Quality of this Phal violacea?

whitecat8(z4 MN)October 4, 2010

Contemplating a trade and wanted to see if it's even more mundane than I think. Anyone have a clue? Thanks

It's P violacea (violacea var. borneo x violacea var borneo 'Pacific Isle'). Hausermann's had it for $25 recently. Picture from their site.

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highjack(z6 KY)

I guess as a violacea it is mundane but as a Phal bellina it is very attractive. Is that the picture of the plant for trade? The shape and color are excellent.

Phal violacea var. Borneo was given it's own species status in the early 90's.

Brooke

    Bookmark   October 4, 2010 at 6:27AM
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whitecat8(z4 MN)

Thanks for the info, Brooke.

Are you saying it's a bellina? If so, does Hausermann's have the name wrong?

    Bookmark   October 4, 2010 at 8:39AM
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highjack(z6 KY)

Yes it is a bellina and yes Hausermann continues to use an incorrect name.

Google violacea and bellina - the bellina has the distinct triangle of color, the violacea is a solid color.

There is also a primary hybrid between the two named Samera. It has the triangle of color but the color isn't as defined and "bleeds" onto more of the petals and sepals.

I have pictures of all three if you want pictures.

Brooke

    Bookmark   October 4, 2010 at 9:55AM
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whitecat8(z4 MN)

Yes, pix would be nice. Thank you.

It's the plant for trade. It was an impulse buy as I was ordering what I meant to buy - Phal Cranberry Queen 'Regal' (Phal. venosa x Phal. Cherokee Chief).

Do you happen to know the cross for this bellina? Also, some info indicates they're more difficult than the violacea. Any thoughts on that, one way or the other?

Thanks, WC8

Here's the Cranberry Queen 'Regal.' The combo of color and shape - ahhhh.

From Hausermann's catalog

    Bookmark   October 4, 2010 at 1:18PM
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smwboxer

It's a nice bellina of the wild type. As far as quality, that's subjective.

    Bookmark   October 4, 2010 at 2:31PM
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highjack(z6 KY)

Here are the Phal. violaceas I have in three different colors - blue, white and magenta - I do not have the lighter magenta version.

The magenta violaceas I grew from a compot, the white form I purchased from Big Leaf and the blues I grew from a compot. Both compots originated from the Nortons.

Two of the bellinas were purchased from Big Leaf and the third from Normans.

Here are examples of the Samera which shows the influence of the bellina but the triangle marking bleeds into the sepals/petals.

I purchased these in a compot from Nortons and the cross was made with a blue violacea and a bellina coerulea.

I couldn't find my other Samera picture purchased from Hausermann many years ago as Phal. violacea x violacea var. Borneo. This is when I learned the var. Borneo had been given it's own species designation of Bellina.

The designation in your cross only identifies which bellina was used and the name has no official recognition by the AOS. It is bellina x bellina so yours is Phal. bellina.

I grow my bellinas right in the middle of my other Phals. I don't find them any different from the rest of them.

Brooke

    Bookmark   October 4, 2010 at 2:51PM
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stitzelweller(Md)

'Yes it is a bellina and yes Hausermann continues to use an incorrect name.

Brooke, I thought that 'bellina' / 'violacea' are synonyms for the flowers in the fotos ?

Am I incorrect?

I understand that 'bellina' is the "accepted" name for the pictured flower. Synonym implies that the other name is also "accepted", yes/no?

--Stitz--

    Bookmark   October 4, 2010 at 4:17PM
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sambac(z10fl)

Wc8 and Brooke, nice phalies. Love the blue violacea. Brooke, is one 'finnickier' than the other? WC8, let me know if you decided to trade out I may give it a shot..again...

    Bookmark   October 6, 2010 at 6:26AM
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cjwatson(Z8 FL)

As for Hausermann, they sell Epidendrum nemorale. This species was switched over Encyclia 40 years ago, and then to Enc. adenocaula way back. Why they still keep the old obsolete name, I can't fathom. Yes, it had been the correct name way back then, but is not used any longer except by the very, very few.

Phal bellina was separated out from violacea into its own species, and the violacea name is now obsolete among most growers for this particular orchid although it was once valid. 'Synonym' is a stretch here.

A different example is that of genus Dockrillia, which was separated out from Dendrobium a while back. However, there has always been a dispute whether it should have been done, and therefore probably half of the orchid community still considers the genus to be Dendrobium. That is a definite case of a 'synonym' rather than someone just randomly choosing to use an older name rather than update.

I have noticed in the past that an occasional vendor (not talking about Hausermann) will deliberately use an old, obsolete name in order for the plant they are selling to garner an impression of being a 'rare' and uncommon orchid whereas it's common as dirt under the current name.

I'm still on my first cup of coffee. If none of this makes sense, we'll try again later.

    Bookmark   October 6, 2010 at 9:59AM
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highjack(z6 KY)

Made perfect sense to me CJ!

Sambac the bellina is no harder than any other phal. If you grow it outside, it will appreciate coming inside if the night temps go below 60. They prefer a higher temp but I refuse to use more propane to up the temps for them. I'm sure they could even go to 55.

