Looks like Pat was right

glib(5.5)March 1, 2014

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24521561

We are interested in Organic gardening primarily to maintain he health of the planet, and secondarily our ow health. Pnbrown posted some time ago how despicable modern wheat is, and the proof is in the paper above, published 2 weeks ago. (Brief summary: subjects with some irritable bowel syndrome were fed identical diets, one with regular wheat for bread and pasta, the other with heirloom wheat. Heirloom subjects had better guts, better defecation, and lower blood inflammatory markers).

Note that a diseased gut is at the base of all inflammation and thought to be a major factor in all diseases of civilization. This is interesting because alternative theories posited that modern mills produce hyperfine flour, and that bigger flour grains in the past were carrying protective granules of resistant starch to the lower gut. It seems that hyperfine flour is, at most, a minor problem.

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Natures_Nature(5 OH)

I am a believer in heirloom and old school nutrition.

Raw grain, being complex carbs, are difficult to digest and absorb the nutrients we need. If you sprout that same grain, it turns those stored nutrients into readily available nutrients. That's why I try to stick away from grains in general, not getting into all the processing and crap that goes into grain products, most people probably are not buying raw grain like kashi or something, most are buying grains in the form of junkfood,breads, pastas, flours,etc. I believe we eat far too much grain...

    Bookmark   March 1, 2014 at 6:01PM
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Natures_Nature(5 OH)

Pat's a smart man!

    Bookmark   March 1, 2014 at 6:04PM
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ericwi

I developed a sensitivity to wheat, or wheat gluten, back around year 2000. Never had a problem with it before then, and I know of no one in my family who had issues like that during my youth. Today I am gluten free, and that makes the allergy symptoms go away, but it takes considerable effort, and some extra expense.

    Bookmark   March 1, 2014 at 6:22PM
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glib(5.5)

It seems to me that round 1960 we gave up thousands of years of careful grain variety optimization, and the whole world went with the new hybrids. It was not all bad, before wheat was a much taller plant, and therefore prone to laying down in windy or wet conditions, complicating harvest. The new hybrids also produce more grain per unit of water and fertilizer. But the selection of strains easier on the human system was lost.

    Bookmark   March 1, 2014 at 9:01PM
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glib(5.5)

I tend to be wheat free too, but there will be exceptions, mostly in social situations. I don't see the extra expense since we cook everything from scratch anyway, and a large pot of rice is not particularly more expensive (and certainly less work) than a loaf of bread.

    Bookmark   March 1, 2014 at 9:04PM
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pnbrown

Glib, I think it was that study that I heard about earlier.

Coincidentally we went off wheat entirely a few weeks ago, as part of a detoxification strategy (turns out we are both infected with tick-borne diseases, hardly surprising given where we have lived for many years). Also leaving off corn for the time being. I have noticed so far that I feel less "heavy", though that might just be a result of eating less overall.

I'm still of the opinion that wheat sprouted and mashed, then cooked as flatbread or gruel, wouldn't be much of a digestion problem for anyone. For vegetarians like us, getting enough protein is an issue, and wheat has far more protein than rice or millet, or corn for that matter. However, I'm confident that those latter grains combined with a legume as is traditional in so many cultures is quite sufficient.

    Bookmark   March 2, 2014 at 6:25AM
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art_1(10 CA)

Are heirloom wheat products readily available? Any known brands? I try to buy some sprouted things but I am not sure about the cultivars used.

    Bookmark   March 2, 2014 at 12:32PM
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nc_crn

Kamut wheat/Khorasan wheat would be what you're looking for.

Bob's Red Mill sells it as far as widely available goes,but they sell it whole grain last I saw.

    Bookmark   March 2, 2014 at 12:55PM
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art_1(10 CA)

Thank you. Usually smaller packages, higher prices but I guess that's to be expected.

    Bookmark   March 2, 2014 at 1:33PM
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glib(5.5)

Pat suggested fife red wheat for heirloom wheat. I met someone who buys from the Amish, and she says that the Amish wheat does not irritate her gut. Agree that fermented grains will always be better, but it is difficult - it is just completely out of our traditions. When, due to social events, we make bread we always rise it for 24+ hours, and that bread is in fact much lighter, but not good enough. In practice, what used to be wheat in our household is now potatoes, squash, root vegetables, natto, rice, cornmeal, and increased fats.

    Bookmark   March 2, 2014 at 3:01PM
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Natures_Nature(5 OH)

Save your money guys, no specialty variety of wheat is going help you. Wheat is wheat. I highly recommend stop eating all grain.

    Bookmark   March 3, 2014 at 5:45PM
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glib(5.5)

All grains? the most long-lived cultures in the world, all of them, eat grains. Yes, in moderation.

