Yates or Prok Persimmon?

schiba(5b)September 21, 2013

If you had to choose one, which would it be? And why?

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Tony(Zone 5. Omaha, Nebraska)

Prok, larger and early ripening.

Tony

    Bookmark   September 22, 2013 at 1:19AM
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schiba(5b)

IS it true that Prok is also sweeter than yates after being exposed to a frost? Thanks!

    Bookmark   September 22, 2013 at 5:08PM
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Tony(Zone 5. Omaha, Nebraska)

They are both sweet. Yates is a little milder with an apricot flavor and a flat shape. Prok is a little juicier with a round to oval shape. I liked them both.

Tony

    Bookmark   September 22, 2013 at 7:42PM
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shane11

I cannot answer because I have never tried prok but I can tell you that yates is very good and early ripening. Mine are ripening now and will into the 1st part of October. Early golden is also very good and I like it slightly better. It is also early ripening.

    Bookmark   September 24, 2013 at 12:04PM
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jlc904

I have both but have not had any fruit yet. I bought mine from Stark Bros.

    Bookmark   October 19, 2013 at 9:23PM
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rofig(6)

Hi all!

Where I could find seeds of Prok or other D. virginiana cultivars?
I am from Europe and they are hard to find here.
Thanks!

    Bookmark   December 11, 2013 at 7:57AM
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cousinfloyd

rofig,
I asked a similar question a while ago, but I'm still looking for a European source for a grafted persimmon. I think I've decided on Yates in the meantime, mainly because I've seen different sources indicate that it fruits well in the absence of a male pollinator. (I live in the US, but I want to buy a tree as a gift for a friend in Austria.) A member here answered my earlier question on the forum, but I tried contacting him directly, but that seems not to have worked. It also appeared from his website that he only deals in wholesale. If that same member sees this, and especially if he's willing to sell and ship a single tree, I'd still love to hear from him. Rofig, if you (or anyone else) find any European sources for persimmons please share! As for seeds, why do you want seeds and not a grafted tree?

    Bookmark   December 12, 2013 at 7:11AM
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longaeva54

Cousinfloyd,if you still interested for an European source for persimmoms, delivery end of May.
Here is a link that might be useful:Persimmon Yates

    Bookmark   January 23, 2014 at 5:44AM
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cousinfloyd

Thank you!

    Bookmark   January 23, 2014 at 8:47AM
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aliciaandbilly(6)

I am also debating between these two varieties. Are their mature sizes approximately the same? The Stark Bros website lists the mature size at 35-50' wide and tall, but the Edible Landscaping website, which only sells Yates, lists its height at 20' with 15' spacing. The latter is more in line with the space I have available for a singular persimmon tree, so I'm wondering what others' experiences have been. Are these varieties difficult to maintain at a smaller size (in other words will I be fighting a losing battle trying to maintain a max height of 15' or less?)?

Also, it's my understanding that a single female tree will fruit without seeds. Has that been anyone's experience? We unfortunately just don't have the space for 2 trees.

And lastly, opinions on the best sources for purchasing? I've found Stark Bros, Edible Landscaping and Nolin Nursery thus far online. I'd be looking to ship to the NYC Metro area.

Thanks in advance for the advice!

    Bookmark   February 24, 2014 at 10:21AM
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kyyada(6B-7A)

Here is a source

http://www.nuttrees.net/

    Bookmark   February 24, 2014 at 10:45AM
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aliciaandbilly(6)

Thanks kyyada. Have you ordered from them before and were you happy with the product and service?

    Bookmark   February 24, 2014 at 11:08AM
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kyyada(6B-7A)

I talked to them over the phone, he invited me to a tour of his orchard, I plan on going after their spring rush. They sell out fast and ship alot overseas (scionwood) he said. But no, I have never ordered from them but they seem very nice and have unique stuff.

    Bookmark   February 24, 2014 at 4:20PM
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aliciaandbilly(6)

Great. Thank you very much. Does anyone have any experience regarding how large American Persimmon trees get, specifically the Prok and Yates varieties?

    Bookmark   February 26, 2014 at 9:19AM
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Tony(Zone 5. Omaha, Nebraska)

They can grow up to 30-40 feet without prunning. You can keep them down to 15-20 feet by prunning them.

