What old rose might this be?

tuderte(USDA 9a equiv.)April 9, 2014

A little background - in October 2012 I took some cuttings from a very old rose at my local cemetery. Two of the cuttings were successful and so last July (mid-Summer) I planted them both in the same hole because they weren't particularly large and I thought that the two of them might grow into a reasonably-sized rose bush.

The 'reasonably-sized rose bush' is now just under 1 metre in height with a similar diameter. It is smothered in buds and blooms and appears healthy (apart from a touch of powdery mildew). I think it may be an old tea rose but I really have no idea. I've put a folder of recent photos on Dropbox and am trying to work out whether this link might work -

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/3ddrotxtu8gd6dv/sNh_XYq2K5

I apologise in advance if the link doesn't work - I've not tried to do this before - fingers crossed

Tricia

PS I just copied and pasted the link above into my browser and it worked - hopefully, it will work for anyone interested in seeing this beautiful rose!

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nikthegreek(9b/10a E of Athens)

Hi Tricia,
Knowing where you are located, may help experts in identifying this, apparent, tea. Is it Italy?
Nik

    Bookmark   April 9, 2014 at 10:55AM
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tuderte(USDA 9a equiv.)

Hi Nik,
Thanks for your reply - yes I'm in Italy, near Todi in the Province of Perugia, Regione Umbria. There are lots of old roses (some quite gigantic) in the 'old cemetery' here. I've only been here for a few years and started my garden from scratch in May 2012.

Initially I planted mainly David Austin roses but I'm very much drawn to these old roses that seem to survive (and thrive) on neglect.

Please let me know what other information I can supply that might make identification easier.

Tricia

    Bookmark   April 9, 2014 at 1:11PM
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jacqueline9CA

wow - What a gorgeous rose! It looks like a tea rose to me, too. Are there any hips left on it from last year? If you could post close up photos of the hips, leaves, and prickles, that would make it easier to get it identified. Also a photo showing the entire bush(es) would be good.

Jackie

    Bookmark   April 9, 2014 at 1:23PM
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tuderte(USDA 9a equiv.)

Hi Jackie,

I just went out to see if I could get a decent photo of the leaves and prickles but it's 7.45pm here now and quite windy so I didn't really have any luck. If it's of any use here is a photo of a stem from last year with a couple of prickles.

Perhaps it's of some help to know that there aren't really many prickles at all on this rose.

I'm not here during the Winter but I don't recall seeing any hips at all even when I came back in February. Do all tea roses have hips?

Tricia

    Bookmark   April 9, 2014 at 1:48PM
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nikthegreek(9b/10a E of Athens)

Since no one in the know has replied yet, I might still ask. Is this a rose that flowers all summer long until frosts come (if any)? Regarding hips, it obviously wouldn't set them if you're deadheading the spent blooms. Are you? This could be a tea but it could also be an early hybrid tea imo. But what do I know? I'm fairly new to all this tea thing!
Nik

    Bookmark   April 9, 2014 at 3:00PM
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tuderte(USDA 9a equiv.)

Hi Nik,

I planted the two cuttings in mid-July last year - they immediately put on lots of new growth and by the end of August were flowering - they continued to flower prolifically until I left in late November. For all I know they could have flowered through the Winter because this year it wasn't really cold here.

I didn't deadhead any of the blooms and didn't see any hips on the plant when I returned (unlike the dog roses in my hedgerow that were still covered with hips).

The flowers last year had quite a different appearance from the flowers this year.

I'm attaching a photo I took of one of the blooms on the 4th September last year.

I have another photo from late October which is different again but I don't see how I can upload more than one image at a time :-(

Cheers
Tricia

    Bookmark   April 9, 2014 at 3:50PM
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tuderte(USDA 9a equiv.)

This is a bloom from late October 2013 - I think it's fascinating the way the blooms change so much depending on the season.

Tricia

    Bookmark   April 9, 2014 at 4:45PM
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Embothrium(USDA 8 Sunset 5 WA)

You really need to show more of it for anyone here to get the full measure of what it looks like.

