Losing my Patience with Grandma's Hat...Close to Sp'ing It..

Desertgarden- Las Vegas, Z8b @ 2800 ft.June 11, 2014

Grandma's/Grandmother's Hat was received as a band and has been in my yard for almost a year now. It has been the lousiest grower thus far. It is healthy, but only has two thin canes that are smaller than a diameter of a pencil with groups of 7 leaves spaced about every 4 inches. It has no fullness whatsoever and has been outgrown by bands planted in my garden as late as November. Is this growth habit typical? I am so close to sp'ing this rose. Even the EVS that was on life support last year is now competing with it in terms of growth.

Please advise.

Lynn

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Kippy(SoCal zone 10. Sunset Zone 24)

I think a few people have said she has climates she does not like.

I was just looking at mine today and enjoying how big she is, she is taller now that Lady Ann Kidwell who has been the real star of all the bands til this season.

If the shovel comes...I have money for postage :)

    Bookmark   June 11, 2014 at 11:02PM
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jerijen(Zone 10)

I'm with Kippy -- if you sp her, don't donate her to the trash.

FWIW, we have more GH than I care to count -- ONE of the lot grew well, but flat refused to bloom for an entire year.

BUT honestly, I don't know anyone who has grown her in a desert setting. (I should give one to our friend in L.V.) Who knows? Maybe she doesn't like desert?

There's an ideal place for every rose.
I imagine that, likewise, there is a dreadful place for every rose.

    Bookmark   June 11, 2014 at 11:05PM
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AquaEyes 7a New Jersey

Until I read this post, I thought that, perhaps, my "Grandmother's Hat" was simply very immature when I received it last Spring. Most of last year's bands have produced at least one thick cane already, but GH still has the same two it had when it arrived. In any case, I don't think one year is enough time for me to shovel-prune anything.

These pics were taken May 30 this year. I wasn't expecting the Penstemon 'Dark Towers' which was planted just a month earlier to have already grown larger than it. Planted in the same bed just a few feet away, the China 'Napoleon' is growing like gangbusters.

:-)

~Christopher

    Bookmark   June 11, 2014 at 11:16PM
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Desertgarden- Las Vegas, Z8b @ 2800 ft.

I am guessing there are different schools of thought. If a rose does not take off in comparison to others of the same time, area, given the same treatment, then maybe it was a weak plant to begin with or the climate, soil, etc. Does not provide what the plant requires to be happy and flourish.

Another school of thought is the belief in "late bloomers". That the rose is on its own schedule and will take off according to its own clock .

I have sworn off bands unless it is a rose I covet and that is the only way I can get it . I lack the patience and desire to coddle unless it is absolutely necessary.

I really wanted this rose but will not spend my time, money and energy on something with a high probability of being a dud in my climate when so many roses thrive.

If it does not get its act together by October...off to Camarillo it goes. It would serve me right as this rose was initially purchased for my sister-in-law and I kept it. I took a Julia Child to her instead.

Lynn

    Bookmark   June 11, 2014 at 11:49PM
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trospero(8)

One year?? Thats all a rose gets to prove its worth in your garden -- one year? If I had taken that approach to evaluating my 2000+ roses, most of my best plants would not have had a whisper of a chance.

At this very moment I have an 8 x 8 foot 'Konigen von Danemark' that is now 13 years old and by the end of its cycle, will have produced several hundred magnificent blooms. That plant took four years to start looking like it had any intention of surviving, let alone morphing into the specimen it is today.

    Bookmark   June 12, 2014 at 10:06AM
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Desertgarden- Las Vegas, Z8b @ 2800 ft.

Yep, one year and an extra 5 months (October). I am not expecting much other than a performance that is closer to plants that have entered my garden and struggled, those that have only been here for a handful of months, and those arriving around the same time, in the same area receiving the same treatment.

I know that I lack some patience, that is why I have basically sworn off bands and will not waste time when there is a possibility that in 4 years or so we could relocate (move back to California). If a plant is showing signs that it is unhappy with what I can offer in my garden, I encourage travel and provide free transportation to a new home.

Lynn

    Bookmark   June 12, 2014 at 11:08AM
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trospero(8)

From the opening post: "Grandma's/Grandmother's Hat was received as a band and has been in my yard for almost a year now."

(emphasis mine)

    Bookmark   June 12, 2014 at 11:15AM
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AquaEyes 7a New Jersey

She may have meant that it's almost a year since it was planted in the ground, being babied in a pot before then.

I understand your reason for wanting things to move along in case you, yourself, have to "move along." If you need "instant satisfaction" then you'd be better off sticking to grafted plants, or own-root plants at least gallon-sized. Many of my bands grew very well, but a handful are lagging behind.

:-)

~Christopher

    Bookmark   June 12, 2014 at 11:44AM
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jerijen(Zone 10)

Trospero and Christopher are right.

If I gave up roses after a year, I'd likely have no roses at all. In fact, because ALL of our roses have to be planted in squat pots in the ground (gophers) they likely take longer here than they do in most places. Our overall cool climate probably has an effect, as well.

I actually enjoy watching the little plants slowly evolve into something wonderful.

Gardening with perennial plants likely isn't a happy situation for impatient gardeners. Even an artichoke plant needs a year or two in the ground, before it matures and bears.

    Bookmark   June 12, 2014 at 12:16PM
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Desertgarden- Las Vegas, Z8b @ 2800 ft.

