Can this really be Rosa Sombreuil?

tuderte(USDA 9a equiv.)April 4, 2014

Last year I bought several 'own root' old garden roses from a long-established nursery here in Italy. One of the roses was the 'Sombreuil' climbing rose - not 'Mlle. de Sombreuil' tea rose.

The plant was very small so I put it in a 30 cm (12 inch) pot. I was very excited when I noticed that it had several buds. Three days ago one of the buds opened and, although the flower is beautiful I really doubt that it is 'Sombreuil'. I'm attaching a photo (I hope - this is my first attempt) and hope that someone with experience of this rose might be able to confirm whether the rose looks like this in early Spring.

The rose at this stage is approximately 30 cms tall with a diameter of approx. 40 cms.

Perhaps the flowers will change as the bush gets older?

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trospero(8)

No, that is not the climber we grow in North America as 'Sombreuil'.

    Bookmark   April 4, 2014 at 1:28PM
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jerijen(Zone 10)

Agree with Paul. That is NOT the H.wich climber grown in North America as "Sombreuil." (See that rose, below.)

Jeri

    Bookmark   April 4, 2014 at 2:39PM
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poorbutroserich(Nashville 7a)

Looks like Reve D'or to me.
Susan

    Bookmark   April 4, 2014 at 3:38PM
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PortlandMysteryRose(8)

It appears to be tea-like to me, too, Susan. Tuderte, I'd email the nursery where you purchased your plant and include your photo in the letter. I think the seller should send you another (real) Sombreuil. If the nursery has an ID answer for your current not-Sombreuil, please post. Now I'm curious. You might have a really great old rose! Carol

    Bookmark   April 4, 2014 at 3:46PM
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PortlandMysteryRose(8)

By tea-like, I meant tea or tea-noisette. I can't really tell the difference between the two when the plants and blooms are babies. Carol

    Bookmark   April 4, 2014 at 5:38PM
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tuderte(USDA 9a equiv.)

Thank you Paul, Jeri, Susan and Carol for your very prompt responses to my query.

I will do as Carol suggested and send them an email with attached photos - their tag is still on the Rose - when I read the tag it's quite confusing because, apart from the name 'Sombreuil' it refers to the colour as being 'bianco creme sfumato di rosa al centro' (creamy white with pale pink centre). The tag also says that it's a climber to 400 cms and on the right hand corner of the tag it has 'M. Robert 1850 Francia' which, obviously, refers to the breeder of the tea rose 'Mlle. de Sombreuil' not to the climbing rose 'Sombreuil', if I understand the situation with these two roses correctly.

As a matter of interest, I'm also attaching a photo I took this afternoon of a second bud (somewhat rain affected) which is just opening but, clearly, it's not 'creamy white' by any stretch of the imagination.

Tricia

    Bookmark   April 4, 2014 at 5:40PM
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jerijen(Zone 10)

Tricia -- I don't like to jump at an Identification based on 1-2 blooms, but I think your rose could well be Reve d'Or -- You might check to see if the nursery you purchased from carries Reve d'Or. "R" and "S" are close together, so an accidental switch could easily be made.

I'm about 90% certain the error that identified that H. wich as 'Sombreuil' took place in the 1950's at Roses Of Yesterday And Today. They shipped it all over the world -- so the error is now world-wide.

Jeri

    Bookmark   April 4, 2014 at 6:24PM
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tuderte(USDA 9a equiv.)

Hi Jeri, many thanks for the suggestion - I searched for Reve d'Or but there were zero results, so I went through their old roses to see if anything looked similar - the only rose I could find to which it bore some resemblance was 'Desprez ÃÂ fleurs jaunes' - and then only to one particular photo of that rose on Help Me Find.

However, they no longer have DAFJ in stock - I don't know whether they had it last year when I ordered my roses so that's probably not of much use in trying to pin down an identification.

