Imidan Source

glenn_russell(6b RI)June 26, 2009

Hi All-

Another GW member found a source for Imidan and was nice enough to share it with me. Thanks Joe! See link below.

I have already ordered mine, and it has arrived in perfect condition. Everything about the package looks new. I looked for a "born on" date on the package, but couldn't find one. The seller has a 100% feedback rating over 11,000 transactions, and if you look at their store, you can see that their business is garden chemicals. They say that the Imidan is "Fresh and New", and I can't see any indications to the contrary.

Even though I have obtained it, I may not use it any time soon. This is more of an insurance policy More of a "Going to buy it now while I can because normally I canÂt find it may not use it right away but keeping it on hand in case I need it". I have a good place to store it where it should always be between 50-80 degrees.

In my yard, somehow I've managed to avoid PC and other nasty insects so far. I'm wondering if being religious with the Bonide Fruit Tree spray spraying after pedal fall though the time I bag has protected me? If so, it's the ONLY thing that crap is good for. And because I've never let the buggers get a foothold, they've never really set up camp?

I've recently agreed to help a friend with an orchard (about 30 trees, 9 years old) that has gotten out of control. Despite his best efforts of spraying of the Bonide FTS 15 times a season, it does nothing to control CAR, and he didn't know what to do, and gave up 2 years ago. I now have a solid plan for him of Kocide3000& oil spray and then a couple Immunox sprays. This Imidan may come in handy if the insects turn out to be bad in his orchard.

I also got some 2.5% Permethrin for myself the other day at the local hardware store in the form of Bonide Borer Miner Killer as recommended by theaceofspades. I suspect this is what IÂll be using in the future instead of the Fruit Tree Spray.

In my 6 months of looking for Imidan, I had actually searched eBay a couple of times, but it was never there before. As I understand it, (from HarvestmanÂs posts) Imidan isnÂt nationally restricted, but there not making it in home-grower quantities. From one of DenninmiÂs posts: "Imidan apparently is still on the market, but the problem is getting it shipped to you. I inquired at an online company I've purchased from before, and the owner e-mailed me back and said they are no longer selling it because neither the USPS nor UPS want to handle it because it's caustic and requires special hazardous materials shipping and handling. I didnÂt ask the seller about any of that.

I think it was Joe who asked the seller how much Imidan they had and this was their response: We have several bags of Imidan, and my distributor has ordered in more so I will be able to ship as many as are ordered. Thanks so much, and also thanks for your patience! Best wishes, Hope

Oh, yeah, even through a sealed bag that stuff stinks!



Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
franktank232(z5 WI)

Funny thing about CAR. My 3 apples all were sprayed twice, after petal fall (about a week apart) with Immunox. Those trees have no CAR. A couple of apple seedlings i found in the garden and decided to pot up DO have CAR (weren't sprayed). The stuff works great. Don't use too much, i bet one spray would have been enough, which is all i used last year.

    Bookmark   June 26, 2009 at 10:37AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
glenn_russell(6b RI)

Yeah, I nailed CAR as well this year with 3 sprays of Immunox. That stuff is great. And it's effective against 2 other pains for me: Scab & Powdery Mildew. Harvestman says 2 sprays is what works for him, so that's my plan for the future. The only reason why I didn't do that this year was because I didn't know the exact timing of my orchard (i.e. all trees stages averaging out to date X) so I went a little before he recommended until a little after he recommended to be safe. -Glenn

    Bookmark   June 26, 2009 at 10:44AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo

PC is insane here. I have old neglected trees that have been breeding everything for 30 yrs. Bonide did nothing on pc, the spectricide trizide gave excellent control (thanks mike) But I worry about breeding resistant bugs so my thoughts are 1 application of imidan at petal fall, 1st cover with spectricide 2nd cover imidan then maybe move to bonide and sticky traps for cm am control(?). Or maybe just 1 imidan aplication. Like Glen I wanted something else in my arsenal that will be effective.
I have 8 trees, 5 full size, and plan on as many as I can stuff into the lot im working on, luckily most trees are 300' away from houses and near a corn field.


    Bookmark   June 26, 2009 at 11:15AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
myk1(5 IL)

I also worry about resistance.
On those pet curculio I captured it seems the Triazicide doesn't really kill, it's a neurotoxin so it disrupts something. After 2 days the "dead" once came back to life.
It could've been that I didn't give them water, when I gave them water and a sprayed leaf to munch on they died.
Similar results with captured Japanese beetles. They instantly couldn't fly, quickly "died", but I noticed when I threw another in the bucket a day later the "dead" ones were still twitching their antenna.

Last thing I want is resistant curculio. I did end up with quite a bit of damage on my Arkansas Black which usually gets little, but almost no damage on my Cortland and McIntosh which are usually nearly wiped out by the curculio.

    Bookmark   June 26, 2009 at 11:38AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo

OMG Zombie PC !

So basically spectricide disrupts oviposition. Its great to spray hardly any odor.

At a teaspoon a gallon (imidan)I wont need all 4 lbs....


    Bookmark   June 26, 2009 at 1:19PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
alan haigh

Comments and questions: Scab is a bigger issue here in southeastern NY than CAR although both are a hazard. I don't actually recommend a 2 spray categorically but I have a few customers that want to go bare-bones. I actually use no fungicide in my own orchard and don't have any problems (yet!) except a couple spots of CAR. I'm surrounded by woods with no apple trees in the natural mix.

My 3-spray consisting of oil amd myclobutanyl at 1/2 inch green to tight cluster and Imidan, captan and myclobutanyl at petal fall and 10-14 days later has failed me for the first time in 18 years- at at least one site.

Scab on Macintosh! Could be resistance, but near constant rain might be the whole explanation. It hasn't jumped to apples much from the leaves so it is not severe and I think the dance is pretty much over. I'm coming in with an ap of Flint and Messinger (ie Immunox or myclobutanyl) just to be safe. The customer throws a huge apple picking- cider pressing party every fall and there's a big investment on a good crop. Mac is the main cider apple.

The Imidan should store indefinately from what I've heard- just keep it dry and reasonably cool. I don't think it will be banned in the near future. What makes it so useful is it's relative rain-fastness. Even 2 inches of rain doesn't knock off but 50% of its power.

Tell me about spectracid trizide- how long does it stay affective after spray? What all does it kill?

I don't think you guys have to worry too much about development of resistance. In all the orchards I manage Imidan has been my primary insecticide for a couple decades and it still seems to be doing the trick. If you are managing a 100 acre orchard I actually think resistance may be many times more likely- seems that way anecdotally. Most of the orchards I mange are pretty small with a couple from 2 to 4 acres. Avaunt should be licensed for home use sometime soon- there is a clamoring for it in the Aboriculture industry and it is currently not restricted- just not legal to use in non-commercial prodution even though it's far less human toxic than Imidan.

    Bookmark   June 26, 2009 at 4:55PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo


Check the label on your newly acquired Imidan for the percentage of active ingredient. When Imidan was available on the consumer market, it was always sold with 10% active ingredient or less, which made it necessary to use quite a bit for effective control.

Yet, simultaneously, commercial growers were being sold Imidan 50% WP (means wettable powder), and that percentage on the commercial product was increased several years ago to 70% WP, which is what I am using now.

With the higher levels of active ingredient, you can use much, much less. Using the 70% WP, I get good control using less than 1/2 tablespooon/gallon. I am constantly experimenting to lower the chemical amount while still maintaining effective control.

Somehow, I suspect that the Imidan being sold on the internet is a diluted version of 10% active ingredient or even less, making it more profitable to sell. You can confirm this or put my suspicious mind at ease by looking at the label and telling us what it says about active ingredient.

Don Yellman, Great Falls, VA

    Bookmark   June 26, 2009 at 6:45PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
myk1(5 IL)

"Tell me about spectracid trizide- how long does it stay affective after spray? What all does it kill?"

Triazicide is gamma-cyhalothrin. It's a pyrethroid. I've read that it's a neurotoxin, female mosquitos can't bite with it.
What I saw on my McIntosh was attempts at egg laying. Most were blotches that went nowhere, some were shallow crescents, and 1 or two apples are deep enough that they could've been successful (but the apple hasn't fallen off yet and is getting big so it may not have been successful). I had quite a few successful hits on my Arkansas Black where curculio is usually not a problem. I may have had a few crescents on my Cortland, if I did it wasn't anything memorable, I just kind of remember pocketing a June drop instead of throwing it into the garden.
My unsprayed Northstar cherry was all but wiped out and usually my cherries are left alone.

I don't know how long it is actually effective or how rain fast it is. I've gone 3 weeks and haven't seen any more attacks than usual and I can still smell it (definitely a pleasant odor). They recommend a 14 day spray schedule but that could be the breeding cycle since most seem to say that.

I worry about resistance to the Triazicide since what I've seen is that it doesn't necessarily kill.

Triazicide is very economical for me as far as home sprays go but you might want Proaxis.

"GAMMA-CYHALOTHRIN (PROAXIS) is a pyrethroid insecticide registered for the control of many insect species on all pome and stone fruits. Formulated as a 0.5 lb per gallon encapsulated suspension (CS), it is applied at the rate of 2.56-5.12 fl oz per acre (0.01-0.02 lb ai/acre). Proaxis is limited to a season maximum of 1.6 pints per acre (0.1 lb ai/acre) and a postbloom maximum of 1.28 pints per acre (0.08 lb ai/acre). As with other pyrethroids, postbloom use of this product is likely to result in a mite outbreak. Proaxis has a restricted entry interval (REI) of 24 hours, and a preharvest interval (PHI) of 21 days on pome fruits and 14 days on stone fruits. See label regarding season maximum if Warrior or Lambda-Cy is also included in spray program."

This isn't the page I was looking for but it does have an effectiveness chart in it,
The other one I had was slightly different with curculio and codling moth reversed, apple maggot didn't get a good rating.

    Bookmark   June 26, 2009 at 6:57PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo


One last question that I forgot to ask, if you don't mind. What are the mixing instructions in tablespoons or ounces/per gallon on your internet-procured Imidan?

I have often found the mixing instructions on chemicals to be unhelpful or unclear when dealing with small amounts, with most of the label devoted to cautions and precautions, all intended to cover potential legal issues.