    Bookmark   April 9, 2014 at 4:50PM
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AquaEyes 7a New Jersey

In the first post, there's a link to several more pics. I'm posting it again below.

:-)

~Christopher

Here is a link that might be useful: Tuderte's mystery rose

    Bookmark   April 9, 2014 at 8:15PM
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porkpal zone 9 Tx

Thanks, Christopher!

    Bookmark   April 9, 2014 at 8:41PM
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jannorcal(No CA z9)

I posted a link to this on my Facebook page and asked the Australian tea ladies to comment as I thought your rose looked similar to a found rose in Australia called "Bishops Lodge Aw Mow". Two of them thought the rose looked very familiar (to some of their found roses in Australia).

Billy had these comments regarding the comparison of the Italian rose and the Australian rose:
"The only thing that strikes me as different is the shape of the receptacle - "Bishop's Lodge Ah Mow" tends to have quite a squat receptacle, whereas this rose's receptacle is definitely elongated.
Could you ask whether the pedicels are smooth or glandular - to the eye and to the touch? "BL Ah Mow" is smooth.
Another Australian foundling worth having a look at on HMF is "Kombacy Marianne" which sometimes looks similar to "BL Ah Mow". This one has a very distinctive receptacle and pedicel and both receptacle and pedicel feel like sandpaper. Glandular pedicels are not uncommon on Teas, but it is less common to find a Tea with such a glandular receptacle. It's incredibly variable in form and colour over the season."

So, in the opinion of the Australian Tea Rose authors, could be Bishop's Lodge Ah Mow if the receptacle matches, but also could be the same as other found roses in Oz. Doesn't help with an actual ID though. Sorry.

Tuderte, Could you look at the pedicel and check for the glandular structures as mentioned by Billy?

Thanks!

    Bookmark   April 9, 2014 at 10:44PM
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nikthegreek(9b/10a E of Athens)

A few other things that might help before one delves into the details of morphology:
Knowing something about the history of the cemetery it was found. Is it a very old pre 20th century one? The rose's cold hardiness. What are the winter lows in that particular location and does the plant experience any dieback? Also, the all important matter of fragrance was not discussed. This is certainly a tea or early HT but naming it without some contextual info and just by looking at pics may prove difficult.
Nik
PS Contacting the nice Americans at the tea rose nursery in France who collect teas and related roses from all over Europe and the world may also help. Link is below

Here is a link that might be useful: La Roseraie du Desért

This post was edited by nikthegreek on Thu, Apr 10, 14 at 0:05

    Bookmark   April 9, 2014 at 11:56PM
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tuderte(USDA 9a equiv.)

How exciting to wake up this morning and see so many replies and so much interest. I see I have a whole new vocabulary to learn, too.

First though, my sincere thanks to everyone who has taken such an interest in the rose and for being so incredibly helpful.

I've taken some more photos this morning that I hope will be more helpful. Unfortunately, I seem to be able to only upload one image at a time, so I'm attaching an image of the pedicel of a bud that I cut off this morning for the purposes to trying to provide more information.

In the image you can see the little protuberances along the pedicel and it definitely does feel like sandpaper. However, to me, the receptacle feels smooth.

I will upload more photos - if anyone can tell me how to upload more than one at a time I would be very grateful.

Tricia

    Bookmark   April 10, 2014 at 2:34AM
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nikthegreek(9b/10a E of Athens)

Tricia you can't upload more than one pic at a time directly. You will have to use an external service and then either provide the link like you have done above or better embed the images here using 'code' that the service provides (a service like photobucket or imageshack).
Nik

    Bookmark   April 10, 2014 at 3:53AM
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avalon2007

Hi Tricia,

The color and form of the bud says Devoniensis to me, but I'm certainly no expert. Devoniensis is slow growing, and the flowers are variable in color from white to pink to pale yellow, depending on the growing conditions.

Here is a link that might be useful: Devoniensis helpmefind

    Bookmark   April 10, 2014 at 7:29AM
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dmny(z7 NY)

Might it be 'Safrano'?

    Bookmark   April 10, 2014 at 8:21AM
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tuderte(USDA 9a equiv.)