I don't know much at all about tea roses but I took a few cuttings at my local (ancient) cemetery in October 2012, some of them were successful and have grown - their new growth looks a lot like the new growth on my so-called 'Sombreuil' - here's a photo of my plant - do you think it looks like a tea rose? Also, the flowers seem to nod quite a bit once they open but perhaps this isn't significant â¦

Thank you again for your help. Tricia

    Bookmark   April 5, 2014 at 11:12AM
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PortlandMysteryRose(8)

Tuderte, both the nodding blossom and the red foliage are typical tea. They may also indicate tea-noisette. The apricot bloom coloring is common to both classes as well. Deprez a Fleur Jaunes is very similar to Reve d'Or which Susan and Jeri suggested. Lovely rose you are growing, whatever it is! Carol

    Bookmark   April 5, 2014 at 3:19PM
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tuderte(USDA 9a equiv.)

Thank you for replying Carol - I will send an email to the nursery with the images I've posted above and ask them if they can suggest what it might be - I'm assuming that they won't claim it to be 'Sombreuil' even if that's what the tag says. Tricia

    Bookmark   April 5, 2014 at 4:55PM
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Embothrium(USDA 8 Sunset 5 WA)

I thought the North American 'S'. and 'Mme S.' were supposed to be the same thing.

The older version of the Roses of etc. nursery apparently sent out more than one cultivar under the wrong names; another example is 'Venusta Pendula', which is common here reportedly because Roses of etc. dispersed it as 'Felicite et Perpetue'.

But then the person that (as I remember it) told me this also sold a rose themselves under the wrong name for a time, and this rose has now itself become prevalent in local gardens - and been dispersed outside of the area, under what should be considered a temporary replacement (study) name.

Many people that bought and planted it probably still think it is the other plant that it was sold to them as.

    Bookmark   April 5, 2014 at 5:09PM
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jill_perry_gw(z9 CA)

Definitely not Sombreuil, either the real tea, which was never a climber, or the LCl. But it might be Safrano. See pictures here:
http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.5580
I don't think it's Reve d'Or- not full enough.
Jill

    Bookmark   April 5, 2014 at 6:41PM
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poorbutroserich(Nashville 7a)

Just an FYI Tuderte...I posted photos of my Reve now in bloom. Susan

    Bookmark   April 6, 2014 at 3:23PM
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tuderte(USDA 9a equiv.)

Thank you Susan - I'm sorry but I have only recently started posting on the forum - where do I look to see the photos?

Tricia

    Bookmark   April 6, 2014 at 3:27PM
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tuderte(USDA 9a equiv.)

Whoops ... sorry, Susan - I just noticed your earlier post with pics of your Reve d'Or - they are lovely blooms but to my eyes they seem more pink than my blooms - mine blooms are more apricot but there are several buds about to open so I'll keep taking photos of them ... Tricia

    Bookmark   April 6, 2014 at 3:31PM
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tuderte(USDA 9a equiv.)

Hi Jill,

I'm inclined to think that the rose may be Safrano - also, I'm thinking that cuttings of 'Sombreuil' and 'Safrano' might have been close together in the nursery and that a mix up could easily occur.

This photo was taken yesterday at sunset, which perhaps makes the 'golden tinge' more pronounced.

What do you think?

Tricia

    Bookmark   April 12, 2014 at 4:28PM
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tuderte(USDA 9a equiv.)

Hi again Jill,

Today it was raining at 6:45pm so the colour of the rose is quite different from the previous post. I thought it might be more 'true' to the actual rose colour.

Tricia

    Bookmark   April 12, 2014 at 4:33PM
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PortlandMysteryRose(8)

Tricia, your rose looks a lot like Safrano to me, too. Carol

    Bookmark   April 13, 2014 at 12:16AM
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tuderte(USDA 9a equiv.)

Just to let everyone know â¦.

I had a response to my email from the supplier of my 'Sombreuil' rose today. They agreed that it definitely was not Sombreuil and thought that it most likely was Lady Hillingdon, although they were unable to say whether it was the bush or climbing form (understandably).

They have very kindly offered to send me a replacement Sombreuil immediately.

If it is Lady Hillingdon I'm delighted because it was on my 'wish list' for the next order.