Don Yellman, Great Falls, VA

    Bookmark   June 26, 2009 at 7:44PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
glenn_russell(6b RI)

Hi Harvestman-
Fair enough on the 2 sprays categorically. 1 time in 18 years at just a couple sites still sounds pretty darn good to me. (and probably good enough for me considering that prior to this year, I basically had nothing effective against CAR) The 3 sprays here at my site nailed it. And, Im guessing that that site is still not in terrible shape? Do you think it has to do with the timing of the rain and when the spores were released? I know Michael357 is trying to nail this down to a science. He also has CAR galls that he can monitor to help him time his sprays. I.e. I believe he said he saw a 2nd batch of galls emerging and then decided to do an additional spray this year.

Its the opposite for me here at my site in RI the scab really isnt too bad, but my trees will all look like andy_levines CAR pics in his recent post. Funny how different things are just a couple hundred miles away. Oh, and did I mention that I dont think PC has found me yet?

Was talking to Olpea today about Imidan being tracked into a house, and how it really doesnt break down once that happens. Thats what Im most fearful of.

Hi Jellyman-
I put up the support poles on my free-standing espalier today and thought of you. Ha!

And, how could I ever mind answering a question for you? Its just nice to have the roles reversed for once! :-)

Everything I can see about the labeling makes me believe it is the 70% Phosmet. I wasnt aware that there were different formulations out there, but it appears that I got lucky. Ive taken the pictures below to help set your mind at ease. I think you can click on the pictures to get a higher resolution view of them.

From what I can tell, the label that can be found here is the same label that I have. Im not seeing any indications for the type of quantities that we use. (No tablespoons/teaspoons). I believe it was the same with the Ferbam label. Youd think the EPA would want us to use it safely, but how is one supposed to do that when there is now good way to convert lbs/acre to tbsp/gal? Very frustrating. Thankfully for me people like you and Harvestman have gone before me.

Man, I wish they made smaller bags of this stuff If I do ever use it, I cant imagine ever using 4 lbs of it. A half pound would be nice.

Thanks guys,

    Bookmark   June 26, 2009 at 9:04PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
myk1(5 IL)

"Youd think the EPA would want us to use it safely, but how is one supposed to do that when there is now good way to convert lbs/acre to tbsp/gal?

That answer is simple. They've decided we can't use it safely.

Thanks for posting the label. I think I'm going to have to refrain. It's just about impossible for me to have a 3 day REI.
I even have problems with the "until it's dry" stuff sometimes. As tight as my planting is I think I'd have that all over the house.

    Bookmark   June 26, 2009 at 9:32PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
glenn_russell(6b RI)

If they don't think we can use it safely, then restrict it. Don't give it to us, but then not tell us how to use it properly.

I've seen other formulations as "WP" (wettable powder), but mine is just a "W". Is there any significance to that I wonder?

    Bookmark   June 26, 2009 at 9:49PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo

Glen - I think the only difference is that the "W" water soluble paks are not ment to be broken into and spooned out. They are ment to be thrown in the sprayer.

Harvestman - First, thank you for all the info in your past posts. If I understand you spray schedule you only do 2 imidan sprays and nothing else (?) You control apple maggot with sticky traps. I would imagine the imidan nails the 1st gen of codling moth -correct? So really your done spraying by july 1st.

Also how many sticky traps is needed in a full size tree?

thanks you again.

    Bookmark   June 26, 2009 at 10:16PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo


That label in your photo is the real deal. I don't think the absence of the "P" is an issue. It's obviously a powder.

The Imidan I have, which appears to be identical to yours, is in a foil/plastic bag enclosing four separate plastic bags. The inner plastic bags were designed to completely dissolve in tank mixing, and have no resistance to moisture at all.

After removing and opening one of the inner bags, I immediately drop it into a gallon ziplock freezer bag, and keep it zipped up tight at all times unless actually removing powder. The ziploc is kept upright in a coffe can. When mixing, I place a little hot water in the bottom of a pyrex measuring cup, add the chemical in a measured amount, slowly mix it into a paste, then gradually add the rest of the water to the container I will pour into the sprayer. I don't want this stuff drifting around in the air of my greenhouse, which it can do if you are not very careful when working with it. You probably have this figured out, but it doesn't hurt to mention it.

Don Yellman, Great Falls, VA

    Bookmark   June 26, 2009 at 10:17PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
myk1(5 IL)

"If they don't think we can use it safely, then restrict it. Don't give it to us, but then not tell us how to use it properly."

They did restrict it. It's not for home use and hasn't been for a few years.
They didn't let you have it, you did an end run around the rules and bought commercial grade.

I'd rather complain that why ban it for home use if there wasn't a good replacement. Are we supposed to just let our fruit rot? Why are my $500 worth of apples not as important as a commercial growers' (I know the answer, because I'm not paying sales tax on my apples, they are paying income tax on and bringing in sales tax with theirs).
Gamma-cyhalothrin is seeming to be a fair replacement but it has all the issues that pyrethroids have with mites, bees and water.

    Bookmark   June 26, 2009 at 11:15PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
olpea(zone 6 KS)


As far as mixing Imidan, here is one way that should get you pretty close to the correct dosage. It is generally recognized a "full dilute" spray, in a mature peach orchard is 300 gallons of spray per acre. I mention peaches because peaches are also about the same size as a semi-dwarf apple. At roughly 100 trees per acre, that gives you about 3 gallons of spray per tree. Full dilute sprays are sprayed to the point of run-off. The label for Imidan 70W shows 5 lbs. of Imidan per acre. If you were to add 5 lbs. to 300 gallon of water, you would get .27 ounces of Imidan per gallon of water. At that rate, if you spray to the point of run-off, you will basically be putting the same amount of chemical on the foliage, as a commercial grower. If you don't have a scale that measures that small, be aware that powders generally DON'T follow the old rule, "pint a pound, the world around." In other words, volumetric measurements for powders, don't equal liquid weight measurements. Since you're an engineer, you probably already know all this. Captan weighs about 65% of a liquid measurment. Assuming (and I don't know if it's a correct assumption) Imidan is similar in density to Captan, then a .27 ounce/gal weight measurement would translate to .83 tablespoons of Imidan per gal. of water. Or about 2.5 teaspoons/gal. The calculations are based on the higher rate of 5 lbs./acre. Don's dosage of 0.5 tablespoons/gal. is closer to the lower rate of 2.5 lbs/acre, and as he stated, he seems to be getting good control.

    Bookmark   June 27, 2009 at 12:51AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
myk1(5 IL)

They're saying 550 gallons per acre max. That's over 1 gallon per dwarf apple on a density planting, about twice as much as I have to spray to get good coverage. So I would have no worry about going over their limits.

If you mixed 5lbs/300 gallons you would be mixing too strong and starting out at the maximum per acre.

Since Jellyman has already figured out 1/2TBS/gallon I'd go with that.
If I wanted to double check him I would to the math by weight/gallon. 1lb per 100 gallons = 4.5 grams per gallon.

    Bookmark   June 27, 2009 at 1:37AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
olpea(zone 6 KS)


Gallonage required for full dilute sprays, are of course, highly dependent on the size of the trees. I've seen full dilute sprays on a label as high as 2000 gal/acre (The label I'm thinking of didn't specify which crop would require such a volume of spray, but I'm thinking mature pecans might approach that level.) The 300 gal/acre is not just a guess, but a recognized stat in commercial spray guides. As you mention, 550 gal/acre is about twice as much spray to get good coverage in your circumstances. That would indicate about 275 gal/acre is the correct starting point for calculations in your situation. All this is to say, I think we are saying the same thing. In the end, a rate between 0.135 to 0.27 ounces/gal of water meets the labeled dosage. And I agree, one should use the lowest labeled rate possible, that still achieves good control.

    Bookmark   June 27, 2009 at 10:34AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo

Hi Glenn: time for me to waller in with some suggestions.

1) since you plan to be using materials in the future that will require odd, hard to convert to volumetric measurements like Tbsp., get a balance. I use a single beam balance. You can weigh accurately and precisely, repeatedly.

2) go out and spray what you intend to spray say with Imidan and use only water, when you are done you'll know how much water it takes.

3) measure the area you spray and convert it to an acre basis.

4) with those pieces of info, you'll be able to go to the bag and take those seemingly useless amounts like, " 5 lb in 300 gal over 1 acre and make sense of it on a gallon basis.

I think Olpea already has it but here is another way of viewing it. The label tells you to use enough water to get thorough coverage of the leaves and fruit. It also states 2 recommendations on apple in the first part of the apple section, 1) 3/4 - 1 lb/100 gal.. I'd take that to 3.4 - 4.5 g/gal.. If you know how much water it will take you, mix accordingly, you'll be correct and it won't be much. 2) 2 1/8 - 5 1/3 lb/A. Thank god for the metric system, that equals 965 - 2420 g (0.965 - 2.42 kg) /A. You could check your gallon mix in grams over the area measured to see if anything is out of bounds with the 2 1/8 - 5 1/3 lb before you mixed your first mix.

But this is just my way of over thinking things, actually, I hate using the english system, guessing and messing with volumetric measurements if I don't have to. Must be the lab rat in me.

Check my math, I didn't because dinner was just put next to me,


    Bookmark   June 27, 2009 at 6:39PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
olpea(zone 6 KS)

I agree with Michael, the most accurate way is to convert sq. ft. to acres. Amount of Imidan per land mass is the way the label is written.

However, I disagree with the part of the label that says 550 gal/acre is full coverage in todays circumstances. Think of it this way. One part of the label says lbs/acre, another part says lbs./gal. There are many circumstances where these two figures will conflict. That is to say, the gallonage requirements for full coverage, are different than what is stated on the label, and what is needed on an acre basis. In full dilute sprays, gallonage requirements are dependent on the size of the crop being sprayed. As I mentioned, this can vary widely, from about 100 gal/acre for low growing field crops to 2000 gal/acre for 80 foot pecans. Since Imidan, as a first generation organophosphate, was released in the 1960s, I suspect the gallonage numbers on the label were tailored toward full sized/full vigor apple trees. If one had newly planted 3' apple trees, it would be ludicrous to spray 550 gal/acre. What I'm trying to say is that the gallonage requirements on the label should be taken with a grain of salt. Most pesticides sprays can be concentrated up to 10X, or more. What the EPA is really concerned about is the amount of chemical per land area. I simply gave the chemical/gal recommendations as a user friendly ball park figure, but as Michael points out, land area complies the most accurately with the label.

    Bookmark   June 27, 2009 at 7:48PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
myk1(5 IL)

My guess is (from reading a lot of EPA papers) that the per acre limit is all about run-off and has little to do with how much to put on each tree for control of pests.
That would be why it does not take anyone over a gallon per dwarf yet a high density planting is 400-600 dwarfs per acre. So in reality you should be able to get coverage with half of their maximum with dwarfs, probably be right around the max with semi-dwarfs and not getting good coverage with standards.
I don't think it has anything to do with pecans because what was show was for apples and the EPA sets the limits for the fruit given. I bet pecans has a different per acre maximum.