Hi Nik,

Thank you for letting me know that I can't upload more than one photo - I thought I must be missing something! Unfortunately, I've had both computer and internet problems today so haven't been able to upload any photos other than the earlier one I posted here.

The 'old cemetery' here is very old. Most burials were before 1900, however, the mother plant from which I took the cuttings is planted at the base of a stone column that commemorates several deaths - the last one in 1904.

Jannorcal, thank you for all your trouble. I hope that I can sort out my computer/internet problems overnight and provide a link to more detailed photos tomorrow.

Something else that I didn't mention earlier but I did notice today on all the open blooms is that the base of the petals have a definite yellow tinge.

Fragrance - the perfume is glorious but I'm recovering from a nasty dose of the 'flu so describing it as anything other than 'intensely rose scented' is a bit beyond me.

I would also think that the rose would be described as fast growing, given that I planted the cuttings mid-July last year and the bush is now almost 1 metre (it's 95 cms) tall - it's covered in buds and blooms at the moment - a quick count just now gave me 67 (mostly buds - about 15 blooms).

I checked several of the 'receptacles' and they are definitely smooth - both to the eye and to the touch. The pedicels are definitely glandular (if that means they feel like sandpaper) however, until I felt them I would have said that, to my eye, they were smooth. I wear glasses so that might account for my thinking they were smooth before I felt them.

Anything else I can think of I will post tomorrow with the other detailed photos.

Thank you again to everyone for your interest and suggestions.

Tricia

    Bookmark   April 10, 2014 at 1:03PM
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jacqueline9CA

Can anyone (not me - I am ignorant) comment on the prickles? They are so straight, and so red - not curved like most. Also in the pic of the prickles there is a newer stem behind that is the same color red, with also straight prickles.

Jackie

    Bookmark   April 10, 2014 at 1:53PM
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nikthegreek(9b/10a E of Athens)

Hi Tricia,

I take it that by 'intensely rose scented' you mean it has a sweet typical rose scent? The one most people not familiar with oriental (teas and the like) scents would attribute to a rose? The one rose parfumes try to emulate? Like the old once flowering European roses? Not fresh grass or fruity smell? If that's the case maybe we should start thinking about early HTs rather than 'proper' Teas. La France or similar anyone? Or am I talking nonsense here?
Nik

    Bookmark   April 10, 2014 at 2:03PM
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melissa_thefarm(NItaly)

Tricia,
I don't know what your rose is, but it is making my mouth water. Would you be interested in a cuttings swap this fall? (I've done this often by mail.) I have a good collection of roses including a number of Teas, some of them grown from cuttings. I live in the province of Piacenza.
I'm always interested in meeting another forum member who lives in Italy.
Melissa

    Bookmark   April 10, 2014 at 11:25PM
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ingrid_vc(Z10 SoCal)

Nik, you mentioned La France, which of course it isn't, but it brought to mind its sport, Augustine Guinoisseau. I wonder if that might be a possibility?

Ingrid

    Bookmark   April 11, 2014 at 1:37AM
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jaspermplants

The prickles look a lot like the ones on my Devonensis and the blooms in the pictures could be that rose. I second Avalon2007 on that guess. My Devonensis is tall and very very prickly.

    Bookmark   April 11, 2014 at 12:45PM
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tuderte(USDA 9a equiv.)

I've been pulling my hair out for hours trying to set up a Photobucket account, then upload the photos and then try and link to them â¦. I hope this works because, if it doesn't I'm going to bed anyhow - it's almost midnight.

I believe that this should link to the photos taken yesterday and today of the rose -

There must be an easier way to do this but I'm afraid I haven't found it!

The link should show 12 or 13 images with descriptions - I apologise in advance if it doesn't work â¦.

Melissa, I would be very happy to do a 'cutting swap' with you next Autumn.

Avalon 2007 and Jaspermplants - I had a look at the images of Devoniensis on HMF - those images seem to all be different from my rose - much paler and the form somehow isn't the same. Also, my rose doesn't have many prickles at all, although it's still a young bush - perhaps the prickles develop as the bush ages? I do think it will be a tall plant because the 'mother' plant is well over 2 metres tall.