    Bookmark   October 6, 2010 at 11:27AM
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cjwatson(Z8 FL)

A somewhat sad tale. I got a Phal bellina over a year ago from Dowery Orchids; a gorgeous plant with lots of spikes which bloomed throughout the last summer. Like most species Phals, these plants will rebloom over and over year after year from the same spikes while putting out new ones as well.

To make a short story long, I was calibrating the heaters in the GH last winter and went to bed thinking that all was well. By the time the temperature alarm went off, the GH was down in the upper 40s. Those much-wanted spikes died within a few weeks of this happening. I effectively lost much of my plants floriferousness this summer due to the loss of the spikes, although the plant did put out a new one to bloom on. I would have had four spikes in bloom rather than only one.

The moral of the story is that Phal bellina is quite sensitive to cold. There are many species Phals that temps in the 40s wouldn't do damage to. This is not one of them. I have resolved to keep this species at 60F+ from now on.

WC, that is a nice bellina in the photo. Not being into judging, I can't say if it is better than other bellinas. But every one I have seen almost without exception is strikingly beautiful and wonderfull fragrant. They don't require strong light.

    Bookmark   October 6, 2010 at 1:38PM
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stitzelweller(Md)

"Phal bellina was separated out from violacea into its own species, and the violacea name is now obsolete among most growers for this particular orchid although it was once valid. 'Synonym' is a stretch here."

CJ, thank you. I am aware of the basic history re: the creation of bellina. Yes, I agree that the violacea var Borneo name is obsolete. Does that make it not a synonym?

Alex/OrchidWiz is certainly not the source authority however, I use his Encyclopedia frequently. In the section listing 'names', you will note the following:

Synonyms, Subspecies, Varieties, Forms and Other Names Found.

--Stitz--

    Bookmark   October 6, 2010 at 7:54PM
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cjwatson(Z8 FL)

For practical use purposes, violacea is no longer valid for bellina. If you go to Jay's site, you will see synonyms listed for most orchid species that haven't been used since the 1800s. Surely we wouldn't be using one of those ancient synonyms as a valid current name although they are still listed as 'synonyms.'

Getting away from the plant world, I would not consider Idlewild Airport as a current synonym for JFK Airport. While it is technically still a synonym since that was what it was called several decades ago when I was a kid, it is certainly would confusing today if you want to buy a plane ticket to NY in Athens, Greece -- even though it is an old synonym. It would no longer be clear at most airline ticket counters, especially away from the NYC area irregardless if it is a synonym.

That's the point when it comes to obsolete names. When someone says Phal 'violacea,' I see in my mind a violacea rather than a bellina. Times change, same as with the airport. The object is for everyone to try to be on the same wavelength to avoid confusion.

    Bookmark   October 6, 2010 at 8:21PM
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stitzelweller(Md)

thank you, CJ.

"obsolete", I understand; "incorrect", seems to be an inappropriate word.

I welcome further comment.

--Stitz--

    Bookmark   October 7, 2010 at 7:48PM
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penfold2(4b, MN)

Obsolete = incorrect.

A species can have only one valid name, which is the earliest recorded name that accurately refers to that species only. If a species name becomes obsolete for whatever reason, then either the next earliest recorded name, or a new name, is assigned.

Keeping a list of synonyms is useful for dealing with outdated publications and so forth, but to continue to consider all synonyms as valid names would make an already messy business even worse.

    Bookmark   October 7, 2010 at 8:45PM
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stitzelweller(Md)

penfold2,

Will you please quote your reference?
Thank you,

--Stitz--

    Bookmark   October 7, 2010 at 9:09PM
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penfold2(4b, MN)

I wasn't referencing anything, just describing the typical process of nomenclature. Though I probably did misspeak somewhat. When I said there is only one valid name for any given species, I should have said there is usually one name considered to be the best match based on current taxonomy and nomenclature.

Taxonomy is an imperfect science, but our goal should be to use the most current names at all times, and leave synonyms for referencing old literature or unknowing individuals. No need to add to the confusion if we can help it.

    Bookmark   October 8, 2010 at 1:18AM
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westoh Z6

CJ,

I think you and I got the same plants from Dowery, I got my bellina from them in late August or early September of 2009 (along with 3 other very nice phal species). Amazing plant, newest leaves the size of small dinner plates and about as round. Mine has 5 spikes, 3 of which are currently blooming, nanner-nanner-nanner :-) I lost 2 spikes last winter and one earlier this summer?, but it regrew 4 more this spring and summer, Funny because I just about burnt it up by mistakenly leaving it in direct sun one day for 1+ hours, 2 leaves developed huge burn holes and now those 2 leaves are kind of donut-looking, but it didn't seem to be phased by it? And what a smell!!!

I like it...

Bob

    Bookmark   October 8, 2010 at 6:55AM
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whitecat8(z4 MN)

Stitz, check out the bellina synonyms vs the violacea. Interesting.

