Your most vigorous pre-1940 HTs

poorbutroserich(Nashville 7a)June 9, 2014

Hi. I am really enjoying the few "vintage" HTs I have. I'm wondering which ones are vigorous and FRAGRANT.
I really like Pernetianas�but I have to have healthy and blowsy blooms.

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mad_gallica(zone 5 - eastern New York)

Lafter (Brownell 1943) is a New Dawn grandchild, so the breeding is rather different from a typical HT. It definitely wants to grow, unlike a lot of the group.

    Bookmark   June 9, 2014 at 10:47AM
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Pernetianas or look a likes if you can find it Hector Dean Vintage used to carry it. Doesn't bloom with any great frequency but worth it when it does!
Similar to it in form is Angels Mateu another Pernetiana with a very nice fragrance!

Madame Edouard Herriot it fries too fast unless it has a little shade

    Bookmark   June 9, 2014 at 12:08PM
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It's a Pernetiana, but I highly recommend Climbing Shot Silk, 1931. It is definitely very vigorous. It is also fragrant and repeats.

I was not as impressed with the shrub form, at least not on its own roots which was the way I grew it.


    Bookmark   June 9, 2014 at 1:37PM
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ingrid_vc so. CA zone 9

The supposedly first hybrid tea, La France, is still my favorite for its large and fragrant pink blooms and its ability to stand my hot and dry climate. Souvenir du President Carnot was magnificent last year and this year has been a great disappointment. I don't know whether the drought affected it, but I miss its blooms very much. Lady Alice Stanley and Emily have hardly grown so there's little I can say about them. Hoag House Cream is still very small and hasn't bloomed, but it at least looks healthy and I hope there will be at least one bloom soon. The early hybrid teas are not an easy bunch, and the drought has not helped them one bit.


    Bookmark   June 9, 2014 at 2:03PM
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I grow quite a few Pernetianas, and they are not the healthiest of roses usually (many rust here, and I would expect blackspot elsewhere). FWIW, in my zone, Gruss an Coburg and Sutter's Gold are probably the best. Condesa de Sastago is reasonably vigorous, but can rust heavily depending on weather. On most of them, blooms are fleeting, but on the other hand, the colors are great in hot weather...

I am not sure if all of these meet your cutoff date of introduction, but other reasonably vigorous older own-root HTs for me are

Miss Rowena Thom
Dr. O'Donel Brown (but still young)
Mrs. Wakefield Christie-Miller
'Hoag House Cream'
Barcelona/Francis Dubreuil
Sir Henry Segrave (but still young)
General Barthelot

I am not sure how many of these are stlll commercially available :(. If you can use a Vintage catalog for reference, with some exceptions (Snowbird is one), if the growth habit for a rose is 5 or above, you can reasonably expect vigor, 3 or below is a runt... Not a 100 percent accurate, but something to give you some idea of what to expect.


This post was edited by mashamcl on Mon, Jun 9, 14 at 14:41

    Bookmark   June 9, 2014 at 2:33PM
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Gregg at Vintage recommended Mme Jules Bouche (1911) when I wanted a white HT four years ago. It is a lusty grower about 6' feet tall now & packed with blooms. She gets a teeny tiny amount of BS which I just pick off. Gorgeous fragrance, she's my only HT as they seem to be BS magnets here & I garden organically here in coastal WA.
I'm new to this forum & find it incredibly helpful, you're such a wonderfully knowlegeable & supportive group.

    Bookmark   June 9, 2014 at 3:00PM
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I have an Aloha. It's from the 1940s so not sure if that's "vintage enough." It has been quite happy in our climate and it for the most part BS resistant. It is listed as a climber although with its extremely stiff canes I've seen quite a few pictures of it growning free standing. It does have a very nice fragrance to my nose, but I have to confess I don't have a very developed sense of smell.

    Bookmark   June 9, 2014 at 3:16PM
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Of the pre-1940 HTs here, Gruss an Coburg, Barcelona, and J. Otto Thilow are very robust plants on their own roots. Snowbird and Hoag House Cream are also good, though not quite as vigorous. Sir Henry Segrave has taken awhile to get going, but is now starting to look like something. Of these, Barcelona and Gruss an Coburg are the most fragrant to me, though they all have fragrance. Lundy's Lane Yellow is a found rose (no date), but is a vigorous Pernetiana type, too.

    Bookmark   June 9, 2014 at 3:17PM
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hoovb zone 9 sunset 23

'Madame Caroline Testout', (1890), Snowbird (1936), Barcelona (1932), Kaiserin Auguste Viktoria (1891). 'Crimson Glory' (1935), if you can find a good clone.

I push the date with 'Charlotte' Armstrong' (1940) which if you can get it VID is a great nodding, blowsy bloomer.