Tricia

    Bookmark   April 14, 2014 at 6:14PM
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poorbutroserich(Nashville 7a)

Gosh...my Safrano has never looked like that and my Lady died over the winter. Whatever it is it's lovely.
Susan

    Bookmark   April 14, 2014 at 8:23PM
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ingrid_vc so. CA zone 9

Susan, I have a little doubt about this being Lady Hillingdon since the color seems off and I never see the pink in either the bud or the flower. However the first flowers on a new rose can be anomalous so the nursery may be right. I do have my doubts, though.

Ingrid

    Bookmark   April 15, 2014 at 2:37PM
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PortlandMysteryRose(8)

Trica, the bottom pics look a LOT like a rose that I grew as Safrano, but when I rolled back up to the top of the post, those pics look less like it. Ingrid's and Susan's replies make me wonder about my rose. I don't grow many teas here in soggy Portland, OR, and although my memories of some roses back in TX are pretty darn solid, I'd absolutely take another tea rose grower's impressions over mine on this one (and many others). If I can manage to scan and load the photos of my Safrano, I will. The rose was at my old place and I used a film camera back in the day. I'm trying to remember where I purchased my rose. Something I've noticed: the colors of some of my tea roses tend to be a bit off from the usual colors, even when the roses have been verified with a good amount of certainty. Sometimes the petal count differs slightly for periods of time. Maybe the climate? Some of the tea rose experts may be able to speak to these characteristics. I imagine that most tea rose photos are taken in warmer, sunnier climates. However, even so, I wonder if my Safrano was Safrano. I don't want to lead you astray, so please take my remark as weak support. Who knows, maybe your post will help ID my "Safrano." :-) Carol

    Bookmark   April 15, 2014 at 4:43PM
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PortlandMysteryRose(8)

Oh, one thing that was quite distinctive and consistent about my Safrano--that typical dark red new growth. More consistent and more of it than, say, Duchesse de Brabant. The blossoms set against it were striking. Carol

    Bookmark   April 15, 2014 at 4:50PM
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tuderte(USDA 9a equiv.)

Hi Carol,

That's interesting because, if I were to take a photo of my rose at the moment it is practically ALL red growth!

Today our weather has taken a real tumble - 12 degrees top but with the North wind the wind chill factor makes it feel like 3 degrees. The wind has blown all the petals off the open roses. It's forecast to continue until Easter but, as the rose is in a pot I'll move it to a sheltered spot and take a photo of the new growth - perhaps you'll be able to tell me whether it resembles your Safrano?

Tricia

    Bookmark   April 15, 2014 at 5:14PM
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PortlandMysteryRose(8)

Tricia, in my experience, that pronounced plum-red new growth is very consistent with Safrano, but other teas exhibit the same to some degree. When you post another photo, I'll check it out, too. I'm having scanner issues but working on them. (Not a tech wizard.) Dave's Garden shows some photos of Safrano that look rather like yours. I can't paste the link because I keep hitting Garden Web's SPAM filter. Dave's may also have mislabeled roses on the page, of course. I just decided to Google Safrano and stumbled on those photos. I haven't looked at Help Me Find yet. Knowledgeable gardeners often post pics there, so you might give it a shot. 12 degrees?! Brrrrrrrrrrrr! Where exactly are you located in Italy? Carol

    Bookmark   April 15, 2014 at 6:44PM
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PortlandMysteryRose(8)

For the heck of it, I've been scouring my books with tea roses. When I opened my The Organic Rose Garden by Liz Druitt, her photo of an open flower (and bud) on p. 171 could almost be a repro of your middle photo of your open flower in the clay pot. I can't use the photo since it's Liz's, but maybe it's on the internet somewhere? I THINK my rose came from the Antique Rose Emporium in Texas. Liz Druitt's source is likely the same. Carol

    Bookmark   April 15, 2014 at 7:02PM
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tuderte(USDA 9a equiv.)

Hi Carol,

Here's a photo I've just taken of the rose - it's still blowing a gale here today so there may be a bit of 'movement' in the photo. The growth appears less 'red' today than it was yesterday but that's probably because it's a bit older?

