primocane fruiting black raspberry - Jewel

matt_ohio(5b/6a)June 16, 2009

Several years ago I bought some Jewel black raspberry. They have always been floricane fruiting. This year I noticed for the first time that one primocane has flowers on it(the four others don't have flowers). Would it be possible to collect seeds or tip layer to propagate the floricane fruiting trait.

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tyler_j(6a)

You could but I would think if it was a primocane fruiting black raspberry (which would be a fall bearing crop) it wouldn't be flowering right now. They flower in late summer for a fall crop. Are you sure the part that is flowering isn't a fruiting vine off the base of the floricane? Maybe it looks like a primocane if its at the base of the floricane??? Just a thought.

If the fruiting part you think is primocane dies off after fruiting then you'll now it was actually a floricane that produced the fruit.

    Bookmark   June 16, 2009 at 3:15PM
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tyler_j(6a)

If you google explorer black raspberry (a primocane fruiting black raspberry) you will see they ripen in September and into October. Yours are flowering the same time as the floricane black raspberry which makes me think thats what it is.

    Bookmark   June 16, 2009 at 3:30PM
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glenn_russell(6b RI)

Hi Tyler - I'm not sure that ripening date is correct. I too have Jewel black raspberries in a similar growing zone. I'm not sure exactly when they ripen, but Sept/Oct doesn't sound right. I believe they ripen before my reds, but I've always had small harvests in the past (due to them being in a poor location previously). Mine now have well formed berries which makes me think that harvest shouldn't be more than a few weeks away.

Matt - Forgive me if this question is trivial. But, are you sure that it's really the primocane which has the flowers? And not the new growth (lateral) attached to a floricane? The later would be normal. And, if your bed is anything like mine, the new growth laterals are so long, and so tangled with the other canes, that it could easily be mistaken for a new lateral.

I actually wasn't aware that there was even such a thing as a primocane black raspberry until this post. The only varieties that I can find are experimental: "Explorer" and "PT-2A4". See link below.

-Glenn

Here is a link that might be useful: PT-2A4 Black Raspberry

    Bookmark   June 16, 2009 at 4:13PM
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larry_gene

I've had Jewel black raspberries for at least 10 years; some berries are just now showing red; have always been floricane fruiting; tip rooting is easily done.

    Bookmark   June 17, 2009 at 12:37AM
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alan haigh

Yes, if you have a primocane bearing mutation, which is possible, although in your zone I'd be surprised it would flower now, you can expect plants propigated from its tissue (tip layering would be fine) to sustain that mutation.

    Bookmark   June 17, 2009 at 5:09AM
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tyler_j(6a)

Hi Glenn...
No what I meant was if it was in fact a primocane fruiting black raspberry it wouldn't be flowering until late august with a Sept/Oct harvest. His is flowering now in June which means its most likely a floricane.

    Bookmark   June 17, 2009 at 7:25AM
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glenn_russell(6b RI)

Hi Tyler-
Ahhh, I see what you mean. Thx.

So Matt-
Are you still confident that it's a primocane which is fruiting? If so, get propagating!
-Glenn

    Bookmark   June 17, 2009 at 8:03AM
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matt_ohio(5b/6a)

I don't think it is anymore.

The 3-4 week delay in flowering deceived me.

I also emailed Pete Tallman(the owner of Explorer and PT-
2A4. Here is his explanation.

Hi Matt,
Dr. Jim Ballington, retired breeder at North Carolina State University, said a long time ago that Jewel is known to occasionally produce a fruiting primocane in some of the southern states. However, Jewel is a long way from being reliably primocane fruiting. I would want primocane fruiting on every healthy primocane in every year. (In 2007, I had enough heat here to poduce one fruiting primocane on Jewel, and in 2008 I had one on a MacBlack.)
It could also be that what you are seeing is a "crown lateral", which is a fruiting lateral that is originating from the crown area instead of a floricane or else very low down on a floricane. (Terminology is from H. K. Hall, a breeder in New Zealand.) A crown lateral can occur on any black raspberry variety if the floricane is mowed down or injured in the spring. The differentiation between crown lateral and fruiting primocane can be difficult with 100% certainty until the following winter, when a crown lateral dies and a primocane survives to the next spring as a floricane. I've been fooled on more than one occasion. I suppose there could be an easy way to tell in the summer, but I haven't found one yet.
Unless you are in the really deep south with a much earlier season than what I'm used to, then, based on the flowering schedule, I'm thinking that what you are seeing may well be a crown lateral. The flowering schedule for crown lateral is is several weeks later than a floricane and several weeks earlier than a primocane. My own primocane flower buds are not expected to start forming for a few more weeks.
My advice is just enjoy the berries when they come in.
This answer may be of interest to our NAFEX chat reflector. Do you mind if I publish your name with the question?
Pete Tallman
Longmont, CO zone 5 or so