Remember that label is commercial not home. Land area does not jive with most home plantings unless the home orchard is planted in rows.
There is no way you would accurately compare my backyard to an rowed acreage planting.

    Bookmark   June 27, 2009 at 9:00PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo

I got spraying charts for all the fruit types off the internet.

On Plums, for Plum Curculio and OFM, it says to use 0.75-1.0 lbs. per 100 gallons (2.13-4.25 lbs. per acre) for Imidan 70 WP.

It also says for cherries to use Imidan 70 WP at 0.75 lbs. per 100 gallons. Also, says this is 2.1-2.5 lbs per acre. These amounts are for Plum Curculio and Cherry Fruit Fly on cherries.

How do these translate in teaspoons or tablespoons per one gallon?

The chart also says to not use Imidan on Sweet Cherries.

    Bookmark   June 27, 2009 at 11:44PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
alan haigh

My internet was down a couple of days so this discussion got away from me a bit. Jellyman, be cautious about diluting your Imidan amounts. What makes Imidan so useful is even after significant rain it maintains an ability to control PC for a significant time- that's the most important feature over alternatives- I believe this is Cornell research I'm speaking from. What it means is that even after 50% of it is washed off trees it still has killing power when applied at labeled rates- and it doesn't wash off easily.

Lowering concentration below labeled rates is illegal because it may lead to resistance.

Olpea, I don't know if your concern about tracking Imidan indoors came from one of my posts- it has long been an unsubstantiated concern of mine. Especially when dogs walk around under the trees on dewey mornings and come into the house to be petted by children. I also am concerned about the fact that once removed from biological processes that break it down it may hang around indefinately which may occur when tracked indoors. As long as it's dry and set (in other words no dew or rainwater) it stays put as I understand it. I bet a dilute lime spray under trees would completely break down that Imidan almost immediately.

I do not deal with AFM in any way because it mysteriously has not appeared in a single orchard I manage even though it's a major issue in commercial apple production nearby. I like to think it's because of deer eating all the drops but several of the larger orchards I manage are protected with deer fencing.

Cornell publishes a great book annually for around $15 titled Pest Managment Guidelines for Commercial Tree-Fruit Production that is invaluable to me and a real steal (must be primarily supported by tax money). It often lists rates by both per acre and by 100 gallons. For Imidan 70 the rate is 3/4 to 1 pound per 100 which by my measurment at highest rate is about 1 TBS per gallon.

I looked up the label for Proaxis and they recommend applications of every 5 days for PC control. Of course Imidan's label is pretty tight as well but I would guess Proaxis is not as persistant and probably suffers more from wash-off.

Imidan is not restricted for home use except in a few states, including NY. I can go across the border to CT and pick it up legally without displaying my license. At $35 dollars a 4 lb bag it is not prohibitive in price for a home orchard- Of course then you have to carefully store it for a long time. I found out that the part of the label that says "not for residential use" means indoor use.

If I was a home grower, I honestly would not care about the law- it is written to protect us all from idiots and if you use Imidan carefully, screw the bureacrats and get your fruit. Even if you have to mask the smell with one of those perfume adjuvents. I wouldn't do this is drift will reach a neighbor, however. That would violate my particular version of ethics.

    Bookmark   June 28, 2009 at 7:04AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
myk1(5 IL)

"I looked up the label for Proaxis and they recommend applications of every 5 days for PC control. Of course Imidan's label is pretty tight as well but I would guess Proaxis is not as persistant and probably suffers more from wash-off."
I've read the opposite, that the synthetic pyrethroids are hanging around a lot longer than they thought. That would also explain the extremely long PHI.

The Proaxis label says 5 or more days depending on insect populations and that was remarks for the whole list of controlled insects. For curculio that should be 10-14 days going by everything I've ever read about their life cycle.
Judging from what I've seen on my traps apple maggot might be on a 5 day schedule at their peak.

Here is what the EPA had to say about household use of phosmet in '01. So as of '06 it's been gone from home use, and I've seen nothing from the EPA saying otherwise.

    Bookmark   June 28, 2009 at 8:54AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
alan haigh

Dear Mykl, I have read the Imidan label, spoken to the NYDEC and to the manufacturer, all from last winter to early Spring this year. I am quite sure of my take on Imidan being legal for use in residential areas (at least as far as the national and NY label). The label says not for residential use but that means indoors. Call any of my sources for confirmation.

Your comment about PC life-cycle interests me because, as I understand it, they can swarm into an orchard from elsewhere overnight and do great damage within a very short time.

PC is generally the toughest agricultural pest and always gets highest labled rates in my experience- it certainly does with Imidan and Sevin.

Maybe Proaxis is not labled for use in NY because Cornell does not even list it as a potential control of PC- at least up until 07. I'll look that one up.

A longer re-entry period is not proof of longer affectivness but you certainly have me curious. I'd love to see the data and I sure hope you are right. It would be wonderful.

    Bookmark   June 28, 2009 at 11:51AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
alan haigh

Mykl, OK, looked it up. The 09 Cornell Commercial Tree Fruit Production is available on-line so I went there.

Looks like you might be right about duration of Proaxis being greater than Imidan but it should also be noted that in NY State this material is restricted and not recommended for use in commercial apple production by Cornell. This is because Proaxis (and Warrior, the same compound) is extremely hard on certain beneficials making mite outbreaks very likely. Considering that they tolerate Sevin use this is some cause for concern by me.

I'm still very greatful for your information and there might be occassions I'd consider using this product. Thanks.

    Bookmark   June 28, 2009 at 12:14PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
olpea(zone 6 KS)


Yes my comment to Glen was based on information you and I exchanged in email. I had thought you said you talked with the Gowan rep, and he said, indoors Imidan never breaks down, lasts as long as DDT. I passed that info on to Glen.

Myk wrote: "Remember that label is commercial not home. Land area does not jive with most home plantings unless the home orchard is planted in rows.
There is no way you would accurately compare my backyard to an rowed acreage planting."

Myk, I'm going to have to disagree with you on that one. Well, sorta. It's true there are definitely differences in rowed acreage planting vs. backyard orchards. For one, more pesticide hits the ground in rowed acreage plantings using an airblast sprayer, vs. a backpack sprayer carefully directed at individual trees. But that doesn't mean all labels with per acre rates can't be used with backpack sprayers. Setting aside the discussion of Imidan for the moment (I'm not going to get into the debate about what the word residential means. There are too many people on this forum that use Imidan, and I'm ain't goin' there.) commercial growers sometimes use backpack sprayers in their operations. I know a commercial tomato grower who in a large hoop house. There is no way motorized equipment will fit in there, so he uses a backpack. I've seen commercial labels list backpack sprayers in their equipment. The only prohibition I've seen on backpack sprayers is on the Guthion label, because of its extremely high toxicity to humans. What I'm getting at, is that acreage rates can be converted to smaller square footage plantings to meet the label requirements. Below is a link from the Virgina extension discussing backpack spraying.

Regarding the Pecan full dilute spray, I wasn't referring to specifically to the Imidan label. I was trying to give an example why one must take the spray volume figures on the label with a grain of salt. Again if you are spraying full sized apple trees 550gal/acre is about right for a full dilute spray. But for smaller trees much less gallonage is required for a full dilute. You are correct the EPA is not as concerned with the amount of product applied per tree, but the amount applied per land area. Their big concern is non-point source pollution, not controlling pests. However, they control how the labels are written, so the most compliant with the label, is to apply at the labeled rate per land area. That necessarily means for larger trees, the pesticide is more diluted on the foliage

    Bookmark   June 28, 2009 at 1:42PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
myk1(5 IL)

Did you go to the EPA's webpage on Imidan I gave? You can't get more "straight from the horse's mouth" than that. I'd think once I posted that it would end the debate on whether it was still allowed for home use. It's not about inside the home unless you're thinking people are growing fruit trees inside. It very clearly states fruit trees and listed the fruit trees.
Find me something from the EPA saying otherwise more recently and I'll believe otherwise. Ask your sources to find something from the EPA. But until it comes from the EPA my information from the EPA trumps all as far as "by the book" goes.

It could be that these went into effect in '06 and '08 and old labeled stock is still out there. It could also be that those who are saying it's still on the retail market haven't tried buying it since the change. I know what I read on this forum that said you could get it in SC at Walmarts was wrong because my brother was there a week or two after that post so I had him check for me, I think he even checked a garden center.

Did you go to the previous link I provided from Iowa's extension with the effectiveness chart? Personally I've seen gamma cyhalothrin be very effective and only somewhat effective depending on the tree and timing but it's hard to really judge from only one year and a strange year at that. According to the pros it is effective at least at professional strength.
For me it works where the 70% Imidan would not, I can't stay out of my yard for 3 days every 7-10 days.

PHI is harvest. REI is reentry. I said PHI, it's a 21 day PHI on apples. That's pretty long.

What do you mean it is restricted? Go to Walmart, if you can buy Triazicide then gamma cyhalothrin must not be restricted, Proaxis may be restricted but gamma cyhalothrin isn't because Triazicide is gamma cyhalothrin.
If you mean you need to be licensed to spray Proaxis that is just like any other professional spray. Being a pro you should know that. Knowing you're a pro is why I suggested Proaxis if you wanted to try it.

Warrior is lambda cyhalothrin, they are different yet similar. I don't know why Cornell would say they are "identical" but different, that is an oxymoron and way below their standards.
From what I was reading the gamma is the better.

The deal with pyrethriods on mites, bees and fish is what gets me about the EPA taking Imidan away for home use but allowing pyrethroids.

My backyard is 1/10 of an acre according to an online calculator. By modern high density standards that should be 40-60 dwarf apple trees. But that would take away any other use of my yard. The house would also block the sun from at least one row. As it is I'm pretty packed with 7 apples, 2 cherries, 2 grapes, a garden and a little room to move.
So how do you figure that per acreage? What about if I squeeze 3 more trees in next year, did my acreage increase or stay the same?
Should I always spray 55 gallons based on my acreage whether I'm spraying 3 apples, 7 apples or all 11 fruiting plants? I don't think I've ever had to spray more than 3 gallons on my 5 full grown trees so why would I need to ever spray 55 gallons?
See what I'm getting at?
There is no way to figure a tree here and a tree there into acreage, there is too much wasted space. So figure the trees per acre on the average commercial orchards divide by gallons per acre and then use that as your gallon per tree.