Tony

    Bookmark   February 26, 2014 at 12:53PM
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aliciaandbilly(6)

Thank you so much, Tony! Where did you get your persimmon trees from and were you happy with the service and product? I remember seeing photos of your trees and they looked great!

    Bookmark   February 26, 2014 at 1:07PM
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Tony(Zone 5. Omaha, Nebraska)

You can buy it at Starkbros nursery. it is on the small size but good customer service there. They will replace your tree the following Spring if it died. You can also buy it from Cliff England at England Orchard "nuttrees.net" He is very helpful and with good customer service. You can't go wrong with these two nurseries.

Tony

    Bookmark   February 26, 2014 at 1:19PM
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RobThomas

I ordered Yates and Morris Burton from Nolin River last year. It took Yates almost until June to finally break bud, and Morris Burton never did. He is supposed to send a replacement next month. The cost is pretty comparable to England's and Mr. Brittain has always been pleasant to deal with.

    Bookmark   February 26, 2014 at 1:22PM
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aliciaandbilly(6)

Thank you both very much! I really appreciate the advice.

    Bookmark   February 26, 2014 at 1:40PM
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gregkdc

I'm going to revive this thread as I wanted to know if Prok really is self fertile?
I looked at my Saijo persimmon a little closer and found that the grafted part of the tree is dead. Now I have a little stump of American persimmon sticking out of the ground. I am thinking about buying another persimmon and Prok seems liek a good choice. There are no other persimmon trees in the area so there is no chance of it being pollinated, is this a problem?

    Bookmark   March 20, 2014 at 12:06PM
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forestandfarm

I don't believe that either variety is self-fertile. There are some reports of trees making fruit with no seeds. I've talked to some experts about this. They believe that in some cases pollen from other plants can trick a persimmon to think it has been fertilized which will then cause it to produce a fruit with no seed. This can also occur when 60 verses 90 chromosome persimmons cross pollinate.

If you only have room for a single tree, I would suggest buying a male tree. Let that tree grow to about 1" in diameter and then cut it down at chest height and bark graft a female scion from your favorite variety. After you are sure the graft has taken, select a few well spaced water sprouts below the graft and don't cull them. These will become male branches that can fertilize the rest of your tree.

    Bookmark   March 20, 2014 at 3:21PM
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harbin_gw

After few years the male branches will dry up and fall off. For the american persimmon I cannot recommend multiple variety trees. Prok will set fruit without pollination but the resulting crop may not be bountiful.

    Bookmark   March 20, 2014 at 3:40PM
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bennylafleur(6 E. Tn.)

Another point of view.

I have at least 10 Virginiana, including Yates, that have produced seedless fruit. There are no male 90 chromosome trees in my area.
I don't believe that Prok or any Virginiana will set fruit without pollination. If the flower is bagged before it opens, and nothing allowed to enter, the fruit will not set.

Benny

    Bookmark   March 20, 2014 at 11:18PM
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gregkdc

Thanks for the reply, I am trying to figure this out but as you can see from the replies there is a lot of contradicting information out there. Most experts say you need two trees for pollination while many of the nurseries list American cultivars as self fertile.

Benny;
I am assuming that the reason why you get fruit is because of the wild 60 chromosome trees in your area? In Utah there are no persimmons of any type so this wouldn't work for me.

What about Meader? I see this one coming up quite often even the university of Kentucky says it is self fruitful.
www.uky.edu/Ag/CCD/.../persimmon.pdf

Rosseyanka is a potential tree for my yard, does anybody know if it tastes good?

This is what I am looking;

-I have room for only one tree and it will double as an ornamental. It will be allowed to get as big as possible, fall colors would be a huge bonus. Trees here are naturally dwarfed by the soil and climate compared to the midwest so even though it could potentially grow to 50 ft it will probably only grow to 30.

-Obviously the tree needs to be self fruitful.

-It needs to be more cold hardy then a Kaki.

-It needs to be relatively early season compared to other persimmons.

-It needs to taste good. I tend to like stronger sweeter tasting
fruit over bland fruit while texture doesn't bother me.

I know I am probably asking for too much of a persimmon but I really like the idea of having one.
Any thoughts? Greg

    Bookmark   March 21, 2014 at 10:24AM
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bennylafleur(6 E. Tn.)

