Identify this

Thurksh(9A)April 20, 2014

I need to know the name of this rose.

Thanks!

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Thurksh(9A)

Pic of the full plant:

    Bookmark   April 20, 2014 at 6:41AM
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HoosierBob SW Indiana Zone 5

Just a guess...the tea rose, Rosette Delizy?

    Bookmark   April 20, 2014 at 7:47AM
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belmont8

It reminds me of Monsieur Tillier. Or I should say the rose I have as Monsieur Tillier.

This post was edited by belmont on Sun, Apr 20, 14 at 8:32

    Bookmark   April 20, 2014 at 8:20AM
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tuderte(USDA 9a equiv.)

Thurksh, whatever rose it is - it's truly wonderful - could you give any more information? Do you know how old the bush is, is this a recent photo, are the flowers fragrant, can you say where it's growing?

Tricia

    Bookmark   April 20, 2014 at 9:01AM
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Thurksh(9A)

Rosette Delizy and Monsieur Tillier are similars but not the same color and shape.

This rose grows in Alhambra gardens, Granada (Spain) And I think that's once blooming. The age of the bush is unknow, scent? not remarkable for me.

And yes, the pic was taken a week ago or so.

I was thinking about the roses "Alchimist" or "Gloire de Dijon", but I never have seen this ones in the real, so I dont know.

    Bookmark   April 20, 2014 at 12:18PM
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trospero(8)

I guarantee you, the rose you've shown us is neither 'Alchymist', nor 'Gloire de Dijon'. It very closely resembles what we have in commerce in the USA as 'Mons. Tillier'.

    Bookmark   April 20, 2014 at 12:42PM
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Thurksh(9A)

I think it's very similar to "Mons. Tillier", but this one, is clearly more yellow.

Here is a link that might be useful:

    Bookmark   April 20, 2014 at 12:53PM
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nastarana(5a)

Do you believe it is a tea? Could it possibly be a gigantea hybrid?

    Bookmark   April 20, 2014 at 12:57PM
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trospero(8)

Teas are gigantea hybrids ;-)

    Bookmark   April 20, 2014 at 1:02PM
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ingrid_vc so. CA zone 9

To me it looks like Rosette Delizy. I think they've put that bush on steroids. It looks wonderful against the green background of the trees.

Ingrid

    Bookmark   April 20, 2014 at 5:20PM
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jerijen(Zone 10)

No -- The form doesn't look right for Rosette Delizy. Here's Rosette Delizy in Southern California, in a fairly cool coastal climate (it heat, it would be more pastel).

I suggest that you try sending this photo to someone like Gregg Lowery of Vintage Gardens, or to John Hook, in France. OR to the wonderful Aussie ladies who wrote: "TEA ROSES: Old Roses for Warm Gardens." It could be something we in the U.S. don't have. Australia and Europe still have many things we do not.

    Bookmark   April 20, 2014 at 6:05PM
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PortlandMysteryRose(8)

Thurksh, your rose looks a lot like what I know as Mons. Tillier. I see that you are located in Spain, and I think there's some confusion between Mons. Tillier and Archduke Joseph. I may have grown the opposite of what you've grown in Europe. Carol

    Bookmark   April 20, 2014 at 7:28PM
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melissa_thefarm(NItaly)

As I understand it our European 'Archduke Joseph' is the U.S.'s 'Monsieur Tillier'. This doesn't look quite like 'Archduke Joseph' to me: the flower is a bit too frilly and disordered....AJ is more neatly cupped in form, and not quite so, ah, vivid in its coloration, though it has that copper-pink range of tones seen in these photos. The foliage is equally clean, but (here I'm quibbling), AJ's is perhaps slightly darker. AJ has a pronounced Tea fragrance. I don't recognized this variety, but it certainly is beautiful.

    Bookmark   April 21, 2014 at 12:01AM
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PortlandMysteryRose(8)

Could it be Cementina Carbonieri? Carol

    Bookmark   April 21, 2014 at 2:20AM
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bart_2010(8/9 Italy)

I'd vote against AJ,definitely; flower shape wrong ,and I've never seen mine with that much yellow/apricot,and there has never been that much contrast between the colour tones either. But I wouldn't say Clementina Carbobieri, either, really,since mine has never displayed those cool pink tones,and again,shows less contrast between darks and lights. However, teas do vary enormously in colour depending on weather, time or year, etc. I agree with Jeri; ask Gregg Lowery and/or John Hook for an opinion....bart

    Bookmark   April 21, 2014 at 6:13AM
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bellegallica_zone9(9)

Just a guess--and bad one I'm sure:

Mademoiselle Francisca Krüger?