    Bookmark   June 9, 2014 at 3:33PM
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organic_tosca(9/Sunset 14)

Vintage Gardens had a Pernetiana called 'Golden Sastago', and I fell in love with the color nuance in the photo. Alas, I couldn't get it. I think it must be rather rare, as HelpMeFind doesn't have any photos of it. Perhaps it was not a strong rose, but I remember that Gregg wrote very poetically about it.
P.S. I, too, am attracted to the HTs from the Twenties and the Thirties.

    Bookmark   June 9, 2014 at 4:37PM
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Another vote for Madame Caroline Testout, La France, and Barcelona. All very beautiful old HTs! They grow well here. Barcelona is a smaller HT but vigorous in its way once it gets going. Carol

    Bookmark   June 9, 2014 at 6:52PM
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poorbutroserich(Nashville 7a)

Thanks you all! I don't really have a specific cut off date, just seems after 1940 the HTs are really different. I have Barcelona on fortuniana. One in the ground and one in a pot. Really love that rose!
I will check out all of your suggestions. The Vintage habit reference is ingenious.
Ingrid, I know you love La France. Have you grown Ophelia or Madame Butterfly?
Is Mrs. Dupont a dud?
I love President Herbert Hoover but it came as a band 4 years ago and has never left the 1G pot. I got one bloom this yearâ¦.
I've definitely had my eye on Shot Silk and its good to know the climber is a better choice.
I particularly like the Pedro Dot roses butâ¦
Maybe I should learn how to bud rosesâ¦..

    Bookmark   June 9, 2014 at 7:30PM
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'Countess Vandal' a Pernetiana from 1930, ( sells it on R. multiflora rootstock which adds vigor.
Most years, not this one though, also sell Shot Silk.
Mrs. Charles Bell' (own root) grew slowly the first 3 years then shot up to be 5+ feet tall by c. 6 feet wide with large buxom pink blooms that bless the garden with a sweet scent.
A 'Radiance ' (sport parent of Mrs. charles Bell) that I rooted last summer is the tallest plant ( nearly 2 feet tall) in the 2013-2014 Maiden bed and is starting its second flush of the year already this first week of June.
The white sport of La France, A. Guinesseau' is as vigorous as the sport parent.
Another vote for Gruss an Coberg.

I was fiercely prejudiced against the whole H.T. class until I volunteered at vintagegardens and met dozens of early H.T.s that had a grace and loveliness that I found lacking in the group of modern and ultra modern H.T.s.

I thought it was earlier, because of its' bloom shape but 'Dr. Brownell' is one of the most vigorous H.T. s I've ever met, it
-has large buff-yellow blooms, of a wide cupped shape that fit in well with pre-Peace H.T.s. No stiff high centers here.
-is as floriferous as a Tea rosebush.
-it's bushy! leaves galore making it a pretty plant in the garden even between flushes.
-moderate scent.
it shot up to be 5'+ by more than 6 feet wide,
here, and its' glossy leaves are bulletproof in its' no-spray garden. sells it on rootstock. photos on
I once considered it when I could not find 'Anna Olivier' in stock. those who know how much I prefer Teas over H.T.s might be shocked at that.


    Bookmark   June 9, 2014 at 8:18PM
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poorbutroserich(Nashville 7a)

Thanks you all! Found Dr Brownell and Countess Vandal at Hortico. Not sure I'm young enough to order any of them own root! LOL
And Lux, like you, I prefer Teas to HTs but those early ones are so beautiful! And they seem to glow!

    Bookmark   June 10, 2014 at 9:06PM
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I have only supporting votes to add to these comments. 'Mme. Jules Bouche' strongly shows its Tea parentage and is strong, fragrant, floriferous, and beautiful. 'Cl. Mme. Caroline Testout' is very tough and willing. I don't have any of them, but have heard very good things about 'Radiance' and its sports: I would grow them if I could find them. 'Barcelona' has been very tough in my garden, and no rose is more fragrant. 'Cl. Etoile de Hollande' is a fine variety, an extremely fragrant dark red. Someone here on the forum suggested that it's better grafted than on its own roots.

    Bookmark   June 11, 2014 at 2:14AM
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Campanula UK Z8

Madame Gregoire Staechelin - the most vigorous climbing HT I know (1927, Dot). A once blooming rose....but has the most amazing prolific heps in Autumn - looks almost oriental.

    Bookmark   June 11, 2014 at 8:46AM
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If you get a chance to take cuttings from someone's Cl Shot Silk, you will find that it roots easily and is quite vigorous on its own roots. I simply stuck several cuttings in the ground and a couple of the rooted. The young plant I am growing now is one of those rooted cuttings.