Ingrid, I had a look at the photos on HMF of Mlle. Augustine Guinoisseau - there is quite a likeness, however, one thing I noticed is that the pedicel on all the photos of Augustine Guinoisseau is green and the leaves are also pale green, whereas my rose has a red pedicel and darker green leaves which have red serrated edges - (please excuse my description if it's very amateur).

I was hoping to go to the cemetery today and take photos of the mother plant but I didn't make it. I will have to wait now until Monday because there are generally a lot of people there on the weekend. I thought that some images of the mother plant might be an aid to identification.

Tricia

    Bookmark   April 11, 2014 at 6:00PM
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jaspermplants

I can't remember whether Devonensis had many prickles when younger; don't think so.

I hear you on Photbucket; tried a couple times and gave up; so now I don't post many photos; trying to post them drives me crazy!

    Bookmark   April 11, 2014 at 6:48PM
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tuderte(USDA 9a equiv.)

Whoops, sorry â¦. thought I re-loaded the page but in fact I re-posted the message. Will try and get the link to the Photobucket account sorted so all images are visible.

Tricia

This post was edited by Tuderte on Sat, Apr 12, 14 at 2:34

    Bookmark   April 12, 2014 at 2:31AM
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tuderte(USDA 9a equiv.)

I'm having another try â¦. I think that the problem with my previous post was that I clicked on the HTML code link for one image â¦. my apologies!

I believe that this should be the appropriate link to the 12 photos I've uploaded to the Photobucket site -

Well - that didn't work â¦. when I went to Preview Message I received a warning from Gardenweb that the HTML code was either wrong or may have contained a profanity (which it didn't) â¦.

I really don't want to waste any more time trying to upload these images.

For anyone who's interested I'll add them all to my 'Old Cemetery Rose - more detailed shots' folder on Dropbox.

The Dropbox link is -

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/3v6rsldmqobputw/xFSAtlZ63B

I'm sorry but I don't know how to turn the URL into a link - I'm afraid that you will have to copy the URL and paste it into your browser.

Cheers
Tricia

    Bookmark   April 12, 2014 at 3:42AM
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malcolm_manners

I could, perhaps, believe 'Devoniensis' -- it can show some yellow, especially after a cool night, and in very chilly weather, you'll get completely yellow flowers on it. My one concern with that ID is that our 'Devoniensis' tends to have the prickles slightly down-turned, not perfectly straight out.

    Bookmark   April 12, 2014 at 10:31AM
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nikthegreek(9b/10a E of Athens)

Tricia,

If one clicks on the pic above they can see all your images in photobucket.

To just publish a link here, for example your dropbox url, you just have to paste it in the 'optional link url' field at the bottom of the posting screen and give it a name in the 'name of the link' field. LIke I have done below

Here is a link that might be useful: Tricia's Dropbox with the noid rose pics

    Bookmark   April 12, 2014 at 12:39PM
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tuderte(USDA 9a equiv.)

Hi Nik,

Thank you for being my 'guardian angel' on matters technical. I must admit that I was so frustrated I was ready to give up completely.

I've spent all day today planting out the last of my lavenders - and now we're getting gentle rain so I'm happy on behalf of the lavenders but upset for the roses because we have 'moderate' rain forecast for the next 6 hours and then tomorrow's high will be around 20 degrees. I'm fighting a losing battle with aphids and black spot at the moment.

Hopefully, the next time I need to link to any photos it will work seamlessly - thanks to you.

Cheers
Tricia

    Bookmark   April 12, 2014 at 1:19PM
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PortlandMysteryRose(8)

Tricia, I haven't commented but have been following your adventures (both technological and horticultural). I sympathize with the technological challenges. I still load photos one at a time. I have been checking in with your thread to watch the ID of your rose unfold. What a wonderful find! It still amazes me that I am part of these conversations with rose lovers/collectors halfway across the globe. I'm going to remember that Nik is technologically advanced. I'll refer to this thread and call on Nik if I become bold enough to attempt Photobucket. Carol

    Bookmark   April 12, 2014 at 3:13PM
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SouthCountryGuy Zone 4b-5 SE BC(Zone 4b-5 SE BC Canada)

Regarding photo bucket, load the image and then click on "direct" in the "links to share this photo" box. Then when you want to embed the image in your post type

__img src="paste copied direct link here"_>_

If you can see the underscore signs ( _ ) remove all of them. If not just close the space between You can then embed as many images when and where you like within the post.