PHAL BELLINA

Common Name The Beautiful Phalaenopsis
Photo by Allen Black

Flower Size 2" [5 cm]

This species is a small sized, hot growing, pendant growing epiphyte from Malaysia and Borneo in shady, humid, lowland and swampy riverine forests low down on trees often near or on branches overhanging stream banks at elevations of sealevel to 200 meters with an erect to ascending, short stem completely enveloped by persistant leaf-bearing sheaths and carrying pendulous, broad, rounded, light green leaves that blooms in the summer and fall on a suberect or arcuate, 2 3/4" [7 cm] long, racemose or paniculate, few flowered inflorescence with a flattened, fractiflex rachis and small ovate bracts and has only 2 to 3, highly fragrant flowers open at a time. The inflorescence on older plants can rebloom year after year so do not cut off green viable inflorescence.

Synonyms Phalaenopsis bellina f. bowringiana (Rchb.f.) Christenson 1995; Phalaenopsis bellina f. murtoniana (Rchb.f.) Christenson 1995; Phalaenopsis bellina f. punctata (Rchb.f.) Christenson 1995; Phalaenopsis violacea var bellina Rchb.f 1884; Phalaenopsis violacea var chloracea Rchb.f 1884; Phalaenopsis violacea Borneo Variety; Phalaenopsis violacea var. bowringiana Rchb.f. 1884; Phalaenopsis violacea var. murtoniana Rchb.f. 1878; Phalaenopsis violacea var. punctata Rchb.f. 1884

PHAL VIOLACEA

Common Name The Violet Phalaenopsis
Oak Hill’s shot is of P violacae, var. Sumatra

Flower Size 1.4" [3.5 cm]

Found in the Malaya peninsula and the Island of Sumatra at elevations around 150 meters as a warm growing, pendulous epiphyte with a very short stem carrying 3 to 4, elliptical, obtuse, undulate gradually narrowing below into the basally clasping leaves that varies from the Borneo variety by being smaller leafed and with smaller flowers, as well as being easier to cross breed but the results are not as good as with the reluctant breeder from Borneo. It has extremely fragrant flowers that are borne one by one in succession on a pendant, stout, jointed, fractiflex, 4 to 5 " [10 to 12.5 cm] long inflorescence with a flattened, zigzag rachis with several [2 to 7], successive flowers with 2 to 3 open at any one time and occuring in the spring and they are used to give fragrance in the hybridizing of Phalaeenopsis. This species requires deep shade and high humidity as well as being watered regularly and should never be allowed to dry out completely.

Synonyms Phalaenopsis violacea f. coerulea Christenson 2001; Phalaenopsis violacea f. alba (Teijsm. & Binn.) Christenson 2001; Phalaenopsis violacea var. alba Teijsm. & Binn. 1862 ; Polychilos violacea (hort. ex H. Witte) Shim 1982; Stauritis violacea [Witte] Rchb.f 1862; Stauropsis violacea Rchb. f. 1862;

http://www.orchidspecies.com/phalviolaceavarsumatra.htm

Here is a link that might be useful: Phal bellina, Jay's

    Bookmark   October 8, 2010 at 8:22AM
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cjwatson(Z8 FL)

As for the old synonyms and name changes, nobody calls Phal violacea a Stauritis violacea or Polychilios violacea anymore. They may be synonyms, but they are no longer the correct name.

Basically the same with the bellina; it has not been considered a violacea since 1995. It was renamed bellina from its 1884 varietal name. That some people continue to call it a violacea is their own choice, just like some New Yorkers still call JFK Airport: Idlewild Airport. Old habits die hard.

But the whole point of nomenclature is to have everyone singing on the same key. Calling a bellina a violacea is unnecessarily confusing as well as incorrect.

    Bookmark   October 8, 2010 at 9:11AM
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whitecat8(z4 MN)

CJ, I share your point of view. It's interesting to me that P violacea has always been "violacea," even when it was known as something other than a Phal.

Bellina, on the other hand, has always been called a Phal, and not until 1995 did "bellina" become the rest of the name.

Excuse my lack of info, but in 1884, it looks like Reichenbach was calling the (now) bellina 5 different names. Or, do his name and the dates for the bellina synonyms mean something else?

    Bookmark   October 8, 2010 at 12:54PM
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stitzelweller(Md)

"Calling a bellina a violacea is unnecessarily confusing as well as incorrect."

I agree! If one insists on referencing a Phal bellina as a violacea, the varietal name of Borneo must be added.

Since we are on the topic of "proper" references, why is it the no one uses italic references to species names?

--Stitz--

    Bookmark   October 8, 2010 at 7:52PM
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cjwatson(Z8 FL)

Since we are on the topic of "proper" references, why is it the no one uses italic references to species names?

Lazy. I am here to enjoy my hobby, not turn it into extra work (grin).

WC, Phal bellina was 'discovered' in 1995 hidden away in a species it did not belong in. That is why the name starts then, along with all the varieties associated with it. While species can be synonymous in transition (e.g. Dockrillia/Dendrobium), 'varieties' are not synonyms to each other, nor are 'clones.' A variety (and a clone) is unique to itself.

    Bookmark   October 8, 2010 at 8:43PM
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whitecat8(z4 MN)

Thanks CJ

    Bookmark   October 9, 2010 at 8:53AM
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