    Bookmark   June 28, 2009 at 2:54PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
alan haigh

I originally thought residential on the Imidan label had to mean residential neighborhoods and spent a great deal of time researching the issue. As I said, I contacted the NYDEC pesticide division and the man I spoke to was at first confused himself because he knew it was legal to spray things like crabapples with Imidan in residential settings.

The legality of these applications pertained to commercial 3A applicators who apply pesticide to peoples yards, shopping malls and such. I had to renew my license last Sept. so I encountered the legal definition of "residential" according to environmental conservation law in a publication used for test preperation. I spoke to a national Gowan rep on the phone as well to be absolutely sure. As I recall the label says "not for residential use" and not "not for use in residential areas". I am absolutely positive that there is no federal law against the use of Imidan in residential areas. If anyone wants to argue the point, please do a little research first. Call Gowan and your state DEC pesticide division and come back to me.

As far as backpack sprayers, the main problem is getting adequate coverage because they don't blow the leaves around while spray is applied. Careful use of a good BP sprayer usually works well if the trees aren't too big.

As far as figuring out quantity per acre to quantity per gallon ratios, I just go to Cornell's spray recs and if they don't suggest a quantity per 100 gallons that I can easily divide by 4 (or most of you by 100) for my 25 gallon sprayer I compare the ratio of another material where they list both per acre and per 100 gallons rates and use that as a templet (as far as ratio, not actual amounts). Of course for liquids you have to find another liquid formulation and powders another powder and then you have to weigh the powder to find out how much a TBS or cup weighs. I realize this is a roundabout method but I can never seem to find a proper conversion chart for this when I need it.

    Bookmark   June 28, 2009 at 3:21PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
myk1(5 IL)


Failure to provide that answer the first time tells me no, or you did and don't like what you saw.
Like it or not the EPA trumps state divisions.

    Bookmark   June 28, 2009 at 3:30PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
olpea(zone 6 KS)

Hi Myk,

I understand your dilemma. For some reason, I don't think I've communicated clearly what I'm trying to say. I agree I wouldn't spray 55 gallons based on your acreage. That's what I've been trying to say. Allow me say it more clearly/strongly. You can ignore the acre gallonage numbers on the label. As an example, growers commonly spray concentrate sprays of 30 gal/acre. This is entirely legal. So, in your circumstances, if you can cover your trees with 3 gal, that's what I would use. In terms of how much chemical to apply, you could measure the radius of the canopy of each tree to find the area under each tree, and convert you square footage to an acre basis to determine how much chemical to use. Agreed, that takes a bit of effort and calculations, but it's essentially how it's figured for commercial growers who use banded applications of pesticides. That said, I think your method of of taking trees per acre/ gallons per acre and then use that as gallons per tree, works as well. It's essentially a couple different ways of saying the same thing. However, I think 550 gal is too much volume for a full dilute spray on a semi-dwarf orchard. 300 gal/acre is the standard.

Since there has been some discussion on the staying power of Proaxis, you and Hman may be interested in the last issue of Scaffolds. Here is what Cornell said about residual control: "The greatest risk comes when rain occurs seven days after a treatment that was exposed to ultraviolet degradation. All materials show reduced performance after two inches of rain when residues had aged seven days prior to a rain event. Based on his current data, he suggests if the rain is 0.1 inches, the expense of re-treating is not justified unless sprays were made more than seven days ago. A half-inch of rain specifically using Asana, Assail, and Proclaim, may justify an addtional treatment for codling moth. At one inch and seven days, all treatments except Delegate and Altacor would need re-application, while at two inches, everything would need to be reapplied."

If you want to read the whole article, it comes from Scaffolds issue # 14. The title of the article is "Down by the River". Scaffolds is available on the internet, so you can Google it, if interested.

    Bookmark   June 28, 2009 at 3:59PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo

Myk1: I went to your link, the displayed page doesn't have anything to say about final decisions on phosmet. The link below probably does but my darned computer won't pull the PDFs up for me to read. I take it these are what you are talking about as there are some, "final decision" PDF links there. I'd like to know what is contained in them and hope I can figure out the problem I'm having pulling the documents up one of these days. Maybe Hman had the same problem I did.

    Bookmark   June 28, 2009 at 4:34PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
alan haigh

Mykl, the wording is "household fruit tree" used in the same paragraph as pets and houseplants. I have never in my life heard a fruit tree in someones yard called a "household fruit tree". You can stick with your definition or you can call someone and find out what they mean by the word "household". I would bet you money that they mean indoor fruit plants because I have read the legal definition of "residential" in the label's context (environmental conservation law).

We are like lawyers here, debating imprecise wording that is either enforced one way or another. I NY it is enforced they way I define it and I'm good with that. This is what I do for a living and I wouldn't be risking my license. Call the DEC- they enforce the law and their interpretation is all that matters.

You are wrong about Imidan being nationally restricted. I can pick it up it CT anytime I want and bought it there last year just because it was convenient. It was at a commercial supply house for professional landscapers (no commercial fruit growers anywhere within some distance) and it had only been in stock for a month. I bought the last of it but he told me he'd order more if I wanted a whole case. They only order one case a season except by special order (Valley Green Supply, a chain, this one in Norwalk CT). You can easily find out that restriction is a state by state issue if you really care.

I repeat, I have friends without a spray license who routinely buy 4 pound bags of Gowan Imidan in CT at numerous sources (including CPS in Amenia NY if they show a CT ID) and I myself have purchased it at a single source 15 months ago without showing my license. It's just no longer packaged for home use.

Always fun battling you but if you have a final word it will be THE final word.

    Bookmark   June 28, 2009 at 5:16PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo

Glenn: see what you started?

    Bookmark   June 28, 2009 at 7:44PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
glenn_russell(6b RI)

Hi everyone-

What I've started indeed!

This has been one of those weekends where every hour has been occupied by some event (tournament, cookouts, church events, parties, etc.) and I've only had just a couple minutes to scan the texts as they have come in. In the next couple of days, I plan to re-read this thread quite a few times, digest it, and attempt to come up with my novice reply. In the mean time, thank you again for all words of caution, helpful tips & calculations, and spirited debate. For now, only one word (from me) regarding the legality of it... I most likely would not have purchased it had I thought/known it was restricted.

Just to guarantee that this thread generates an additional 35 replies, I figured I'd give just a bit more information. I decided to contact the seller and see what his take on it was. His reply is below.

Thanks guys again for all that you do. It is appreciated.

Hi! In no way is this chemical restricted, it is completely legal for me to sell it and to ship it to anyone who orders and pays me for it. There are many farm supply stores all over the country, you could walk in and purchase everything I sell off the shelf, pay for it and walk out the door with it.
We have been in this business for over 50 years, and we would not be doing it if it were illegal. It would be impossible for me to know the laws in your state, that is really up to you. We used to sell it in a smaller size, also, which might have been best for you...hard to tell how much you need for your "home orchard." If you use it carefully, following the label instructions to the letter, it is very safe and effective.
There are always people who have "lengthly discussions" about all pesticides, some environmentalists do not feel that any chemicals whatsoever should be used, ever. The chemicals I sell are all EPA and USDA registered, and I would suggest you can find out more about them at their websites. There are many chemicals which are "restricted use only" and require a license to sell, purchase and use them. We do not carry any of them.
If you feel that you have made a mistake and want to return the unopened package of Imidan, please feel free to, for an immediate refund of the purchase price. I would completely understand.
Best wishes, Hope Lumis

    Bookmark   June 28, 2009 at 11:30PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
alan haigh

I argue with Mykl all the time on this site and I suppose there have been times when both of us have been careless with facts which is a habit that the internet is very good at beating down. At least I always learn something when we get going- hope the rest of you get some benefit as well.

    Bookmark   June 29, 2009 at 6:24AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
theaceofspades(7 Long Island)

Glen, I hope you return it. I use permethrin/Mycobutinil with complete control with my third spray yesterday. 'Fruit Tree Spray' was only Fair. It has been raining alot so I could have waited longer to spray. Funny folks show how easy it is to get Imidan but never mention protective suits and resprirators as it doesn't break down easily. When I spray up to a high branch overspray goes 25 feet off the tree onto the lawn. You are supposed to use what works no be a mad scientist.

    Bookmark   June 29, 2009 at 6:42AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo

Can you use permethrin after petal fall? I thought most labels said you cant. Or im I thinking of something else?

    Bookmark   June 29, 2009 at 8:03AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
glenn_russell(6b RI)

Hi AceOfSpades-
Im thinking Im probably not going to return it, but Im also not going to be using it any time soon. Many of the words of caution have seemed to hit home, and I admit that Im a bit worried about it. (Most worried about tracking it into a house where it wont break down) I had always purchased this as a "this is what the serious growers use I dont need it now but since its hard to obtain better get it now while I can just in case" type of purchase. But now At the very least, Ill certainly be giving Permethrin a chance.

Of course youre right about the whole No permethrin after pedal fall issue. Jellyman had a well formulated response to that in the link below. I think Ive made my peace with that and have accepted as the lesser of two evils. (meaning Imidan or using the Permethrin after pedal fall)
For my friends 30 tree existing orchard (which has PC established in it), I think Ill start a new thread about how to best integrate Permethrin spraying (timing, # of sprays) into the rest of my plan. Yes, the label has indications, but thats not always what you want for example with my other sprays, I dont need to spray nearly as much as what the label says.

Thanks guys...

    Bookmark   June 29, 2009 at 8:33AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
myk1(5 IL)

I'm considering mailing the EPA. But I like to stay off government radar and I really have no horse in the race so I don't know if it is worth my time or stamp.

With Triazicide being registered for apples there is really no need to risk whether there is a real reason to not spray permethrin on apple fruit. It's a pyrethroid, a synthetic version of pyrethrum. (Pyrethrum doesn't last long enough to be an effective protective "organic" pesticide.)
Gamma cyhalothrin causes skin irritation so you probably won't ever see it being used on dogs for fleas like permethrin but as far as insects go, what I understood of the scientific lingo it's better than permethrin.
I don't recall how much my TSC permethrin cost but the $8 for Triazicide at Menards isn't going to break the bank and availability is probably better for Triazicide.

I'd hold onto it too, Glen.
Although if they do ban it and you or one of your heirs decides to turn it in for disposal you may run into a fun time like a friend of mine who saw some old banned chemical (DDT?) at a garage sale and offered to take it in. He was treated like a terrorist and they treated his car like a toxic waste spill even though the packaging was intact.
As they say, no good deed goes unpunished.