Beautiful looking rose!

SCG

    Bookmark   April 12, 2014 at 3:42PM
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tuderte(USDA 9a equiv.)

Hi Carol,

Thanks to Nik I discovered that clicking on the photo in the thread linked to all the photos I'd uploaded to Photobucket! I'd have never known â¦.

All I can suggest is that if you attempt Photobucket have a good, stiff drink to hand â¦

I never imagined that so many people would be interested in 'my' rose but I have to say that it's very quickly becoming my favourite - it's covered with blooms and buds and every flower is slightly different from the next!

Now that I know (from Nik) how to link to photos I'll upload photos of the mother plant at the old cemetery on Monday afternoon. I'm thinking that more experienced rose growers might recognise the form of the older plant.

I share your sentiments about how rose lovers all over the globe can share their passions via forums like this ⦠my interest in old roses was sparked by my sister (who lives in Australia) giving me a wonderful book last Christmas. It was written by a group of Australian rosarians and is called 'Tea Roses - Old Roses for Warm Gardens' - there are some absolutely breathtaking roses in it.

Tricia

    Bookmark   April 12, 2014 at 4:01PM
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PortlandMysteryRose(8)

Tricia, I love that book! Carol

    Bookmark   April 13, 2014 at 12:35AM
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jannorcal(No CA z9)

Tricia,
It is the author's of that book who I shared your pictures with. I will let Billy West know about your observations of the rose and see if she has any more comments.
Amirose (who used to comment here, not sure if he still does) thought that it could be Princesse Marie Dagmar.

    Bookmark   April 14, 2014 at 12:45AM
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tuderte(USDA 9a equiv.)

Hi Jannorcal,

I'm about to grab my camera and head out to the old cemetery to take some photos of the 'mother plant' - I'm hoping it may help in identifying my rose - we had 23mm of rain (almost an inch) on Saturday night and, as we're on heavy clay soil, it's impossible to do anything in the garden this morning.

Will post the photos when I get back.

Tricia

    Bookmark   April 14, 2014 at 5:13AM
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melissa_thefarm(NItaly)

Tricia, thanks for your readiness to consider a swap. I usually do this in October/November, once it has cooled down and begun to rain. Later on we can talk about possible candidates for an exchange.
I wouldn't mind an inch of rain right now, our sodden winter notwithstanding. The young plants could use a watering.
Melissa

    Bookmark   April 14, 2014 at 12:37PM
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tuderte(USDA 9a equiv.)

Hi Melissa, I took my cuttings in October (2012) but didn't manage any last year. A friend of mine here who has some wonderful roses said that he always has more success with cuttings taken in October.

I spent a couple of hours at the 'vecchio cimitero' this morning with my camera - I came back to the thread to check Nik's advice on how to post photos â¦. think I'll pour myself a big Campari first and then get down to work!

Tricia

    Bookmark   April 14, 2014 at 2:08PM
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tuderte(USDA 9a equiv.)

I'm very happy I had that Campari â¦. I needed it!!!

I finally gave up on Photo Bucket because it was too tedious trying to upload my images from iPhoto (I use a Mac and Photo Bucket no longer provides a plugin for iPhoto, so you have to move the photos to the Desktop and then upload them one at a time).

I decided to give Flickr a go -

This is the link - I'm going to see if it works in the 'Optional Link URL' box â¦.

If it doesn't, I'll be back â¦.

Here is a link that might be useful: Old Cemetery Rose - Mother plant

    Bookmark   April 14, 2014 at 5:54PM
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tuderte(USDA 9a equiv.)