Greg, a 60 chromosome male is not necessary to produce seedless fruit from a 90 chromosome female.
Yates tastes good, is early, and will make seedless fruit.
Even earlier and seedless is H-118
I don't think either one is good for fall color

Benny

    Bookmark   March 21, 2014 at 10:53AM
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Tony(Zone 5. Omaha, Nebraska)

Greg,

I have a Rossyanka hybrid persimmon. So far it handled -19F 3 years ago and -15F this past winter with flying color. It finally produced fruits last year for me. To me, it taste pretty good if you let it wrinkle a bit. The size was a little smaller 2 1/4' than my Nikita's Gift hybrid persimmon. My Nikita;s Gift can handled the -15F this year without protection and on the south side of my house. I did wrapped it for winter protection the first two years. I really like the NG fruits. They are about 2-3" and really sweet and dark orange in color. The texture is a lot firmer than other soft Asian persimmons. Both of these hybrids are self-fertile.

Tony

    Bookmark   March 21, 2014 at 10:58AM
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creekweb(6,7)

One consideration with Rosseyanka is that it needs a long season to ripen properly - it is the last fruit of any type that I harvest in my orchard, this year it had been in January when it stays well attached to the tree, weathers the freezing temps better than any other persimmon in my collection and develops a rich sweet flavor with a pasty consistency.

    Bookmark   March 21, 2014 at 12:05PM
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gregkdc

Tony;
Did your Nikitas gift have any good fall colors? I wanted a little bigger tree but the fact that I don't intend to prune this tree might actually work in my favor. The trade off is a smaller tree but bigger fruit. -15F is about as cold as it ever gets around here so it is good to know it can take the cold.

Creek; thanks for bringing up the ripening time of
Rosseyanka, that may just be a deal breaker.

Thanks Greg

    Bookmark   March 21, 2014 at 1:30PM
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Tony(Zone 5. Omaha, Nebraska)

Greg,

NG's leaves had a nice reddish color if Omaha had a prolong fall season or an Indian summer. If frost came to town early then all green leaves dropped and all the orange fruits hung just like a Christmas's tree.

Tony

    Bookmark   March 21, 2014 at 1:52PM
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forestandfarm

Tony, you are getting me excited about that Nikita's Gift! I can't wait to bark graft the scions you sent to my native trees in May. In the mean time, I couldn't wait and actually tried bench grafting one of them to an undersized persimmon rootstock indoors. No bud break yet, but it still looks promising....

Greg, I chatted with some experts about Meader on the subject of it being self-fertile. That assumption was made because it was producing fruit in areas where there were supposed to be no nearby pollinators. I was told that like Benny reported if bagged it will not set fruit. They speculate that it may have been chestnut pollen that was tricking the tree into thinking it had been pollenated causing it to set fruit, but that was simply educated speculation as to why the trees were observed setting fruit with no nearby pollinators.

    Bookmark   March 21, 2014 at 2:33PM
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gregkdc

Thanks to everyone for helping I will replace my dead saijo with nikitas gift.

    Bookmark   March 21, 2014 at 4:52PM
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bennylafleur(6 E. Tn.)

More info

Forest, I have no idea what tricks the tree into thinking it was pollinated, however, there are no Chestnut or native persimmon in the swamps of south Louisiana where seedless fruit has been produced on 90 chromosome Virginiana

Benny

    Bookmark   March 21, 2014 at 9:09PM
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skyjs(z8 OR, USA)

Greg,
I would get a Meader. It tastes good, is hardy enough and produces fruit on its own, but probably not if you bag the fruit. (WHy would you bag the fruit?) I used to get small unseeded fruit on my Early GOlden. Yes, I have chestnuts. Now I get big seeded fruit on my Garretson, and small fruit on my Szukis, because my Szukis is now flowering.

I agree that the method described earlier of bark grafting onto the male tree could work, but I also agree not to just graft a limb because it will probably fall off. Graft the desired female variety onto the main trunk. Persimmons are slow growing so yes, you can keep them to 20 feet easily with pruning.
John S
PDX OR

    Bookmark   March 21, 2014 at 10:45PM
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forestandfarm

Benny,

I'm no expert on this by any means, but I think the physical characteristics of the agent being "close enough" to the intended pollen can cause it to set fruit thinking it was pollenated. However, if DNA of the agent is not correct you don't actually get seeds formed.