    Bookmark   June 29, 2009 at 11:23AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo

I have a neighbor/friend who is an IL epa agent. I will ask him and get the legal details of imidan and "residential use"

myk1: Im going on 3 weeks from my last spectracide spray, I have some bonide spray left over, think I should use that for cm and apm? I will be putting up sticky traps tonight.

    Bookmark   June 29, 2009 at 1:37PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
myk1(5 IL)

Bonide fruit tree spray seemed to work OK for me last year on codling moth and apple maggot. The codling moth stopped as soon as I started spraying, I'd spray when I started trapping apple maggot and then I'd stop catching them for a couple weeks. So it must've worked on both for me.
Most people on here will say it's not worth spraying, I guess it depends on how resistant your bugs are.

My problem with it was I seemed to have drops right after spraying it. Not many drops per spray but when each spray causes drops it was adding up.

I was thinking of doing a spray with Bonide before I go to straight malathion just to see if it does anything against the Japanese beetles. I haven't seen any signs of codling moth or apple maggot yet and they should be starting, but the Japanese beetles are doing a number on my grapes and new trees.

I've got one spray left with Triazicide that I'd like to keep in reserve should a major problem come up.

    Bookmark   June 29, 2009 at 3:18PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
alan haigh

I didn't mean to get people nervous with the tracking in the house scenario. Imidan has been widely used for decades and I've never heard it implicated in any health issue not involving sweaty workers whose skin is in continuous contact with plants recently sprayed. It was just a precautionary statement on my part and something I think about when I use the stuff.

I don't think Imidan is particularly dangerous and the label doesn't call for a respirator- just a hat, boots and long sleeve shirt. The respirator is for when you measure the stuff out in small batches.

Just because permethrin is related to an organic pesticide doesn't mean that there are no dangers. Some organic pesticides have been shown to be carcinogenic- hell,
stinging nettles are carcinogenic. There was concern some years ago about high rates of stomach cancer in certain parts of Wales and it was connected to sheep feeding on stinging nettles and being eaten by the cancer victims.

There have been surveys of the health history of southern orchard workers that revealed no smoking gun corellation to higher rates of cancer and a lot of these people ride on open tractors all day long breathing pesticide mist while they spray.

If Permethrin causes mite flare-ups as does it's relative Proaxis and Warrior, Imidan is probably your best IPM solution.

You home orchardists should relax in my opinion. You just aren't doing all that much spraying.

    Bookmark   June 29, 2009 at 5:44PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
theaceofspades(7 Long Island)

No Permethrin after petal fall is just for Apples. Don't know why.
8 applications on Peaches until seven days before harvest.
Permethrin costs $6 a 4 gal. sprayer full. I'll bet Imidan is about a buck for to make four gallons. Is there a cheaper source of Permethrin besides Bonide pints?

    Bookmark   June 29, 2009 at 7:24PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
myk1(5 IL)

"Just because permethrin is related to an organic pesticide doesn't mean that there are no dangers."

I hope I didn't imply that.
I think fact that you squirt permethrin on your dog and then have the dog getting petted by the kids and running around the house sleeping on the bed, etc. is what proves it to be rather benign.
But note I only say rather, I don't think it's such a great idea to squirt it on a dog that is getting petted by the kids and running around the house sleeping on the bed, etc.

Pyrethrum isn't even safe and the fact that you'd have to spray it every 1-3 days is what makes it not a good "organic" alternative. If it was I probably never would've went chemical.

No mite flare ups from Triazicide here so far. It could be that since I'm spraying such a small section of the world the predator populations don't get wiped out.

My main reason not to get Imidan is having to buy 4lbs of it. Having to break open packets designed to be dropped in 100 gallon tanks and having to use a percentage that is for farm fields not yards is just icing on the cake.

Man, theaceofspades, your NYC prices sure are high. I can't think of anything that is $6 for 4 gallons. Even Immunox is only 50¢/gallon for trees here and that's only because I have to buy it at an expensive store.
TSC Permethrin is pretty cheap.

    Bookmark   June 29, 2009 at 9:01PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
franktank232(z5 WI)

I see Menards has Triazicide concentrate on sale right now.

I was cutting open some plums that had fallen off my tree. Inside was a little worm, which i take is the dreaded demon PC!? I need to spray early, because i noticed a lot of marks on my plums in late May/early June.

We could still be using Lead Arsenate.

    Bookmark   June 29, 2009 at 10:51PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
olpea(zone 6 KS)

Generally organophosphates (like Imidan) are somewhat more toxic than pyrethroids. However, commercial pyrethroids have about the same LD 50 values as Imidan (LD 50 is the lethal dose in which 50% of the rat population dies from acute exposure). Triazicide concentrate would have a much higher LD 50 value (safer) because it's a much weaker concentration, than anything sold commercially (Proaxis). Keep in mind many household products would also have LD 50 values, i.e. nail polish remover, drain cleaners. Even dish soap would would be lethal if you drank enough. The key to the margin of safety is level of exposure.

After reading the EPA decision, and comparing Imidan to other pesticides, it doesn't appear to me Imidan is significantly more dangerous than other insecticides, as long as REI and PHI are followed.

Imidan carries a "Warning" signal word on the label. Some formulations of the common fungicides captan and chlorothalinil, carry the more severe signal word of "Danger".

Comparing Imidan to gamma cyhalothrin, the pyrethroid does have lower acute toxicity. Other than that, the only real difference seems to be that Imidan, like all organophosphates is a cholinesterase inhibitor. Imidan is only listed as a possible carcinogen, which given all the proven carcinogens out there, is a pretty good rating.

However, comparing Imidan to the common household pesticide Sevin, except for acute toxicity, it appears that Imidan is the safer. Carbaryl is listed as a carcinogen and a cholinesterase inhibitor.

Imidan's label for pet usage has been cancelled (probably because of the somewhat higher acute toxicity than other insecticides). Some formulations of permethrin and carbaryl are labeled for pets.

All that said, water soluable packets are not designed to be opened and individually metered out. If one chooses to do this, extra precautions, like a respirator are probably in order. The dust in the packet is probably very fine, as such, it may be easily inhaled.

    Bookmark   June 30, 2009 at 3:19PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
alan haigh

Olpea, thanks for that, very generous of you to go to the trouble of such a thoughtful report. Now you'll have me running to review labels. I don't recall Captan having a Danger rating.

    Bookmark   June 30, 2009 at 4:35PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
olpea(zone 6 KS)

Thanks Hman,

I'm not sure all captan labels carry a Danger rating. The Captan 80W I use, does. I assume it carries a Danger rating because of the risk of permanent blindness, with eye exposure. I use Captan 80 because, unlike some Captan 50 formulations, Captan 80 has a 24 hr. REI, vs. a 3 day REI for other formulations.

For chlorothalinil, I have Echo, which also carries a Danger rating. I don't know why this particular formulation carries such a severe rating. I think you use Bravo, does it carry the same?

    Bookmark   June 30, 2009 at 5:35PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
franktank232(z5 WI)

I'm just buying a bag of chew and adding some water and using that for my all purpose spray :) Grandma lived 86 years being a chain smoking, mean alcoholic. :)

How do you figure when to spray? Do you watch growing degree days, traps, or just have set times you spray?

I've been watching gdd here, but may order/build some traps too.

    Bookmark   June 30, 2009 at 6:32PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
olpea(zone 6 KS)


RE: Tobacco

Well, whatever works. The oldtimers used to use blackleaf 40. As Lucky once pointed out, I imagine there were some racing heartbeats applying that stuff.

As to when I spray, my situation is probably different than most people. There are lots of unsprayed stone and pome fruits around, which produce lot's of inoculum. Additionally, there are bean fields 1/4 mile away that produce lots of stink bugs. We get tons of rain through spring, and a fair amount through summer. In other words, there is a continual flow of insects from nearby sources. Additionally, one day I hope to start selling peaches retail. I've sold a bit of other fruits this season, and last. The high expectation of high quality fruit demands a rigorous spray program. This year I've been spraying some fairly soft stuff, and as a result have a significant amount of catfacing on my peaches. I've resorted to Mustang Max to get a general kill down. I should have used it sooner.

In short, I spray as tight an interval as one week, or as long an interval as two weeks, depending on the rain. This year, with the weather we've had, the interval has been closer to one week.

    Bookmark   June 30, 2009 at 7:27PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
franktank232(z5 WI)

Ouch... My peaches look pretty good and i've yet to spray them :)

    Bookmark   June 30, 2009 at 8:03PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
myk1(5 IL)

I remember when "tobacco juice" was often suggested in organic circles.
I don't know when they figured out they were basically making Blackleaf 40 but they started putting all kinds of warnings along with it and eventually stopped recommending that.
But it was "organic".

    Bookmark   June 30, 2009 at 8:43PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
alan haigh

Olpea, what's Mustang Max? That's not a commercial name I'm familiar with. The stuff here recommended for stinkbugs is all restricted, but catfacing here is usually not excessively destructive. The stinkbugs sometimes make a real mess of Seckel pears, though. I just grit and bear it because I really hate bringing out the heavy poisons later in the season.

    Bookmark   June 30, 2009 at 9:13PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
olpea(zone 6 KS)

Mustang Max is restricted, but I have my applicator's license. Mustang Max is a pyrethroid, but research suggests it is one of the more powerful ones. One of the commercial publications said Mustang Max could be sprayed at a 3 day interval with heavy earworm pressure on sweet corn, whereas, other commercial pyrethroids like Pounce should be applied at 2 day intervals (pesticides must be applied on very tight intervals for sweet corn, as the moth lays eggs primarily on new silk, and the silk grows quite rapidly, so it's a challenge for growers to keep the new silk covered with insecticide residue.) Mustang Max lists a wide variety of fruit and veg. crops on the label. It is labeled for stink bugs. As with other commercial pyrethroids, it's very cheap. About 3 cents per gal for a full dilute spray. The drawback of course is mite flares on pomes, which would probably make it a non-starter for you. With the rain we get here, I don't think mite flares are quite the problem, as the rain washes both the mite and the pesticide off.

    Bookmark   June 30, 2009 at 9:42PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
alan haigh

Olpea, I only wish rain was useful in preventing mite flare-ups. Although dry dusty weather is supposed to encourage mites and scale, when I use Sevin on Jap beetles I often get mites shortly thereafter- even last year when a week didn't go by without heavy rain. This year I may include some summer oil if I have to deal with JB's at sites with mites. It's been so cool that I will probably be able to. However, I'm not sure if it will be affective.

