'Copper Sulphate'

kokos(6a)November 9, 2010

I know the whole copper issue has been played and replayed on this forum. I'm just curious to know what difference is there between a "Kocide" type of copper and "Copper Sulphate"?

"Kocide" is a registered pesticide in my province and "Copper Sulphate" is available at local garden centres in 1 kg bags.

Can you harm a Fruit tree with "copper Sulphate" if it is dormant by doing a spray?

is it an inferior product for pest control against some of the other Copper based sprays?

Does it burn vegetation?

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sergnic(z9 Italy)

I'm aswering from Italy.
Kocide is a fungicide made from copper idroxide, that is a bit les active than sulphate (as matter), Kocide is prepared in hydrodespersible granules, that (I suppose) have added special adhesive matter, being for so more persistant and active in time, (is declared by productor that "is necessary less copper" and this mean that if less copper have the same effect, .... is being is conderved on the tree).

Copper sulphate (instead) is normally neutralized by common lime powder: in weight 0,6 lime per 1 of sulphate, lime is neutralizer and adhesive. Preparation in water need few hours in infusion, being necessary complete dilution of copper and lime,(have to mixed).

Copper is toxic (burnt) leaves of quite all fruit tree, except some (some apples..), and is not toxic for european grape vines, were is instead absolutely necessary for prevent its Philloxera disease, of course in controlled quantity.

You can see difference in costs.

Except said cases (admitted on leaves) copper treatment are used mainly only for winter treatments on wood.

Both treatment are "low impact" and analogous in effect, but accumulation of the copper in the ground, year after year in large amounts, can pollute groundwater.

    Bookmark   November 10, 2010 at 6:50AM
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sergnic(z9 Italy)

"Copper is toxic (burnt)..." is considered for any type of product.

    Bookmark   November 10, 2010 at 6:56AM
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Scott F Smith(6B/7A MD)

sergnic makes the most important point, you can use less copper with Kocide which is good since it builds up in the soil over time. Also plants are less sensitive to Kocide since its pure copper, no sulphur. If you look at the disease effectiveness ratings Kocide often beats copper sulphate as well. If you get Kocide get Kocide 3000, something like half as much product per acre needs to be applied than the other Kocides so even though it costs more its a better deal.

Scott

    Bookmark   November 10, 2010 at 7:23AM
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kokos(6a)

I would be applying this to Dormant Peach, Pear, & Apple trees. Where do I find this lime to dilute the copper sulphate with?

The bag that had the Copper sulphate said "poison". I never remember Copper Sulphate being classed as a poison.
I know Kocide is better than copper sulphate but I would have to purchase a big bag of Kocide that is $200.00 and it will take 10 years + for me to consume all this. I only need a small amount...so I guess copper sulphate must do.
Copper sulphate still kills diseases doesn't it?

    Bookmark   November 10, 2010 at 2:45PM
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sergnic(z9 Italy)

Of course, the simple cost per pound is not correct, you must consider the cost of treatment per acre. the way forward is to adhere better the copper (less in quantity) to have more persistence, and less pollution.

    Bookmark   November 10, 2010 at 3:00PM
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olpea(zone 6 KS)

I'm not sure where you're buying KOCIDE 3000. I bought 3 bags last year and I'm thinking they were around $35 per bag.

    Bookmark   November 10, 2010 at 6:29PM
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kokos(6a)

Would love to know where to get this at that price. Supplier here in Ontario won't sell it to non farmers and the ones that do sell it for $181.00 plus tax which is about $200.00
for the smallest size available. Everything in Canada costs more....I need to find a new place to live.

I read on a website it should be 2 parts Lime and 1 Part Copper Sulphate. So where does one find Lime to mix this Copper Sulphate?

    Bookmark   November 10, 2010 at 7:03PM
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sergnic(z9 Italy)

Prices in Italy: large crystals of copper sulphate, 5 kg (about 10 lbs) (must be taken to in water for three hours because it melts, with lime powder) 1.20 Euro per kg, about US $ 0.90 a lb.
Sulfate ground up, and in smaller pachage costs 20-40% more.

The lime powder in Italy is material for building (shops of cements, sands, masonry) cost a few cents (lime powder) a lb.
The correct ratio is 0.6 lime powder to 1 of copper sulphate (by weight).
Please note: different rate affects heavily the action fungicides of the mix.