Again the agent being chestnut pollen, dust, or something else are really only informed speculation by some of the persimmon experts. I'm simply passing them on. I had the same question about Meader when I first started trying to select varieties for wildlife.

I have plenty of native persimmon in my area, so I can't speak from personal experience. One guy who has been grafting persimmon for wildlife for 30 years told me not to even worry about saving male trees for pollination. He says that if you have native persimmons growing anywhere in the area you can convert every tree to find to female. He says there are always a few trees around and with insect pollination they can be quite distant.

    Bookmark   March 21, 2014 at 11:23PM
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gregkdc

Creek; One more question
I read somewhere that Rosseyanka ripens late when grafted onto lotus root stock and in October if grafted on virginiana. Do you know if your tree is grafted on lotus?

    Bookmark   March 22, 2014 at 6:48PM
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creekweb(6,7)

My largest Rosseyanka is grafted on virginiana 90C race. In October the fruit has turned orange but still astringent and not yet soft. In January the fruit is orange and somewhat shriveled, soft, nonastringent and very tasty.

    Bookmark   March 23, 2014 at 1:22PM
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omicron

Just got burned fro Stark Brothers nursery. Sold me a Prok persimmon select tree and two weeks later told me they were sold out. Maybe should have mentioned this before I paid.... Now having a tough time finding any in stock at the other stores. Be care with these jokers.

    Bookmark   April 4, 2014 at 7:00PM
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Tony(Zone 5. Omaha, Nebraska)

Omicron,

Try England Orchard at nuttrees.net and Cliff will help you out.

Tony

    Bookmark   April 4, 2014 at 8:32PM
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gregkdc

Creek
Sorry to keep bringing this topic up but I am still vacillating on what type of persimmon tree to get. My wife wants the tree to be more of an ornamental tree, she particularly wants a larger tree and is pushing for Rosseyanka over Nikita's gift.
I would take either if they produced fruit, but I am a little confused about how you can get fruit from a tree in January? I have read that the persimmon fruit will ripen in sub freezing temps down to around the low 20's or so. For my climate that would get me to around maybe early to mid November, by the time January has come we are always down to around 0 degrees many times even lower. Could you elaborate? Also Nikita's gift should be hardy here but may be subject to damage every couple of years while Rosseyanka should never have a problem here so it would be one less thing to worry about.

    Bookmark   April 28, 2014 at 6:11PM
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Tony(Zone 5. Omaha, Nebraska)

Greg,

I would stick with Rossyanka for super winter hardy to -20F. and taste good too. Sooner or later when I am tire of protecting the rest of Kakis then I will topwork them all to Rossyanka. My kids love to eat dehydrated persimmons.

Tony

Here is a link that might be useful: Rossyanka Hybrid persimmon

    Bookmark   April 28, 2014 at 8:04PM
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creekweb(6,7)

My earlier post on this subject was somewhat misleading regarding the ripening of Rosseyanka. My January Rosseyankas aren't ripening in the usual sense of the word; a better account is that the weather brings on desired changes in the fruit's flavors and texture through freeze and thaw cycles. A few varieties of persimmons improve with this kind of exposure - Rosseyanka more so than any other IMO. "Ripe" around Christmas time some years, they're the closest thing I have to sugar plums. But I rely on these winter Rosseyankas because my season just isn't long enough to ripen them in the conventional sense. At the end of my growing season the fruit is not yet fit for fresh eating - I would guess that the same would be true for yours.
As far as hardiness goes, My Rosseyankas and Nikita Gift both survived temps of -11F without dieback this past winter.

    Bookmark   April 29, 2014 at 2:25AM
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cousinfloyd

Creek, is there a low temperature that ruins the fruit (or reduces fruit quality)? Or are the rosseyanka fruits so wrinkled and concentrated at that point that they wouldn't taste any different coming out of a deep freezer? I tasted some in mid-December at Edible Landscaping Nursery in northern Virginia that were terrific.

    Bookmark   April 29, 2014 at 10:04AM
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creekweb(6,7)

A good question as it brings up the possibility of storing frozen Rosseyanka persimmons in the freezer for later consumption. Other persimmons can be frozen for later use in recipes, but when defrosted are very mushy and nothing like the fresh fruit. Perhaps Rosseyanka from the freezer is identical to Rosseyanka from the winter garden. Something to look into later this year.

    Bookmark   April 29, 2014 at 4:14PM
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