You don't happen to know any poisons for JB's that aren't so harmful to beneficials? Cornell doesn't even mention this pest in its guidelines. I also have an applicators licence- cagegory 3A, so I have access to whatever's out there.

    Bookmark   July 1, 2009 at 7:02AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
olpea(zone 6 KS)

Hi Hman,

I thought about emailing you personally, because I'm not sure if other folks are getting bored with the direction of the thread, but I decided to post again here in case there are others interested. My apologies, if this is becoming dull and dry to some.

The new issue of Scaffolds recommends Assail, Calypso, or Sevin, for Japanese beetle. You mention Sevin is no good for you. That leaves Calypso and Assail. I don't much about Calypso. It is a neonicotinoid and thus, a systemic. However, according to some info. its residue has a stronger plant surface profile than other neonicotinoids. This may make it a bit harder on beneficials, but it is recommended by Cornell. I've used Assail a couple times this season. It's also a neonicotinoid with systemic action. Supposedly it can cause mite flares, IF, used in conjunction with pyrethroids. One time a day or two after using it I noticed some dead lady beetles on the foliage, but they may have been there when I sprayed, or landed on wet spray. Another time, a few days after spraying, I noticed a live and healthy Assassin bug on some foliage. I know they don't eat mites, but I viewed its presence as a good sign. Assail is not restricted, but has the words "Ag Use Only" on the label. I'm not sure if Calypso carries those words.

I'm wondering why you don't just use Imidan for Jap beetles. Is it not effective? Assail is about 1/2 again more expensive than Imidan. Based on your figures above, it looks like Imidan runs about a dime per gal of finished spray. Assail is about 16 cents. It isn't any significant difference to me, but you manage a lot of orchards and it may be a big deal for you.

    Bookmark   July 1, 2009 at 11:22AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo

Olpea and Hman, I'm definitely learning a lot (and I'm sure I'm not the only one), so please keep going.

    Bookmark   July 1, 2009 at 11:47AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
alan haigh

I believe Imidan is not labled for Jap beetles and not recommended by Cornell. I called Mike Fargione, the Cornell commercial fruit production guru, and he recommended Calypso as you suggested Cornell does. He noted that there were no warnings in the literature in front of him about flare-ups which was at least a positive sign.

The cost of materials is not that important (with a few exceptions like Esteem, which costs about as much a gold). My clients are mostly multi-millionaires and I can easily pass on a few extra bucks per orchard. These orchards are mostly less then an acre.

Don't think you have to worry about boring anyone else, anyone who took the time to scroll to the bottom has to be fascintated by the general topic.

    Bookmark   July 1, 2009 at 11:59AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
olpea(zone 6 KS)

Well, it's been a long time since I've looked at the Imidan label, since I don't use it, but the current Midwest spray guide recommends Imidan for Jap beetle. I also have an older (2007) Michigan spray guide, and it gives Imidan, as well as Guthion, an "excellent" rating for Japanese beetle. I wonder if Cornell is simply trying to stay away from organophosphates.

    Bookmark   July 1, 2009 at 12:21PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
olpea(zone 6 KS)

Just started looking at Michigan's latest CAT advisory. There is an article in there about Japanese beetle control. Looks like they are still rating Imidan as excellent for JB. Pretty good article.

    Bookmark   July 1, 2009 at 3:57PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
glenn_russell(6b RI)

Hi Olpea/Harvestman/all-

Olpea - Thank you for that great report above!

So, perhaps the latter part of this thread has made me feel a little less paranoid about Imidan, and perhaps a little more paranoid about every other insecticide out there!

So, from what Im seeing here, Imidan is most dangerous in its powered form, and not much more dangerous than plenty of other insecticides when its actually being sprayed. So, when Im transferring the water soluble packets to coffee cans (like Don recommends), thats when I need to be most careful. Ill use my respirator, face shield, gloves and a change of clothes, and Ill do it outside, away from any highly trafficked areas. Ditto when extracting the small amounts of powder to mix in my tank. When I spray, Im used to wearing my respirator, hat, & face shield, so Ill continue to do that.

Whats the significance of boots as protective clothing? I can see the other stuff, but do we know what the reasoning is here?

I found it interesting that Phosmet appears to have been registered (in the past) for direct use on dogs, but it is no longer registered for that purpose due to the risk for toddlers in contact with said dogs. In my conversations with Michael357 he gave me a link to the "Reregistration Eligibility Decision for Phosmet" Im sure you guys have read it, but for me, its a bit dry and made my eye lids heavy. :-)

Are there any clogging concerns once it's in the sprayer? Like Ferbam? I'm using the Solo diaphram backpack sprayer that Don recommends.

Olpea- I know you do some commercial growing, correct? But, just out of curiosity, how is it that you are "so wise in the ways of the force"?.. I mean pesticides? I know you have your private applicators license, but is there something else in your background? Or are insecticides/fungicides just a hobby for you? :-)

Harvestman Have you ever had the need to get your private applicators license? Or have you been able to control everything for your customers using non restricted chemicals?

Really guys, great information here. For some of us, its a little like drinking from a firehouse! By all means, keep it going for as long as its fruitful!

Thanks again guys,

P.S. Ive gotten a few email requests to subdivide the order If anyone else was hoping for that, Im afraid Im not ready to do that at the moment, so hopefully this comment will save you the effort. Thanks!

    Bookmark   July 1, 2009 at 5:32PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
alan haigh

In NY you need a license to apply anything in a business , even Surround- even with a back-pack sprayer, I believe. Imidan is restricted in NY and I need my license to get that. It's the only restricted pesticide I use besides rodent bait.

If you use Imidan, be sure your water isn't alkaline- use a buffer if necessary to get your best bang out of it. Best if the pH is below 6 and it's important that it is below 7. Check the label on this- it does mention it.

Rubber boots are used because while walking on dewey ground the Imidan can pass right through your boots- at least that's why I use them. They call for them in mixing because they are much easier to clean without pushing the Imidan inward to the inside of the boot.

    Bookmark   July 1, 2009 at 6:23PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
theaceofspades(7 Long Island)

Harvestman, as a homeowner in New York I have to post pesticide 'Do not enter flags' every 50 feet(200 ft road frontage). I have to notify neighbors(by law) before I spray if they request it. Anything(Horticultural oil, sulfur) sprayed on trees is regulated by the NYS DEC.

Olpea says he sprays every week. Lets say I bought this Phosmet(Imidan) in a foil four pack labeled for industrial use.
I put a pound in a coffee can for safe keeping. I spoon it into my tank wearing my rubber boots, face shield and respirator. I walk around my yard looking like Haz Mat spraying stuff into the air that smells like a stink bomb. I got to make sure no pets or family play in the yard for the next three days. The stuff persists in dry conditions like in the house for as long as DDT. Then I got to worry about the neighbors cat getting autopsied. Breast cancer has the highest national rates on Long Island. Many local organizations come to my house for donations blame pesticides. Years ago I gave them a donation. I told them what I do for a hobby to get them to stop calling and it worked.

Last weekend I sprayed the third Permethrin Mycobutinil Nu-Film 17 only because it has been raining a lot lately. I found a pear and a peach with worm inside. Maybe ten flagged tips just on the 'Flat Wonderful' peach tree. My main concern is the overloaded branches breaking. I am cross tying ropes and adding support posts. It has been a perfect year in my Orchard.

    Bookmark   July 1, 2009 at 9:41PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
bart1(6/7 Northern VA)

About 40 messages ago, Don said he was using less than 1/2 TBS per gallon. If I were using a 1.5 gallon sprayer, what would that equal in Imidan?

1/2 tablespoon and 1 teaspoon?


    Bookmark   July 1, 2009 at 10:19PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
myk1(5 IL)

I wear rubber boots with everything because it's impossible to spray my trees without walking on the wet ground at some point in the game. Rubber boots are easy to wash off.

So the way I read that RED is Imidan is only illegal for home use because it is not consistent with labeling to, break open the WSP packaging or use it in residential areas other than for fire ants (sorry harvestman, I don't think your lawyer-eze is going to work to change residential to residence) and (according to another document) spray it within XX feet of a dwelling.
The way they managed to do that without actually banning it is to pressure the maker to stop making amounts for home use and home use concentrations available so there would be no label suitable for home use.

Basically they made the problem worse for those who will use it. Instead of Bonide Imidan WSP people who will use it have to break open 100 gallon WSP of strong percentage.

I'm left scratching my head wondering how they figure 10 gallons per homeowner fruit tree. But then again they use the worst case of the homeowner barefoot, shorts and a cigarette hanging out of their mouth while spraying.
That's the government for you.

    Bookmark   July 1, 2009 at 10:25PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
franktank232(z5 WI)

I'm wearing something like this when i spray Sevin...

I've got a young child so i'm done spraying anything except Mycobutanil in the spring for CAR and i might try a Neemix or a homemade tobacco spray and want to try Surround (early for PC) and then bag everything i can.

    Bookmark   July 1, 2009 at 10:47PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
glenn_russell(6b RI)

Hi Bart-
There is a great free program that I use for doing all my conversions: Google "Convert.exe". It converts all sorts of volumes, and about 25 other categories.

I think you are close, but not exact. The way I see it, at that rate, you need 0.75 Tablespoons for a 1.5 gallons. 0.75 Tablespoons is also 2.25 Teaspoons (because there are 3 tsp per tbsp). If you subtract off your 1/2 tablespoons, and you're left with .75 teaspoons instead of 1.00. For me, the 2.25 teaspoons is easier to visualize.

Be sure to check my arithmetic... it's late... and the wine was good.

    Bookmark   July 1, 2009 at 11:00PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
olpea(zone 6 KS)


I logged on tonight and saw the thread is up to almost 70 messages. We keep going and we're going to break a hundred. Well here's one more contribution.


I'm not sure I really know all that much about pesticides. I did a lot of research before I started using them. Hman knows more than I do. He has his commercial applicator's license, whereas I've only got my private applicator's license. Plus, he's been doing it for a long time.

On the boots, Hman's right, the concern is the pesticide soaking through the the material, or absorbing it. The EPA has different categories of Personal Protective Equipment. Believe it or not, even the type of gloves required is strictly defined, depending on the material being sprayed. Off the top of my head, some of the materials are Viton and butyl rubber. There are four or five different types of glove material. Each one is for a different category of material being sprayed. Some of the better quality materials are approved for several categories. I can't remember of the top of my head what type of gloves I had to have, but they weren't real expensive. 20 bucks for 3 pair, or something like that. A pair of regular old rubber mud boots is fine for what you'll be spraying. I could go on and on about headgear and respirator requirements, but I don't want to overwhelm, and it sounds like you are using common sense and plenty of caution. I think you'll do fine. Quite frankly, you are way ahead on safety compared to what most farmers use. They've done surveys, and unfortunately, the most protective equipment most farmers use, is leather gloves, and a ball cap.