MFK is mostly yellow/orange, but in cool weather it can take on those pink tones.

    Bookmark   April 21, 2014 at 11:42AM
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PortlandMysteryRose(8)

Thurksh, please let us know what you discover about the identity. The rose you photographed is as enchantng as the garden in which it resides. I can almost hear Flamenco guitars. Carol

    Bookmark   April 21, 2014 at 3:15PM
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ArbutusOmnedo 10/24

Could it be Souvenir de Victor Hugo?

Jay

    Bookmark   April 21, 2014 at 4:36PM
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luxrosa

I don't know what it is, but I desire it greatly.
I would bet it's an Old Garden Tea ;
-from the way the blooms nod so prettily.
-the high number of blooms per square foot of canopy.
-size of plant, and grace of canopy says Tea to me.

I would think it would be a Tea from after 1900, it reminds me of Clementina Carbonieri' ( which I grow near Monsier Tillier and Rosette Delizy) but I do not think it is that rose, but perhaps it is a descendant of it, your rose is more vividly colored and has fewer petals and though it has a similar bloom shape the degree of angle of the back petal row is greater than Clementina Carbonieri's, I believe.

Could you possibly show us a photo of the back of a bloom?
A close up of the foliage would help as well. ;

I wish I were in Spain today...
Thanks for posting such a beautiful photo of a divine rose, it really made my day. I love Tea roses, and never loved roses at all until I saw Old Garden Tea roses in bloom.
Lux.

    Bookmark   April 21, 2014 at 7:10PM
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melissa_thefarm(NItaly)

Another 'no' vote for 'Clementina Carbonieri'. The flowers on mine are more cupped and have a good deal of yellow in them, a range of pink-orange-gold like a sunset. In fact the blooms on CC look like a David Austin rose with more vivid coloration.

    Bookmark   April 22, 2014 at 1:17AM
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PortlandMysteryRose(8)

I tried to locate a rose list for the Alhambra gardens but couldn't. I wish public gardens listed major plants by name. Carol

    Bookmark   April 22, 2014 at 2:13AM
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john_hook(France)

As this is in a historic garden in Spain, there is a possibility that a rose from a Spanish breeder would be used. The rose looks like a tea and 'Amando Casado' bred by Pries in 1891 matches the picture. Of course this is a wild guess and it would be good to talk to the head gardener to try to get more info concerning the history of the rose.

    Bookmark   May 23, 2014 at 4:15PM
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Evenie

I think I have seen that rose before in the antique rose garden in Louis Armstrong Park. I can't remember what it was called, but I remember that it was Italian. The next time I'm downtown, I'll go look and see. Of course, I'll bring back pictures.

    Bookmark   May 23, 2014 at 5:34PM
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jill_perry_gw(z9 CA)

I know that Clementina Carboniera is confused with Souvenir de J B Guillot in commerce. If not one it could be the other. There could also have been tea roses bred in Spain that didn't make it to other countries. I agree it's none of the others that have been mentioned.
Jill

    Bookmark   May 24, 2014 at 10:11PM
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plan9fromposhmadison(8A Madison Mississippi)

Am I the only one who sees certain similarities with Le Vesuve? The substance of the leaves, and the fullness of the bush, both tell me that there's more than just 'Tea' in this wonderful rose.

    Bookmark   May 25, 2014 at 2:34PM
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mlle_melanie

Evenie, hi! *Waiving at you from across the river in Algiers Point*

It's nice to see a fellow New Orleanian here. Unfortunately, that's all I have to say since I'm a rose newbie and wouldn't be of much help identifying for Thurksh. I agree that the rose is totally gorgeous; can't wait to see if someone figures it out. If it turns up in Armstrong Park, I will definitely have to pay it a visit. Can you believe I've never been in there?? I was just saying the other day how much I'd like to see it, so now maybe this will actually make me go.

    Bookmark   May 25, 2014 at 3:26PM
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mlle_melanie

It kind of looks like this Harkness rose:

Here is a link that might be useful: Lady of the Mist

    Bookmark   May 25, 2014 at 3:54PM
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Campanula UK Z8

Mmmm, I would be going with one of Pedro Dots pernettianas (Girona et al) - there is a distinctly modern look to this.

    Bookmark   May 25, 2014 at 4:45PM
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Thurksh(9A)

I'm sorry! I never get to identify the rose, I found similar roses but not exactly the same... Endly I feel confused o_0

But lot of thanks to everybody!!!