    Bookmark   June 17, 2009 at 8:24AM
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glenn_russell(6b RI)

Very interesting. Thanks for sharing Matt! -Glenn

    Bookmark   June 17, 2009 at 8:46AM
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tyler_j(6a)

btw for anyone interested on Pete's website he is offering open pollinated seeds of his 'Explorer' primocane black raspberry in exchange for postage. Apparently it proved not to be self fertile and needed outside pollination but it looks like fall-bearing red raspberries will pollinate them. I'm expecting some any day now.

Here is a link that might be useful: Explorer Black Raspberry

    Bookmark   June 17, 2009 at 9:17AM
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nhardy(5b)

One of the pluses for Explorer according to the patent was smaller thorns and fewer thorns around the berries. I see that SCRI also have some thornless of black and purple raspberry varieties, if only they would sell them across the pond. I would love to try Glencoe.

    Bookmark   June 17, 2009 at 2:59PM
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jtburton

I know this is an old thread but I thought this was interesting and wanted to share. I was summer topping my Jewel black raspberries and one of the "primocanes" had a large flower cluster on it. I double-checked and it is originating from the crown. It could be the "crown lateral" mentioned above but it is about 3ft long.

    Bookmark   June 2, 2014 at 2:51PM
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jtburton

Here's another picture of it.

    Bookmark   June 2, 2014 at 2:52PM
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drew51 SE MI Z5b/6a

The floricanes are flowering now, so most likely it isn't a primocane. I do have a primocane fruiting black now Niwot, it's doing well so far. First year.In the notes about this cultivar, the first year primocanes usually fruit too late to produce, so i don't expect any berries this year.

    Bookmark   June 2, 2014 at 5:05PM
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molex

my Jewel floricanes are about 3/4 of the way done flowering, my primocanes are at about 3 1/2 feet.

    Bookmark   June 2, 2014 at 8:59PM
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tyler_j(6a)

Hey Drew...

My Niwot's are doing good too. I potted up the TC plugs in my greenhouse when I got them to let them get more established with good root growth (those plugs are small lol). They are about 6" tall now and just planted in the garden. Same with the primeark freedom :)

Tyler

    Bookmark   June 2, 2014 at 9:08PM
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drew51 SE MI Z5b/6a

Tyler,

Awesome! Hey the plants you sent are growing, they started to produce new buds. And the Wyeberry cutting I did, i thought died, as the bud died on it. Then a primocane came up next to it. It has your name on it.

jt,

Keep us updated, one never knows.
I have the cultivar Allen. And this is the first year it has floricanes. It is amazing how many berries this beast is going to produce. Like hundreds of berries. It is a super aggressive plant. It already had laterals, but even more grew. I'm going to be loaded with berries. Also it seems super early, Prelude is keeping up but all others are not as advanced. Both Allen and Prelude now have berries forming, Allen is ahead by 3 or 4 days maybe a week.
I picked my first berry today, a Mara Des Bois strawberry. So June 2, the official start of my berry harvest!! Yeah!

    Bookmark   June 2, 2014 at 9:27PM
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jtburton

My jewel black raspberries have finished up blooming, the picture above is essentially the only blooms left. This is my first fruiting year with black raspberries (jewel and mac black) and it is a "baby" crop but enough to get a good taste.

I have a lot of berry plants having their first fruiting season (2nd year) and it is really interesting to see how much larger and more robust the primocanes are this year than last year, especially on my raspberries and trailing blackberries. Fruit production on those the new primocanes next year could be 2-3x as much.

One other thing Drew51, you'd better have a decent size area for that siskiyou blackberry. I spent some time today tying up the 6ft canes (each 2nd yr siskiyou has 6 canes at 5-6ft) and it is only the beginning of June. They are growing at the same rate as my marions, which produced canes last year at my house up to 20ft. :-)

    Bookmark   June 2, 2014 at 10:15PM
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drew51 SE MI Z5b/6a

jt,

Luckily, or maybe unluckily, I lost 3 cultivars to the winter, so do have some room. The wyeberry is producing a couple primocanes only, it was a small plant when planted last year, like 3 inches! Not big enough to bend to tip root, but no doubt they will be. Thanks for the heads up!
Tyler sent me some very interesting plants, not as much for taste, but just interesting. Two white cultivars of blackberries. Both are growing. Also some seeds to a yellow black raspberry. I guess these whites are pretty wild too, as far as growth.

    Bookmark   June 2, 2014 at 11:31PM
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