I'm in Umbria in central Italy - when I said 12 degrees I was talking Celsius which isn't anywhere near as dramatic as Fahrenheit . 12F is almost minus 12C, whereas 12C is only 53F - probably quite balmy for some people.

I'd not heard of Liz Druitt's book - I see that it's available on Amazon so I'll see if it also comes up on The Book Depository (free shipping world wide) which would be a temptation too great to resist.

Cheers
Tricia

    Bookmark   April 17, 2014 at 3:54AM
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PortlandMysteryRose(8)

Tricia, of course! Celsius. Where is my brain? As your rose matures, it will be interesting to see the changes. The variety will probably become clearer. Please post pics so we can all follow the mystery as it unravels. Your rose is already lovely. Cheers back to you! Carol

    Bookmark   April 17, 2014 at 1:28PM
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tuderte(USDA 9a equiv.)

I thought this photo (taken at 5.30pm this afternoon) might help those who have Lady Hillingdon (bush) decide whether my rose resembles Lady Hillingdon (which the supplier believes it might be) in her fully open state.

Tricia

    Bookmark   April 18, 2014 at 3:31PM
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ingrid_vc so. CA zone 9

Tricia, I just went out to look at a bloom of Lady Hillingdon and there is quite a difference from your rose. For one thing, LH does have a darker, more apricot tinge, but is also has fewer petals and, while your petals are quilled and bow downward, my LH does just the opposite; the petals are quite rounded and bow inward, making more of a cupped shape. Those seem quite definitive differences, but hopefully other LH owners will also comment.

Ingrid

    Bookmark   April 18, 2014 at 6:53PM
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tuderte(USDA 9a equiv.)

Ingrid, thank you so much for checking your Lady Hillingdon.

I was just looking through my copy of 'Tea Roses - Old Roses for Warm Gardens' and I believe that the last photo I uploaded is very similar to the photo of Safrano at the top of page 178.

Also, the photo I posted last Saturday, Apr 12, at 16:28 is virtually identical to the large plate of Safrano on page 179 - except that my photo has a deeper colour because it was taken at 7:20pm the previous day as the setting sun was shining on the bloom.

When I read the 'Distinguishing Features' of Safrano on page 178 there are many similarities, however, I am such an amateur I have an entirely new vocabulary to learn before I could attempt to give a 'proper' description.

I'm very much leaning to the view that it could be Safrano - and I've checked that my supplier also has Safrano, so it is quite possible that, if they sort their cuttings alphabetically, it would be an easy error for them to make when putting the tag on the cutting.

Tricia

    Bookmark   April 19, 2014 at 12:09PM
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ingrid_vc so. CA zone 9

Tricia, it sounds as though you've pretty well nailed it as your rose being Safrano. I hope you're not too disappointed that this is not the rose you ordered, Sombreuil.

Ingrid

    Bookmark   April 19, 2014 at 12:20PM
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patricianat

Safrano, for sure.

    Bookmark   April 19, 2014 at 3:10PM
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tuderte(USDA 9a equiv.)

Ingrid, I'm not at all disappointed - my supplier is sending me a replacement Sombreuil and I'm delighted to have this really quite beautiful rose that I otherwise never have known.

Tricia

    Bookmark   April 19, 2014 at 4:00PM
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patricianat

Grow Rosette deLizy with your surprise rose and see how perfectly they will please you with their little delicate but simple blooms. But you must have Mlle Sombreuil.

    Bookmark   April 19, 2014 at 4:24PM
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tuderte(USDA 9a equiv.)

I've only recently discovered (from recent photos posted by Ingrid) Rosette Delizy - and I'm trying to locate someone here in Italy who stocks it (own root). I would love Mlle de Sombreuil but she seems even more elusive.
The search continues â¦

Tricia

    Bookmark   April 19, 2014 at 4:34PM
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trospero(8)

I very much doubt that is 'Lady Hillingdon' based on your most recent photo. Much more likely 'Safrano'.

    Bookmark   April 19, 2014 at 10:14PM
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