KSD on lotus understock?

creekweb(6,7)July 7, 2013

I have a lotus tree that's about 10 years old that was topworked about 5 years ago with various kaki - Okame, Korean and Wase Fuyu as well as other lotus and virginiana. The Korean graft has been vigorous, well over 6 feet tall, but each year has dropped its fruit. This year, after taking off vigorously, it has died back some (while the rest of the tree is thriving) and of the many fruit set, only a few small ones remain. The Wase Fuyu, which is not supposed to be compatible with lotus has never been vigorous and this year I noticed blackening of the leaf veins, a typical but nonspecific finding in KSD.

So two thoughts: One is that this observation somewhat supports the idea that KSD may not be exclusively found with virginiana rootstock. The other is that if known incompatibility manifests with signs similar to what's observed with KSD, there's more reason to believe that the disease is based upon incompatibility rather than infection.

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Scott F Smith(6B/7A MD)

Yup, sounds like more evidence for graft incompatibility.

This year I am seeing some KSD symptoms on a Saijo I grafted to a Giombo. Several other grafts of different varieties are doing fine on the same Giombo stock, only the Saijo has symptoms. So this is yet more evidence KSD is a manifestation of graft incompatibility.

Scott

    Bookmark   July 7, 2013 at 6:39PM
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harbin_gw

I have many container grown kakis grafted on lotus. Every year I experience some die-off from the rootstock whereby the plant is lost completely. Dropping of fruit is also common with lotus as a stock. It does improve a bit with age, though. No such problems with D. virginiana.

    Bookmark   July 8, 2013 at 6:40AM
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creekweb(6,7)

Scott, why have you topworked your giombo? Did you not like this variety?

Harbin, as I understand it, you're losing the trees because the rootstock is dying. Are you seeing any signs of rejection of grafted astringent kakis on lotus where a once healthy graft declines or dies and the rootstock takes over (especially with blackening of the leaf veins.) Do you happen to have Kyung sun bansi or Rojo brilliante on lotus and if so, how have they done?

    Bookmark   July 20, 2013 at 11:49AM
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gonebananas_gw

Does anyone ever see or suspect incompatibility on D. kaki rootstock, i.e., the same species?

Are the other problems with D kaki roots (I forget them) really all that important for a home grower or hobbyist or small orchard grower?

Ultimately, why not use D. kaki?

    Bookmark   July 20, 2013 at 1:47PM
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creekweb(6,7)

I think yours is a good question/proposition especially if we assume compatibility within the species. Kaki on kaki grafting is probably the most commonly done, and I haven't heard much about incompatibility, but I wonder if a particularly amenable rootstock clone or line is most often used for this purpose. Scott's post suggests kaki/kaki incompatibility (though as an interstem) and I've also seen problems both on kaki grafts on kaki interstems and between astringent and nonastringent kakis.

The reason most commonly given for using virginiana over kaki rootstock is that it is thought to provide better cold-hardiness to the tree, but this is questionable if grafting is done low and the tree is heavily mulched. It may be that the difference in risk for cold related damage/death is more than compensated for by a lessening of risk of death from incompatibility.

    Bookmark   July 20, 2013 at 5:08PM
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Tony(Zone 5. Omaha, Nebraska)

This spring I grafted another Rossyanka on a D.Virginiana rootstock. The scion leafed out nicely for two weeks then suddenly died. I thought the rootstock also died, but a couple of weeks later it sent up some new shoots. Some how the rootstock rejected the Rossyanka scionwood. I re-grafted the same rootstock with the Nikita's Gift scionwood and it took. I am still at awe about the rootstock rejection and having to graft twice on the same rootstock.

Tony

    Bookmark   July 20, 2013 at 5:29PM
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Scott F Smith(6B/7A MD)

Creek, the Giombo never fruited after 10 years so I gave up on it. Note I was not sure it was Giombo in any case, one year it died back to near the ground. Since kaki and not virginiana leaves came up I assumed I had not lost the variety, but it could have been a seedling kaki rootstock.

I have had many rejections of persimmon grafts over the years, they will grow for a few weeks or a month and then die. One virginiana root it took me four years to get anything to stick to and its now doing some kind of dwarf growth (but its at least keeping the varieties).

Scott

    Bookmark   July 20, 2013 at 9:10PM
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harbin_gw

Creek, over the years I have not noticed any lotus/kaki graft incompatibility - speaking about astringent types. I do not grow many non astringent varieties because they taste bland to me,
only Hana Fuyu and Jiro. Hana Fuyu grows well on lotus. With Jiro I am using astringent type interstem. Works quite well. D. virginiana as a rootstock for Jiro is another possibility.
Some american persimmon varieties don't grow on lotus as a rootstock e.g. Yates, Celebrity. Others decline over the years. And some grow well. It is very much a trial and error thing.

    Bookmark   July 21, 2013 at 2:50PM
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