Will pembina and toka plum pollinate each other?

canadianplantMay 4, 2014

Trying to find a plum to pollinate my Toka. Apparently the best to use is wild plum ( p nigra or americana). Im having problems finding these.

I did find Brook gold/red and pebina for sale. Really great healthy trees and well pruned. Any chance for pollination?

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Konrad___far_north(3..just outside of Edmonton)

As far as I know, all these are hybrid plums and don't pollinate each other, yes, you need a wild one, perhaps look around in parks etc,..should be able to get something wild and graft onto, or check with nurseries, some use prunus americana as root stock.

    Bookmark   May 4, 2014 at 9:32PM
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canadianplant

Thanks Konrad. I was hoping you would answer :)

The best source I could find in regards to any hybrid pollination is from the u of sask. They state P nigra is the best as well.

There are no plums in city parks that I have ever seen. The closest thing (and it isnt close at all) are crab apples. There may be some in some of the protected parks. Im close to sleeping giant and ouimet canyon parks.

The worse thing is ive contacted the local master gardeners, the local conservation authority and even a few branches in the university here and have gotten ZERO responses.

Im not sure how much local propagation is done here, but I never thought to phone the local (non big box) nurseries and ask if its available or if they use it for rootstock.

Thanks:!

    Bookmark   May 4, 2014 at 9:50PM
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canadianplant

I also forgot to ask if sandcherry or nanking cherry would work for pollination?

    Bookmark   May 4, 2014 at 9:51PM
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Konrad___far_north(3..just outside of Edmonton)

I've bought here before, they told me that they use american plum as root stock, not sure if it's this native plum but either would work.

Here is a link that might be useful: http://www.boughennurseries.com/hardy_plums.htm

    Bookmark   May 4, 2014 at 10:12PM
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canadianplant

Thanks konrad! never seen this place before.

    Bookmark   May 4, 2014 at 10:16PM
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Konrad___far_north(3..just outside of Edmonton)

Some of these nurseries say its native but grow seeds from such a tree, [happen to me when I asked the hardy fruit nursery in Quebec for nigra] they told me that these are pure seedlings, [lol] I didn't want a seedling, then they dug up a sucker for me,...could be that more people caught on, now they're out of stock...guess no more suckers?

    Bookmark   May 4, 2014 at 10:25PM
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canadianplant

As long as there is no contamination from domestic plums seedling nigra/americana should still be ok. I guess the problem being that in many nurseries there is always contamination?

As for hardy fruit trees, their shipping season is over and if I remember they put most of the stuff as out of stock. Could be wrong.

    Bookmark   May 4, 2014 at 10:50PM
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Konrad___far_north(3..just outside of Edmonton)

Yes you're right,..no guarantee.

Prunus Nigra grows wild in southern Manitoba, a friend gets me some scion from along a river bank,..most likely not polluted.
I'll be comparing all 3 over the years and see if there are differences.

    Bookmark   May 5, 2014 at 2:08AM
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canadianplant

Both plums grow native here. The problem is finding them! Again great suggestion about asking local nuseries if they use it for rootstock. With a little luck they may know where to find some.

When you say "I'll be comparing all 3 over the years and see if there are differences." what do you mean?

    Bookmark   May 5, 2014 at 2:31AM
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Konrad___far_north(3..just outside of Edmonton)

The americana, the sucker nigra from Quebec, the nigra scion from southern Manitoba.

    Bookmark   May 7, 2014 at 12:36AM
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canadianplant

Ah. That should be an interesting comparison. Hope you make a post about it.

Thanks for the advice

    Bookmark   May 7, 2014 at 1:46AM
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mattpf

From what I've researched online is that a toka plum parentage is a wild plum crossed with a plumcot. It is recommended by almost every article online to pollinate other plums. I'm not sure u of sask used a toka in the article they released about the plum pollination. I may email them to ask.The hybrid plums they refer to in that article seemed to mostly be native x jap plums.
Apricot will also pollinate plums , those bush plums Nanking sand cherry are also recommended as they are a wild strain of plum.

It's impossible to find a real native plum because those decorative flowering plums are listed as prunus nigra . Princess Kay plum is prunus nigra? I'm wondering if these can be used as native wild plum pollinator. It was discovered along a river in northern USA. It apparently will set very few fruit also? To my knowledge I always thought the princess Kay were only a flowering plum.

    Bookmark   May 12, 2014 at 12:32AM
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mattpf

Toka might be a very hard one to pollinate.
Try apricot to it?
Brookgold is a seedling of a pure jap plum it may work also.

I've been searching for a proven source of wild plum and cannot find. A native plum produces lots of small fruit. If it says decorative or flowering plum I don't bother trying it.