    Bookmark   September 22, 2014 at 4:21PM
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ingrid_vc so. CA zone 9

plan9, it's definitely not Le Vesuve, of which I have two plants. That rose is pink all the way through, with no hint of yellow or apricot tones, and it also has fewer petals. Of the roses known to me, it still looks closest to the Rosette Delizy growing in my garden, which is not to say that it couldn't be one that we haven't heard of here.

Ingrid

    Bookmark   September 22, 2014 at 4:39PM
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ycavaz(9)

Maybe 'Isabella Nabonnand'?

    Bookmark   January 27, 2015 at 5:00PM
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jacqueline9CA

Definitely not Rosette Delizy. The form of the blooms is wrong, the petals are wrong (too frilly), the petal count is wrong, and the colors are much paler and blended together.

Thurksh - look at the web site Help Me Find/roses, and look at the pictures of 'Isabella Nabonnand' (tea, Nabonnand, 1873) - I think ycavaz has figured it out.

Jackie

    Bookmark   January 27, 2015 at 5:26PM
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Thurksh(9A)

Thanks Jackie!

I think 'Isabella Nabonnand' is the best candidate.

    Bookmark   January 27, 2015 at 5:36PM
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flowerchild_tx8b(z8bTX)

Marie Van Houtte? or Mrs. Dudley Cross?

    Bookmark   January 28, 2015 at 2:13PM
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john_hook(France)

Tea roses have had very little impact in Spain. The French breeders were hardly noticed unlike in Italy but the Spanish breeders were popular (like Dot) particularly with the HTs
A Spanish breeder was mentioned in Rosenlexikon 1936 with this rose that seems to match the pics
Casado, Amanda (tea) Pries 1891; yellowish copper-pink, occasionally marbled white-pink, outer petals pink, medium size, double.
Unfortunately there isn't much more info.

    Bookmark   January 28, 2015 at 3:35PM
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jerijen(Zone 10)

If that's 'Isabella Nabonnand,' I want it!

    Bookmark   January 28, 2015 at 4:55PM
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jerijen(Zone 10)

If that's 'Isabella Nabonnand,' I want it!

    Bookmark   January 28, 2015 at 4:56PM
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jacqueline9CA

Me too, Jeri. IN, does have the darker coloring that makes me think that that is it. HMF says that the only source in the US is Angel Gardens, but their current web site says that they do not have it. Grrrrr..

Jackie

    Bookmark   January 28, 2015 at 6:00PM
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luxrosa

It's odd to me, but the foliage and wood appear identical to my 'Mme. Berkeley' which I bought from vintagegardens.com
I was just outside trimming it. I write "odd" because it has never shown those rich hues in its' blossoms that I see in your photo.
But since I believe the flower is only c. 25% of i.d. traits (as G.L. told me), I would say, and after looking at all the variable photos of Mme Berkeley, on helpmefind.com /Roses, where photos do show that deeper hue of orange and salmon, adding to that the foliage and wood appear identical to my M.B., I think it is possible that it is
'Mme. Berkeley'.
To further the identification process, photos;
- of prickles
- hips
- and an average open bloom
would be useful, with a measuring stick shown in the photo below each of those 3 items.

Gosh that's a pretty rose. Tea rose blossoms can vary a lot in their coloration depending on climate and conditions.

Lux.

    Bookmark   January 28, 2015 at 7:25PM
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sultry_jasmine_nights (Florida 9a)

I want one too! Its really beautiful. I hope its available soon if it is Isabella Nabonnand.
~SJN

    Bookmark   January 28, 2015 at 10:27PM
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comtessedelacouche (10b S.Australia: hotdryMedclimate)

Came across a recent introduction, Mary Ann, Tantau, Germany, 2010.
While it has a similarly vivid colouration, it appears much more modern, with its very upright, stiffish blooms facing upwards, form. However, as happens so frustratingly often, even HMF doesn't show pictures of blooms at all stages - is it possible that Thuksh's picture simply shows this rose at a more overblown stage, with necks drooping, looking much more Tea-like? I note what might be a more upright cluster of a bud and a just-opening bloom. The buds look a bit too pink here, however, I wonder whether in a different light they might perhaps show that same distinctive dark red colour of Mary Ann's buds.
The stems and pedicels - or peduncles - of Thurksh's rose appear to me to be a similar purplish colour, but some more detailed pics would really be needed, as Luxrosa suggests, to draw any conclusions - as would more detailed pics on HMF.
I have to admit, the more I look at it, the less it looks like it (just too stiff all round), but what do y'all think?

    Bookmark   January 30, 2015 at 4:04AM
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