In terms of tracking it into your house, if you observe REI, I don't think you'll have much to worry about. In the EPA final decision, they talked about workers entering the field after 3 days and working all day in the stuff thinning fruits . In the decision, I'm sure they realized those workers have homes to go to. If you observe the REI, any amount you track in your house will be insignificant compared to an ag worker. Again, just about everything is toxic at some exposure level, but some things are hot buttons that instill paranoia.

Again, Imidan doen't seem to me it is any more dangerous once it's applied, than many other common pesticides, as long as REI is observed. Did you know chlorothalinil, captan, and as I mentioned, carbaryl, are all listed as carcinogens? Furthermore, captan is approved for use in dipping harvested apples to prevent storage rots (gasp!). I should point out, apples must be machine dipped, hand dipping is not allowed.

There are poisons and carcinogens all around us, even naturally occuring in food. Gasoline, some construction glues, some mold inhibitors in paints, all carcinogens. Did you know drinking water contains lead? In fact, lead occurs naturally in most soils. Something like 40 lbs./acre ft. Drinking water also contains radioactive material. Our drinking water contains Uranium. The EPA knows all this and regulates amounts to keep exposure at an acceptable margin of safety. True, some folks may not feel comfortable, with their margin of safety, but it seems to me, arbitrary, to single out pesticides as the one area to scrutinize their methodology.

Glen, perhaps we need to sit back, drink some of your wine, and smoke a pack of cigarettes. We want to make sure we're doing this while applying pesticides.

    Bookmark   July 2, 2009 at 1:19AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
alan haigh

With clear logic and some careful research you can go a long way if you don't start off by putting all your energy into proving what you believed in the first place. Olpea is proof of this to me- but then, he thinks like me on the issue of relative risks of pesticide exposure. To me his logical deductions are like a breath of fresh air.

I was once a proponent of organic orthodoxy. I'm not saying here that clear logic and research can't lead to seperate answers but yesterday I was talking to a landscaper who didn't want to work under trees I had sprayed with Indar because he's just not comfortable with chemicals. He told me this while smoking a cigarette.

Mykl, I'm still waiting for you to make one phone call to your states DEC pesticide enforcement center and see how they are enforcing the law. It really doesn't matter how either one of us interprets the law, but how law enforcement does. I have made the calls because I can't afford to be mistaken. It's not about losing an argument but losing about 10 grand and maybe my license.

If I was trying to grow fruit trees in suburban Long Island, I don't think I'd use Imidan. Homeowners are not required to post warnings to my knowledge- only commercial sprayers. Is this a town ordinance?

If I was only spraying a few trees, I wouldn't bother wearing a mask. Just a wide brimmed hat, rubber boots, nitrile gloves and coveralls. The mask is for breaking up the bags of powders.

Get your gloves and boots from Gemplers. Nitrtile is the material for gloves using the pesticides we've mentioned here. You can pay under $3 a pair. Sportsmans Guide has the best price I could find on heavy cotton coveralls.

Wash spray clothing seperately (not with the babies diapers).

    Bookmark   July 2, 2009 at 6:09AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
myk1(5 IL)

And I'm still waiting for you to make a phone call to the EPA. That's who made the rule not any state's environmental agency. You're the one with the real stake in the truth.
It's not the cop on the beat you need to talk to, it's the lawyer in the head office.

Since this was through the EPA why wouldn't someone who's not trying to twist things to suit their wishes and has their livelihood riding on it just write to the EPA and ask for clarification? But of course that would put you on their radar and you might discover that if the feds want to enforce a law they will, or they'll simply call up your DEC and tell them to enforce it.
Why would I put myself on the ILEPA radar when joe-il said he'd check with a neighbor that works for the ILEPA? I have no stake in Imidan and if I did I would go at it knowing and admitting I wasn't following the rules.

Read the RED. It's pretty clear that it says this was a voluntary withdrawal.
It's pretty obvious that breaking open WSPs to mix them in less than 100 gallon batches is not in accordance with the label. That itself is against federal law according to the label.
It's your business so contact the people who matter not the people who will tell you what you want to hear.

What you seem to refuse to understand because I'm not saying what you want to hear is I think the rules are stupid the way I read them or even the way you read them. I would like some 1-3 gallon Imidan WSPs sold in homeowner sized packaging, I would like 25 gallon WSPs for you. I am not saying it should be banned, I am saying that without actually banning homeowners from using it through licensing they managed to make it against the labeling through pressuring the maker.

I have not been addressing any chemical risks, only the law of the label. But I guess it's easier to create an argument to tear down than to argue against the facts presented.

    Bookmark   July 2, 2009 at 7:26AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
franktank232(z5 WI)

I wore latex gloves (like they have at a hospital) when i sprayed.

    Bookmark   July 2, 2009 at 11:41AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
alan haigh

Mykl, I don't break up the bags- I dissolve them in a gallon of distilled water treated with a buffer and have the Imidan label attached to an insecticide jug containing the dissolved Imidan and try to use it up in a day (my tank's 25 gallons). I used to cut open the bags years ago.

It's interesting how the Imidan label says that use in public parks is prohibited (very clear wording there) and then it states "not for residential use" instead of "residential use prohibited".

Anyway somewhere in Article 33 of Environmental Conservation Law I read that the legal def. of residential use was use in a residence. If it wasn't so boring to go through the thing I'd give you the page. You'll just have to wait 4 years when I have to take the dam test again.

    Bookmark   July 2, 2009 at 6:08PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo

Havent talked to my friend yet, he's been busy with a train derailment that leaked 6 carloads of ethanol into the kishwauke river that caused a fish kill.

This thread has been a great read and would like to thank all of the pro guys for taking time of their busy season to help us noobs.

from the epa site:

* lower seasonal maximum application rates
* prohibition of phosmet application until after certain high-exposure activities have occurred
* a 25-foot buffer zone around occupied dwellings for ground applications
* a 50-foot buffer zone around occupied dwellings for aerial applications
* health protective entry restrictions for pick-your-own operations

everything you wanted to know about phosmet but were to paranoid to ask lol

    Bookmark   July 2, 2009 at 7:08PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo

another good read is here. (old from '02) But I think most over the counter/box store pesticides will be gone in 10 years.

"Our book of pesticide recommendations for residential uses is being whittled down to a half sheet of paper written on just one side. Our recommendations for residential insecticides can almost be summed up in one line, "Use a pyrethroid, imidacloprid, carbaryl (Sevin) or malathion." All four of these options have serious disadvantages. Pyrethroids exacerbate problems with mites and scale insects. Additionally, some groups are already calling pyrethroids "endocrine disruptors." Using the words "endocrine disruptor" and "children" in the same sentence will become as bad as handing out cigarettes in day care centers.

Imidacloprid seems to have a strong potential for pest resistance, and it is very mobile in water. Carbaryl is very toxic to honeybees, and it is a carbamate insecticide (the group next in line for the FQPA guillotine). Malathion simply does not provide satisfactory control for many pests.

Finally (if things were not already dismal enough), the loss of the popular organophosphate insecticides will trigger increased residential use of the remaining options. Increased use will translate directly into greater potential exposure. Therefore (finally my logic class paying off), risk estimates for the remaining insecticides based on the new exposure parameters may also exceed EPA levels of concern, which will trigger additional regulatory activity against the remaining alternatives. In other words, we are not out of the woods yet. If everybody substitutes a pyrethroid for every current OP use, children could be exposed to increased levels of a group of chemicals labeled by some as "endocrine disruptors."

On the positive side, people may begin to understand how farmers feel to have chemical tools snatched away. Perhaps people will learn that an effective IPM program may depend upon a key pesticide. And maybe, just maybe, a few people will understand that adequate pesticide management is not always possible without pesticides."

    Bookmark   July 2, 2009 at 7:16PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo

Mykl: I believe part of what Hman is saying (in my own words following) is that the gods on Mt. Olympus (Fed. EPA) hand down the edicts to the states and it is up to the states to follow through with and enforce them. His rightful (IMO) concern is with his state, not with what the Fed. EPA has written. I deal with this situation in my profession with water quality issues. My state has to do what it can to enforce the federal laws regarding water quality. I have read the edicts on this from Mt. Olympus and then seen personally how my state enforces them. There is a difference. My paramount concern is not Washington but Topeka and Salina.

Hope this helps,


    Bookmark   July 2, 2009 at 9:18PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
myk1(5 IL)

It actually says, "Not for use in residential areas."

If you're right on their definitions they should have to change their wording before they could do anything to you.
But reading through the history of these changes I know what the government means and I've learned to not trust the government to follow their own rules and to expect you to do what they meant.
I think before the voluntary removal of residential packaging the plan was totally removing the fruits listed for residential removal for everyone. The original U-Pick proposal I read from a U-Pick org was to totally end its use for U-Picks.

I don't know how your millionaires are but here they buy up cornfields and divide them into 10 acre estates. As long as they don't get themselves zoned residential to push the farmers further out and to stop hunting I'd say it could be used there as long as the trees are the 25' from the dwelling.
I don't think you'd get away with saying my neighborhood wasn't a residential area. 3 of my trees are within the buffer zone of my dwelling at at least 1 each for the neighbors.

That '02 write up is what has me thinking about stocking up on Triazicide when I see a sale. I see that day coming too, especially with the pyrethroids. They're lasting too long, are a problem in the water, and think about the children.

But we're not all from the same state and Olympus is who made the rule. If you're lucky enough to have law enforcement that thinks the laws are stupid and won't enforce them it doesn't change the rules, it just makes the people in that area luckier than they probably realize.
Going back and forth on the state differences makes as much sense as Harvestman needing a license in NY and not needing one a few miles away across the border.

    Bookmark   July 3, 2009 at 3:26AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
alan haigh

Joe-il and Michael357 thanks for your elucidation. More fresh air for my brain lungs.

Mykl, thanks for the label clarification. Too much I rely on my memory for specific details but the crux of my point is the same. I have a friend who became a NYDEC pesticide division enforcer and I know that the feds don't have an enforcement arm that reaches me. It is the state that interprets and enforces the law.

However, one thing that Mykl has made me mindful of is that should someone sue me for something they blame Imidan on, Gowan might well be able to leave me hanging with that "not for use in residential areas" line. If I use the pesticide to label instructions they are the libel party if they can convince a jury that I didn't, who knows?