    Bookmark   March 3, 2014 at 5:56PM
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Natures_Nature(5 OH)

"getting enough protein is an issue, and wheat has far more protein than rice or millet, or corn for that matter. However, I'm confident that those latter grains combined with a legume as is traditional in so many cultures is quite sufficient."

Plants, green leafy plants in particular, are filled with amino acids, the building blocks of protein. I personally think this calorie counting stuff, and every branch off(heavy consumption of protein being one) is ridiculous. A lot of days, i dont eat more than 500 calories, some days I don't eat at all. But i wake up earlier, feel better, i could think clearer. I just lesson to my body, not a chart, or what some study reveals you should eat. Instead of lessoning to something else, i lesson to my body. It's actually quite simple. If im not hungry i don't eat. Lesson to your body. But it's also important to note if your body is craving bread, or other junk food, it is most likely candida, parasites, etc.

Pat, who informed you on this tick disease? What exactly does your "detox" entail?

    Bookmark   March 3, 2014 at 6:02PM
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pnbrown

Nature, I think you are uninformed regarding the history of wheat culture. The genetic change in commercial wheats over the past 150 years is immense, as compared to the many centuries before during which certain populations gained their adaptations to eating it as a staple.

I have lived in an epicenter of Lyme's and other tick-borne diseases for many years and been very active outdoors in prime habitat and have not been very careful in checking for ticks/tick bites. So it is not only merely plausible that I am infected but it would be rather remarkable if I was not. I was diagnosed by naturopathy. In a few months depending on how I feel I may get blood tests.

    Bookmark   March 4, 2014 at 8:01AM
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nandina(8b)

An organic off-topic suggestion re Lyme disease and perhaps some might want to consider other thoughts presented as they study. Do some serious researching on the topic....curing Lyme disease + colostrum. Might be helpful and worth considering.

    Bookmark   March 4, 2014 at 10:02AM
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wayne_5 zone 6a Central Indiana

Dr. Stephen Sinatra is a cardioligist who lives in Lyme, Connecticut. He recommended that if a person has a tick bite that stays red, to get the recommended antibiotic without delay....and this is from an alternative doctor!!!!!

    Bookmark   March 4, 2014 at 11:31AM
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nandina(8b)

Wayne, I absolutely agree with you, antibiotic treatment for Lyme disease upon diagnosis. No dispute there. It is the lingering problems which can last for years where you will find colostrum discussions.

    Bookmark   March 4, 2014 at 3:45PM
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pnbrown

Sure, a fresh bite is a no-brainer. Anybody who lives in the northeast knows that by now. The problem is chronic infection long after an un-noticed bite (or bites, as probably in my case). Because all the symptoms of the various tick-borne diseases are shared with other problems: flu, arthritis, sports or work injury, the list is endless.

    Bookmark   March 4, 2014 at 6:15PM
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glib(5.5)

To keep with this, a friend of mine with some of these problems (inflammation to various joints and spine disks, as well as other problems) gave up wheat on my advice and at 58 she feels great. The problems disappeared over the course of six months, about two years ago. My mother, too, seems to have arthritic knees and I am pushing for her to drop the pasta. That is a tough fight.

    Bookmark   March 4, 2014 at 6:21PM
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pnbrown

Also, regarding the massive doses of antibiotics that are standard treatment for chronic cases of tick diseases, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense where some of the infectious agents are viral. I know lots of people who have been on the 3 or 6 month regimes of powerful antibiotics without any change in symptoms, multiple times.

    Bookmark   March 5, 2014 at 7:13AM
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david52_gw

For what its worth, there is a herbal extract from the Amazon jungle in Peru that has been found by some to be highly effective in treating long-term lyme disease and associated viral infections.

I'd google it for all the conflicting information. I tried it several years ago and have found that it knocks out colds and flu very quickly, and my family, highly suspicious at first, have come around to using it as well.

/just passing info, not selling snake oil.

Here is a link that might be useful: where I buy it

    Bookmark   March 8, 2014 at 3:37PM
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wayne_5 zone 6a Central Indiana

Lyme disease is caused by a bacteria which is treatable with antibiotics. Deep and long embedded cases are more difficult.

Viruses are something else.

    Bookmark   March 8, 2014 at 5:20PM
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pnbrown

Wayne, ticks carry various viruses. My wife is infected with tick-borne encephalitis, for example (if she went to a typical allopathic doctor most likely she would be put on a long dose of heavy duty antibiotic). Also, it's known now that what has been lumped under the heading of "Lyme" is many different infectious agents.

I was somewhat skeptical about the whole Lyme/tick disease thing, until the last two months which have been quite onerous. I'm a believer now.

    Bookmark   March 9, 2014 at 8:35PM
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