The lime powder in Italy is material for building (shops of cements, sands, masonry) cost a few cents (lime powder) a lb.
The correct ratio is 0.6 lime powder to 1 of copper sulphate (by weight).
Please note: different rate affects heavily the action fungicide of the mix.

The products that are exclusively sold only to professional growers are those only severely toxic, so the sale is contingent upon registration and submission of documents enabling.
Products made of copper, (as those), used properly, are not considered toxic (they are also allowed in organic farming in Europe), it is generally expected that the spraying should not impact on fish farms. The purchase is open to all.

    Bookmark   November 11, 2010 at 11:18AM
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sergnic(z9 Italy)

Kocide costs more, but it is more efficient in action, and practical.
Active material is alway copper (copper idroxide).

    Bookmark   November 11, 2010 at 11:44AM
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sergnic(z9 Italy)

I correct myself, disease cured by copper is PERONOSPORA, and other fungus diseases.
Sorry!
SergNic

    Bookmark   November 11, 2010 at 11:47AM
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olpea(zone 6 KS)

I Googled KOCIDE 3000 and w/o really looking for a cheap price, the first Website I came across sells a 4 lb bag for $60, which is about twice the price it should be, but still a whole lot cheaper than $200.

http://www.groworganic.com/kocide-3000-4-lb-bag.html

The next Site sells a 10 lb. bag for $110.

http://rosecare1.stores.yahoo.net/pek12.html

Don't know if either of these merchants ship to Canada, but w/ a little research you may be able to find some business that would ship KOCIDE to Canada.

    Bookmark   November 11, 2010 at 1:01PM
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tgary(5)

Kocide 3000
This is what I found concerning the price and quantity of Kocide 3000.
Parsons Pest Control (2 lb. bag $26) ( 4 lb. bag $41)( 10 lb. bag $105)
7 SpringsFarm (10 lb. bag $95)
Saveonchemicals (4 lb. bag $39)
JohnnySeeds ( 4lb. bag $60)(10 lb. bag $110) JohnnySeeds had a notation that they could't ship this product to Canada.

    Bookmark   November 11, 2010 at 5:21PM
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kokos(6a)

I'll check some of these sources out, worst come to worst you order and pick up over the border

    Bookmark   November 12, 2010 at 10:40AM
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iammarcus(6)

The label on Kocide 3000 assumes 100 gal water/acre for some fruits and vegetables, but not all. Kiwi it assumes 200 gal water/acre and banana has two dilutions listed.
Kocide is 46.1% Cu hydroxide, 53.9% inert; a competing product "Champ WG" is 77% Cu hydroxide and on a per pound basis about half the cost.
Dan

    Bookmark   November 13, 2010 at 6:52PM
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kokos(6a)

So should I use the copper sulphate on the dormant trees now that there is no foliage if I can;t find the lime to mix with it?
Will the copper sulphate on its own burn the wood of the trees or something?

    Bookmark   November 17, 2010 at 11:44PM
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Scott F Smith(6B/7A MD)

Dan, Kocide 3000 is much more effective per pound so I wouldn't go by the per pound price but the per acre price. And, copper is toxic long-term so its a really good idea to put down as little copper as possible. One other thing, in dormant copper I would use a serious sticker to keep the stuff on the trees as long as possible. Bordeaux sticks really well but when I use Kocide I put in a large quantity of nufilm 17 (pine tar) to keep the copper on (say 1 tsp/gallon). My trees are blue months later meaning the copper is still at work.

Scott

    Bookmark   November 18, 2010 at 10:14AM
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iammarcus(6)

Scott Thanks for the information, I'll have to shop for the Bordeaux and nufilm 17.
Dan

    Bookmark   November 22, 2010 at 1:37AM
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glenn_russell(6b RI)

Hi Scott-
I just use horticultural oil as my sticker, but I suspect it doesn't work as well as your nufilm 17. When I searched for it online, I only saw it available in gallon sizes for over $50. Did you find it anywhere in smaller quantities? for cheaper? Thanks,
-Glenn

    Bookmark   November 22, 2010 at 12:17PM
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Scott F Smith(6B/7A MD)

Hi Glenn, I have never seen it in less than one gallon. I bought mine five years ago and am most of the way through my gallon by now. Orchard Valley used to have a good price on it.

Scott

    Bookmark   November 23, 2010 at 8:37AM
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glenn_russell(6b RI)

Thanks Scott. -Glenn

    Bookmark   November 23, 2010 at 1:04PM
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