Grrrr,

I discovered when I tried to upload my photos to Flickr I already had a Flickr account that I hadn't used for years. You will see Comments from 'Scadger' attached to my photos taken today - those Comments were my attempt to provide some contextual information for the photos.

My apologies to everyone for the mess I'm making of this â¦

Tricia

    Bookmark   April 14, 2014 at 5:59PM
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john_hook(France)

This could be Mrs. Campbell Hall I havn't checked against mine but vaguely recall straight prickles. Walter Branchi was selling this rose in Italy. ???????? Sorry just checked and I'm incorrect, it was the prickles of Mrs S T Wright another Dickson rose of a different colour

This post was edited by john_hook on Sun, Aug 17, 14 at 15:09

    Bookmark   August 16, 2014 at 12:21PM
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tuderte(USDA 9a equiv.)

Hello John,

thank you so much for your response. I checked on Help Me Find and there are certainly similarities. I wanted to take some more photos today of a new cane and also of some hips that are on the bush at present, however, we've had a very strong North wind blowing here all day so I'll take them tomorrow when the wind has died down.

One thing I note - Mrs. Campbell Hall was introduced in 1914/5 but the rose from which I took my cutting is on a grave, for which the last burial occurred in 1904. Do you think it likely that the rose might have been planted more than ten years later?

Tricia

    Bookmark   August 17, 2014 at 2:57PM
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jerijen(Zone 10)

One thing we find is that a grave from one era CAN be the home of a rose from a later era. It makes sense, when you think that the rose COULD have been planted by someone's grandchild . . .

But what IS the period of significance of this cemetery? If you said, I missed it. Earliest burials? Most-recent burials? And is it regularly maintained, or a bit neglected.

And -- I also love your rose. It's a beauty. :-)

Jeri

    Bookmark   August 17, 2014 at 9:14PM
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tuderte(USDA 9a equiv.)

Hi Jeri, yes, of course you're right.

It's very hard to know exactly how old the 'Vecchio Cimitero Urbano' (Old Town Cemetery) is here. Todi has been an inhabited hill town since pre-Etruscan times! However, I understand that this cemetery has been used for a couple of hundred years - it is now 'closed' for burials but, as many of the graves are actually family tombs, then when someone dies whose family has a tomb in the old cemetery that still has space in it, they can be buried there.

There are some wonderful old roses in this cemetery - I've now managed to successfully grow cuttings of three different roses.

Some time ago you posted a 'Guide to Identifying Roses' by Mrs. Keays which, more recently, another member re-posted. I'm diligently reading through it so that I may be able to be more specific when asking for help identifying my other two unknown roses from the cemetery.

Perhaps, though, you might be able to tell me how to describe the form of this particular rose - it doesn't seem to 'fit' any of the forms in Mrs. Keays' article?

BTW, this is another one of the roses from the old cemetery that I managed to get to grow -

Tricia

    Bookmark   August 18, 2014 at 3:11AM
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luxrosa

Omigod! I could weep for the joy of seeing your rose, of rich pink and peach,
like watered silk in splendor...

thank you for posting a photo of that thrice gorgeous beauty,

Lux.

    Bookmark   August 18, 2014 at 9:47PM
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jerijen(Zone 10)

Lux is right. That's breathtaking.

Maybe there's a description for that form, but I can only call it "muddled." And to be more accurate, a WONDERFUL Muddle.

It's what U.S. rose judges (at least, those I've encountered) really, truly loathe about Tea roses -- and I absolutely love. Try sometime explaining that that is what they're SUPPOSED to look like. And therefore, it is correct, and perfect.

I did want to show you what new growth (and new prickles) look like on 'Mme. Lombard.'

Jeri

    Bookmark   August 18, 2014 at 11:14PM
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ingrid_vc(Z10 SoCal)

I wonder if the first rose might be Jean Bach Sisley. It's supposed to be scented, and it does remind me of the one I once owned.

The second rose looks even more beautiful to me and, as Jeri points out, it certainly is muddled, in such a charming way. It also has the most lovely pink shadings. I'm so glad you were able to plant one of its kind in your garden.

Ingrid

    Bookmark   August 18, 2014 at 11:34PM
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