    Bookmark   May 12, 2014 at 12:38AM
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plumhillfarm

Folks, I also read the article from U Sask, and ordered some of the named natives from NPGS and grafted them on suckers. THey grew and produced fruit (not that good, settlers used them to make jam), but they bloom 2 weeks after the hybrids (Toka, etc) so have minimal ability to cross pollinate. Even this year when the cold kept anything from blooming early and now the cherries, Japanese and many of the Europeans are blooming at the same time, the natives are still in tight bud (maybe alittle white tip). The U of Sask article mentioned this. Perhaps farther north they bloom closer together but not here in Vermont. I get massive harvests from the Pembinas (even when they crack), moderate from the Toka, Kaga, and Tecumhsa so non natives will pollinate them. I do have native Prunus growing in the treelines, but I believe they are choke cherries (scrubby little bushes with black knot and red berries)) and black cherries which bloom earlier than the "native plums". So, the natives may not be the ticket everyone one is hoping for.

    Bookmark   May 12, 2014 at 7:27AM
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charlieboring

I found this on the internet, "The salicina hybrids were developed by crossing native wild plums with plum varieties from California that were not hardy, producing hardy trees with good quality fruit. These include 'Pembina' (sometimes called 'Prairie', 'Acme' or 'Elite'), 'Patterson Pride', 'Brookred', 'Geddes' and 'Perfection' (sometimes known as 'Superb'). These hybrids will only produce fruit if they are pollinated by a wild plum, and they do not provide pollination for any type of plum, including each other. This may explain why some growers have poor fruit production with these trees."

    Bookmark   May 12, 2014 at 7:49AM
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clarkinks(5b)

I grafted Toka this year onto prunus Americana, prunus besseyi , and Canadian bounty plums. I'm not sure which ones are compatable yet but I have leaves coming out on all 3 . So I appreciate you posting this information. I'm growing 7 addiotional hybrid plum varieties and was interested in pollination as well. This article appears to be one of the few on the subject http://www.fruit.usask.ca/articles/plums.pdf. I will continue to follow this forum and continue to look for additional information.

    Bookmark   May 12, 2014 at 8:02AM
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charlieboring

I found this on the internet, "The salicina hybrids were developed by crossing native wild plums with plum varieties from California that were not hardy, producing hardy trees with good quality fruit. These include 'Pembina' (sometimes called 'Prairie', 'Acme' or 'Elite'), 'Patterson Pride', 'Brookred', 'Geddes' and 'Perfection' (sometimes known as 'Superb'). These hybrids will only produce fruit if they are pollinated by a wild plum, and they do not provide pollination for any type of plum, including each other. This may explain why some growers have poor fruit production with these trees."

    Bookmark   May 12, 2014 at 8:34AM
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canadianplant

Matt - I did ind out a few more things but it just seems to make it ore complicated.

It turns out that toka is a hybrid between P simonii. P simonii is considered " an upright variation of P salicina. On top of that all large japanese plums used in california (most of the ones used for the hybrids) are actually crossed with simonii anyways. The difference I found (and im still not 100% clear on it) is that toka is more or less a P simonii/salicina x american plum, which as you noted seems to make pollination way less clear.

The main problem with P simonii is "a severe lack of pollen" which would explain why the hybrids have a hard time pollinating eachother. From the little that I can understand it seems that the hybrids arent incompatible, its just little pollen to pollinate with. I guess Toka may have more pollen which is why its recommended as a pollinator.

Plum - the U of sask article states grafting the P nigra scion low so that it will help initiate proper flowering.

Charlie - that is pretty much what I have seen as well. Pretty much the reason why I posted. It does seem to go a lot deeper then that when it comes to toka.

All those california plums are apparently salicina x simonii, and simonii is said to just be an upright form of salicina.....

    Bookmark   May 12, 2014 at 6:25PM
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mattpf

Prunus simoni is a plumcot from research I've done online. It's a hardy variety from china. There is always lots of misleading info online.

I've not ever heard of many people getting huge fruit set on toka. But as you know it's very recommended by many.

Will a jap plum not pollinate a hybrid plum? Brookgold is just a seedling of a jap plum?

    Bookmark   May 12, 2014 at 9:33PM
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canadianplant

they call.them plumcots because of the shape of them and they are as clingstone as apricots. if I find the paper I was reading I'll post the link.

one of the few consistent things I've read is that Japanese plums won't pollinate hybrids. to a seems to be the most common suggested pollinator. on the other hand another consistent thing I've read is wild plums are the best pollinator or even the only one for consistent pollination.

    Bookmark   May 13, 2014 at 12:06AM
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snider1946(6)

It is my understanding that Bubble Gum plum is toka renamed by Paul Friday. Stark recommends Superior as a pollinator for Bubble gum. Robert

    Bookmark   May 13, 2014 at 6:32AM
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milehighgirl(CO USDA 5B/Sunset 2B)

I have Toka and it is pollinated just fine here. The only plums that bloom at the same time are Elephant Heart, Satsuma, Santa Rosa, and Pipestone.

This post was edited by milehighgirl on Fri, May 16, 14 at 17:30

    Bookmark   May 13, 2014 at 1:40PM
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mattpf

Does anybody have any native plum scion they can send me ?

    Bookmark   May 13, 2014 at 2:30PM
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canadianplant

Well, I have thtree plums on my toka. Not to say I have proper pollination, but its better then I thought in its third year, after two severe prunings.

Im going to try to find some more hybrid scions and use the toka as the base to get some easier to pollinate fruit. My neighbor has some delicious italian plums that I can graft.

    Bookmark   July 26, 2014 at 8:37PM
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