmental risk - children, pregnant women). The EPA has a methodology in determining RfD that builds in redundancy to reduce risk.
RfD is highly interpretive. Part of the problem is that test animals (generally rats and mice don't live as long as humans). Humans have average life spans 100 times longer than rats and mice. To account for this, researchers feed rats and mice 100 times more of the substance over the life of the rat/mouse to try to get a lifetime comparison.
It's debated how accurately this methodology represents human exposure, but that's why you hear numbers that someone would have to drink X number of cases of soda pop per day to consume a carcinogenic amount of some additive in the soda. The amount soda itself would kill the person before the additive ever had a chance to.
Here is a link that might be useful: EPA Integrated Risk Management System - Captan
Olpea, You mention Pristine as a safer fungicide alternative to Captan. Unfortunately, I am only able to locate it in a 7.5lb quantity for a cost of $426.95. Obviously this is designed for commercial use. Do you know of any other outlet where it is available in volumes suitable for the backyard grower? I am particularly interested in it for it's effectiveness against gray mold in strawberries and as a substitute for Captan in my apple/peach cover sprays. Thanks.
To me the most dangerous product we use is Lime-Sulfer. This is a product that is organic but is deadly in small amounts and rated as DANGER if I remember right.
Yeah Pristine is obnoxiously expensive. I'm not aware that they are packaging it in smaller quantities at this point.
A fungicide you may consider is Elevate. It's about as safe as Pristine. It's got a new unique mode of action and is effective against gray mold. It is also effective against brown rot on tree fruit.
Elevate is slightly more expensive per acre than Pristine, but it's sold in a much smaller quantity. A 2 lb package of Elevate sells for about $80. I think you can buy it online. For a small planting a 2 lb. bag would last a long time. The label does say For Ag Use Only, so to be in compliance with that part of the label, you'd have to sell some of your harvest.
For tree fruit Montery Fungus Fighter is a good choice for brown rot on stone fruit. I use the equivalent Bumper. It's much much cheaper, and in my experience, works as good as Pristine.
Both Elevate or Montery Fungus Fighter won't give you much help on apples. If you are battling summer diseases or scab on apples, Captan is probably your best choice.
olpea just because it is a maximum allowed does not mean that the maximum will always be on the fruit.
And plus, cancer IS NOT a laughing matter, but a conversation about the POSSIBLE cancer causing properties of something we will probably never even encounter in our lifetime, is. So dont mix my words thank you:-)
What I was trying to say was that a person would basically have to eat a mouthful of the stuff a day to ever see any problems. It was a passing statement really because I never imagined someone would try to argue the math on a hypothetical situation made in a message board. It was never meant to be "Serious" as in, dont try this at home. Or Captan is safe enough but dont go around eating spoonfuls of the stuff. I didnt expect an argument resulting from it. Im sorry you misinterpreted my post or if I came across as rude.
Even though I spray on a regular schedule but you know what? I know what is on my fruit.
LOL My Dad always said I wash my hands before I pick but I knew orchard workers in my time never left the orchard to go to the bathroom.
Olpea, Indar is now considered a good defense against summer fungus on apples as well as scab and CAR. Of course, it is also very good for brown rot on stone fruit.
It is cheaper than Pristine, but unfortunately, doubled in price when they liquified it and put it in gallon jugs.
I forgot Indar controlled summer diseases on apples, since SI's generally don't (Off the top of my head I think it's the only SI that controls summer apple fungus - am I right on that?)
Looks like it's $275/gal.
I think we're on the same page. I wouldn't recommend eating spoonfuls of Captan either.
So now that we got the "Eating" Captan out of the way, what about inhaling concentrated amounts. Do you think it can cause throat cancer?
When I got a new jug of it, when I opened it, my face was a little to close and I inhaled the cloud that came out. This was roughly 2-3 years ago but since then (or maybe its in my head), I have had inner ear pain and my gland in my neck are swollen at times. Maybe Im paranoid and its a problem with my wisdom teeth but either way, Im afraid to use the stuff anymore :-(
Could be your problem Blaze, too bad you weren't using PPE like the label and law required.
I doubt one inhalation could cause cancer, but you should probably get it checked out.
Obviously I'm not a doctor but the symptoms you mention could be a continual infection, or something more serious.
My aunt went to the hospital for an issue about month ago and they discovered untreatable cancer. They have now called in hospice and given her days to live. Terrible. She was completely fine before this. It's such a huge shock to our family. Cancer is not something to fool around with.