    Bookmark   June 11, 2014 at 9:29AM
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I'm extremely fond of CLIMBING LA FRANCE. This climbing sport of La France (Hybrid Tea, Jean-Baptiste André Guillot, 1867) was discovered in the United States by Peter Henderson in 1893. I like it better than the shrub because the plant has the habit of nodding its large buxom blossoms on thin stems. In a shrub this is a fault. BUT with a climber it is an asset because the blooms can be viewed head on from below. Trust me, with the light shining through the pink petals is almost too beautiful to be real. Add in intense fragrance with reliable repeat bloom and you get one of the best climbing roses that I've ever had the pleasure to grow.

I got my Climbing La France own root from Countryside Roses. It is growing against the eastern side of my house.

Image of LA FRANCE by labrea-7NYC.

Here is a link that might be useful: Climbing La France at HelpMeFind Roses

    Bookmark   June 11, 2014 at 10:44AM
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zjw727(Coastal Oregon Zone 8b)

Great thread- just what I've been thinking about! I love the old HT's and Pernetianas.
I'll play the broken record by giving another cheer for Gruss an Coburg. THIS is the rose that made me love this category. It's deliciously fragrant, the colors manage to be bright and modern AND subtle and elegant, and it IS vigorous on its own roots. it really wants to grow, and it loves to bloom. The growth is awkward though, like a tea rose- all sorts of odd gawky angles. The foliage isn't always perfect here, but at this point I've decided that it doesn't matter. It's never comes close to defoliating for me, and it's ALWAYS pushing out new growth, most of which stays clean (here). I really love it.

It's interesting to read that the climbing form of Shot Silk is a vigorous grower. I've had the bush form for well over a year, and it's a total runt. It still looks like a band- and a TINY one at that.

Something else in this category is Mrs. Sam McGredy. It's similar in color to Gruss an Coburg, but with coral red and melon shades. There is a HUGE plant of the climbing form growing at Rogue Valley Roses, and the minute I saw it I knew I had to have it. RV says that it's quite vigorous on it's own roots.

I also grow Mrs. Lovell Swisher, an HT from 1926 whose petals are a soft pink inside, with a slamon-colored reverse. It's really lovely, but I don't have high hopes for vigor...


    Bookmark   June 11, 2014 at 4:10PM
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So many good roses out there!

If you liked Dr. Brownell, you might also consider Break o'Day, a charming small rose by Brownell introduced in 1939.

    Bookmark   June 11, 2014 at 4:50PM
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I second Marsha's recommendation of Break o' Day. She is not very fragrant but she is quite a work horse: healthy, vigorous, floriferous and very winter hardy. I have her in my no spray garden and just love her. Could not recommend her enough.

BTW, Marsha, I just LOVE your rose blog. It keeps me going through the winter.

    Bookmark   June 11, 2014 at 6:08PM
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Here is a picture of Break o' Day

    Bookmark   June 11, 2014 at 6:16PM
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Here is another one: Madame Wagram. She is new to me this spring but she has not stopped blooming.

    Bookmark   June 11, 2014 at 6:18PM
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poorbutroserich(Nashville 7a)

Love all the suggestions! Guess I need to rip out my garden and start over. LOL. Gorgeous roses. Now if I can just find them.
Rosefolly: I don't know any "vintage" rose growers here in Nashville. It's a shame. No one to swap withâ¦

    Bookmark   June 11, 2014 at 9:05PM
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organic_tosca(9/Sunset 14)

There is a particular early HT that I didn't mention before because I doubt if it is available now (I got it from Vintage Gardens). Regulars on this forum are probably really, really tired of me posting about 'Betty', but I think it needs to be mentioned on this particular thread. It's a Hybrid Tea from 1905, very Tea-like in bloom and growth habit (angular). A very warm light pink with occasional streaks of cream. The opening bud is lovely, as is the fully open flower - then, just as you think it's about finished, it goes into a very blowsy mode with petaloids in the center (my favorite mode). Where I had it, the sun backlit it at certain times of the day, and then the center of the bloom had a golden glow. It didn't have a strong fragrance, but it was an exquisite one. I adored this rose, but Vintage had it from the old Korbel garden, and I don't know if anyone else sells it. I do know that it is alive and well in Australia, because one of the authors of the Australian "Old Roses for Warm Gardens" answered a query of mine on HelpMeFind with information about its history there (and she loves it too).

    Bookmark   June 12, 2014 at 5:51PM
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poorbutroserich(Nashville 7a)

Thanks Laura! I would love to find Betty. That is my mom's name. Sounds beautiful. I was able to order
Horace McFarland
Irish Fireflame
K. A. Viktoria
The Doctor
Dr. Brownell
I'm still actively seeking the others although many of them seem to no longer be in commerce.

    Bookmark   June 12, 2014 at 7:46PM
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Kippy(SoCal zone 10. Sunset Zone 24)

I am so happy to read about Betty here. Looking forward to her taking off

    Bookmark   June 13, 2014 at 12:37AM
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