It all seems so murky- NY allowing Imidan use for class 3A applicators who are presumed to be doing their business in the logical definition of residential areas. Ditto for landscape contractor supply businesses that sell to the the people who maintain residential landscapes.

As far as backyard growers losing legal options to control their pests- don't lose hope. Hopefully Avaunt will become available soon- right now it's labled only for agricultural use. Trouble is that these new materials cost so much more than the old reliables. It's just like the pharma industry that way- you have to pay for all the research and licensing expenses and expanding profits.

    Bookmark   July 3, 2009 at 6:33AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
franktank232(z5 WI)

I thought PC early in the season doesn't fly as much and that is why those tedder? traps can help monitor them?

The only "organic" approach to PC that i've seen is Surround. I have to spray something next year...

    Bookmark   July 3, 2009 at 9:35AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo

Hman: You are welcome, hope I captured the essence accurately.

Myk1: I understand and appreciate your 1st sentence. On your second point, I think it is often a matter of what a state is able to do more than what they think of a federal agency ruling or federal law. I.E. if the fed. decided all roads must be paved and left it up to the states to get it done in 10 years, KS would never be able to comply with the law. Our county is about the size of RI and has 2 paved highways running through it, 98% of the rest are dirt and 1% some sort of aggregate. The total population is less than 3000. And that is just one county. Some in Washington think that paving the roads would be a great health benefit as far as particulate matter is concerned.

As far as state differences are concerned, well, they exist and it is an interesting phenomenon, at least on the surface it doesn't make much sense. I suspect the Fed is aware of states' abilities to carry out their federally imposed responsibilities.

    Bookmark   July 3, 2009 at 11:36AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
alan haigh

PC flys as soon as they emerge. First appearence is often from PC that came from elsewhere. In the northeast we only have a 3 week PC season, max in my expereince.

    Bookmark   July 3, 2009 at 7:43PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
theaceofspades(7 Long Island)

"Mutagenic effects: Almost all tests of phosmet on bacteria indicate that it does not cause any mutations [90]. However, there is a suggestion that workers producing the compound Safidon[Phosmet] show some changes in their chromosomes [8]. A definite conclusion cannot be drawn from current evidence."

    Bookmark   July 4, 2009 at 8:08AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
franktank232(z5 WI)

Cut open a few dropped peaches yesterday... Found a worms in each one. I'll have to keep picking up any drops. The worms were both alive still, but i squished them. These must be PC.

    Bookmark   July 4, 2009 at 8:27AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
alan haigh

Having reread label I found nothing that indicates opening bags violates directive of label- that is, nothing that says not to open water-soluable bags to measure smaller batches. I think it would be a stretch to call doing so illegal although a logical argument could be made that the lack of instructions about opening the water soluble bag would make doing so inconsistant with the label. I seriously doubt such an enforcement would be applied in any state.

The NYDEC likes chasing after petty violations to levy hefty fines, however- especially on large landscape companies. Homeowners wouldn't need to worry though- most you'd get is probably a warning and even that seems highly improbable even if your neighbor was a DEC cop and saw you doing it with his binoculars.

    Bookmark   July 4, 2009 at 10:29AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
myk1(5 IL)

I like what I see in the Avaunt label, mainly that grapes are listed. It's too few applications and too long between but at least grapes are there. I'm having problems finding anything effective that's approved for grapes.
I like the re-entry for apples, 12 hours for the commercial grade is do-able. Again it's too little for curculio, codling moth and apple maggot all together but my apple maggot seem weak enough that Bonide Fruit Tree works so anything that would be a good second or third cover for curculio through codling moth would be welcome.
I hope they do make a home version.

I think DC is clueless about the rest of us, michael357, not that they don't expect us to be able to do those things.
And knowing cops, there is some law enforcement that won't enforce unless they are specifically ordered to.

"It is a violation of Federal law to use this product in a manner inconsistent with its labeling."
Nowhere does the label describe anything but dropping the WSP into 100 gallon tanks.

I never figured homeowners were at risk unless they happened to have an organic activist with some friends in high places as a neighbor.
If I wanted to spray Imidan I would, just like if I wanted to dump used motor oil around my foundation I'd do that too. Just like I have fires whenever I want because the city's rules only allow burning when the garden is growing.

While I think your arguments for what constitutes "residential" and what constitutes "inconsistent with the label" would be the only arguments your lawyer could manage to press, somehow I don't think "they didn't tell me not to" will work against the government in a government court. That only works when suing a toaster company because they didn't tell you not to make toast in the bathtub.

The fact you keep on stretching tells me you know what is meant just like I do and you're looking for loopholes.

I used to think a friend was being paranoid worrying about the ILEPA when someone throws plastic into his burn bin or dumps something in a ravine until I saw news reports of them going after things just like that. The government is hungry for money so I wouldn't put anything passed them.

    Bookmark   July 4, 2009 at 11:50AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
franktank232(z5 WI)

I wonder if we get to a point where a place such as WalMart doesn't even carry pesticides? I could see a system where you need to be licensed to buy most(all?) sprays. Ever see the forms you fill out to buy a gun? Pretty soon they are going to ask for blood, fingernails and a piece of your hair :)

I wonder how it works in Europe?

    Bookmark   July 4, 2009 at 1:11PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
alan haigh

No Mykl, I honestly don't know the meaning of their wording. "Residential areas" is quite vague and not an adequate legal category. The law isn't supposed to be based on such unclear wording and NY state, which has an extremely aggressive pesticide enforcement apparatus, is allowing Imidan to be used in "residential areas". There is no confusion on this point.

If this was statute, they would say not for use within a specific distance from a residence. Other pesticides like Avaunt have on their label "for agricultural use only". I honestly think the manufacturer may have used the wording in hopes of limiting their liability without limiting their sales. Keep in mind that they do not use the word prohibited either.

I think you missed your calling- you'd have been a great DA

    Bookmark   July 4, 2009 at 5:12PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
theaceofspades(7 Long Island)

It is a violation of Federal law to use this product in a manner inconsistent with its labeling.
Do not apply this product in a way that will contact workers or other persons, either directly or through drift. Only protected handlers may be in the area
during application. For any requirements specific to your State or Tribe, consult the agency responsible for pesticide regulation.
Not for use in residential areas. Use in park or recreational areas is prohibited.

    Bookmark   July 4, 2009 at 9:18PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo

Didnt get much help from my ilepa neighbor. Pesticides are not his speciality. He refered me to the local extension office.

Its funny they can aerial spray imidan 50ft from your house, but you cant spray the tree in your back yard?

Gowan didnt renew the license for private use, that is why you dont see imidan 12.5 wp at home depot or walmart. Maybe the sales were not profitable enough, maybe liabilty to high-who knows. It was not an epa ruling. There is nothing in the Epa's "final" guidlines to suggest you cant use in residential areas. The closest they come is 25'boundry from a house.
I believe the "not for residential areas" is a gowan "cover my arse" much like how McDonald's puts "contents hot!may scald skin dont pour on lap and sue us for 5 million dollars 'cause now we told ya" It would not be illegal to pour on lap, but you cant sue because you were warned. That is why you see the 2 different wordings.
1)"Not for use in residential areas" is a warning, spray on a tree in your backyard and a dog or kid gets sick dont blame gowan.
2) "Use in park or recreational areas is prohibited" there are laws on the books and you will be bubbys little jail "friend" if you get caught.

If this is not the case then why didnt gowan just say "use in residential areas and Use in park or recreational areas is prohibited" (that would make it very clear)

really I think i would rather spray something with a long track record then some of the newer stuff that they know nothing about. Maybe my logic is wrong.

    Bookmark   July 5, 2009 at 11:25AM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
theaceofspades(7 Long Island)

"Not for use in residential areas. Use in park or recreational areas is prohibited."

The label also says Imidan is not to be used on U-pick Orchard operations. They don't want any untrained people coming in contact with Phosmet.

    Bookmark   July 5, 2009 at 12:27PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
alan haigh

No, it says 10 REI for UPicks. 10 days seems to be the big # that indicates chemical persistance. It's kindof a good and bad thing.

    Bookmark   July 5, 2009 at 2:17PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
myk1(5 IL)

14 days for U-pick. The original proposal was the complete ban for U-pick.

The original proposals are what tells me what they mean and the voluntary removal is an attempt to avoid that.

And since you're obviously following along, Joe, I saw my first Apple Maggot fly today (flying, not trapped).

    Bookmark   July 5, 2009 at 3:08PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo

thanks myk1. Are you getting japanese beetles ? they have gotten thick now, dripping off small trees.

    Bookmark   July 5, 2009 at 3:28PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
theaceofspades(7 Long Island)

-The user shall not authorize any person who is not covered by the Worker Protection Standard (WPS), such as
members of the general public involved in "pick-your-own," "U-pick," or similar operations, to enter a treated area for 14 days after application.

-Do not enter or allow entry into treated areas during the restricted entry interval (REI) of 14 days.

    Bookmark   July 5, 2009 at 3:46PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo

This is the first time I've visited this blog and have been reading with great interest. We have a small commercial orchard (380 semi-dwarf apples)and spray with a 65 gallon pull behind sprayer. My concern is with fruit or foliar damage with higher rates of Imidan, particularly when you get close to the 90 degree cut off on temperature. Have any of the midwest growers encountered exterior damage on some varieties of apples?

    Bookmark   July 6, 2011 at 3:15PM
Thank you for reporting this comment. Undo
This is their description and directions for mixing:
Buy Imidan 70-W-P online! For insect control on fruit trees. One of the most effective and economical commercial spray available to the home gardener. Use 1½ tsp. per gallon. Water pH should be lowered to 4.5-5.0.
A rule of thumb is ½ c. white vinegar per gallon of water. This greatly enhances the effectiveness of this product. Do not touch with wet hand.
Note: This product is not avalible to customers in Alaska, Wisconsin, or New York.

    Bookmark   April 10, 2014 at 9:31AM
Sign Up to comment
More Discussions
Should i go ahead and put my newly grafted pear trees in the sun?
I did 4 cleft grafts last weekend and they have been...
Questions on American Plum, Chickasaw Plum, & Beach Plum
Hi, I have limited space and will definitely be planting...
stark bros apricot with pits that taste like almonds
Does anyone have experience with this apricot variety? It...
Edwin Turlington
Fahey Scion List
Wondering if someone had the ability to and time to...
Help me choose fruit varieties to grow in NJ and nurseries
I have been reading some old posts regarding the fruit...
bemonkey Zone 7 South New Jersey
© 2015 Houzz Inc. Houzz® The new way to design your home™