Jerijen,

Gophers, I am glad that isn't an issue here, the soil and the heat six weeks from about July 1st onward keeps me on my toes.

A couple of weeks or so will mark the time since Grandmothers' Hat has been planted in my yard. So, just shy of a year in the ground.

I am a very analytical person, but realistically know that so much in gardening can move outside of pre-conceived parameters. Despite that, there's a "when to say when" based upon the standards we set in our gardening conditions. I've been growing roses here for over 14 years, at one point 150+ (primarily grafted), but must admit that this is the first year that I "in earnest" committed to the patience required for bands. Most have performed very well and nothing died last summer.

I re-designed my yard last year which included the addition of numerous bands and 1 gallon own root. G.H. is the ONLY one that really is not performing. Even Paul Neyron is growing like mad, as if it was was waiting for heat. I've considered digging up G.H. and repotting this Fall. The problem is, I would quickly place a rose in the large space allotted for G.H. If it should improve while in the pot, I will have no where to plant it on my suburban lot. It would be re-homed anyway.

O.T. ....Christopher, my husband and I are both California natives and all of our family resides there. It never made financial sense for us to sell our home and relocate to CA, but there could be an opportunity in the near future or we could just remain here. I am placing more roses in pots just in case (R.U's recent sale ) :)

This post was edited by desertgarden561 on Thu, Jun 12, 14 at 13:20

    Bookmark   June 12, 2014 at 1:11PM
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ingrid_vc so. CA zone 9

Lynn, I think you know how wonderful my situation is for roses, and I planted GH in a particularly hot and unfriendly location because I had no other place at the time. For me this rose took off like gangbusters and grew like a weed. Unfortunately the blooms fried like nobody's business and I had to give it up, and planted Le Vesuve there instead, which worked out very well. I'm surprised you didn't have similar results although I'm sure soil and other considerations might explain it. This is what makes growing roses in a challenging climate so fascinating and yet also sometimes so frustrating.

Ingrid

    Bookmark   June 12, 2014 at 1:18PM
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Desertgarden- Las Vegas, Z8b @ 2800 ft.

Ingrid,

I did the opposite. I planted G.H. In a location where it receives afternoon shade. It thrives for Jerijen and it doesn't get that hot at all there .... I believe. Go figure.....that's gardening!

Lynn

    Bookmark   June 12, 2014 at 4:30PM
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mariannese

I realize that roses may grow much quicker in a warm climate compared to my northern one but I never give a rose less than four years, sometimes up to seven years and patience has paid for me. My husband remarked today that von Scharnhorst, planted in 2005 and severely hurt by a fox digging for bone meal soon after planting, has finally taken off.

    Bookmark   June 12, 2014 at 5:05PM
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labrea_gw

I've had some roses take 2 to 3 ears to look like anything what will you put in it's place if you get rid of it.!

    Bookmark   June 12, 2014 at 6:26PM
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erasmus_gw

I have a very nice sized, vigorous GH plant in a very large pot. I propagated it and planted a gallon sized one in the ground in a very sunny, hot location. It did not thrive. I am currently trying another gallon sized one in another tough location just to see what it'll do. I suspect that it is like many other roses and will do better if it is potted up until it is a nice sized 3 or 5 gallon plant before being planted in the ground. Some roses can take off when planted in the ground as almost a newly rooted cutting. It won't work for others. But nobody can tell you that you should want to work with it and find the best growing routine for that particular plant. You might try something different if you are drawn to that rose. I'd dig it up , pot it up, and grow it on. Pretty often a rose that is not thriving will respond to that and go on to be a good plant.

    Bookmark   June 12, 2014 at 7:16PM
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bellegallica_zone9(9)

FWIW, Grandmother's Hat is turning out to be a slow poke for me, too. I'm in hot and humid conditions.

I'm not trying to sway your opinion either way, just giving some neutral information.

I'm sure you'll make the right decision for you and your garden.

    Bookmark   June 12, 2014 at 7:20PM
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Desertgarden- Las Vegas, Z8b @ 2800 ft.

I'm not looking for this rose to be mature at this point, not even close. It should however be showing signs that something is happening and it is actually heading down the path. Grandmother's hat is not "progressing" at a satisfactory pace. I have the same two whispy canes that existed when I received it, they are slightly longer and the leaves on the two canes are very sparse. That's it....it has been out done by everything I own including what was the saddest looking EVS bands ever.

I have looked for potential replacements if it doesn't shape up by Fall. Aunt Margy's rose is on the short list I have compiled thus far,

Lynn

    Bookmark   June 12, 2014 at 7:32PM
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Kippy(SoCal zone 10. Sunset Zone 24)

Lynn

I totally get how hard it is to wait....lol Stop laughing Jeri and Kim. :)

I planted the backyard in big 5g pots and lot that I got my instant gratification from them. I would not change that at all. Mom loves going out there and enjoying all of those big roses. The new bands are my roses. It is hard to wait on them to grow up, but I know that they are growing for the most part. Some do seem to really grow like mad and others not so much. It seems like those ones that are stalled are the ones I check on the most. Lady Hillingdon and Crepuscule. I think they might do better if I did not worry about them so much and trusted that eventually they grow because they have not died.

    Bookmark   June 12, 2014 at 11:54PM
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Desertgarden- Las Vegas, Z8b @ 2800 ft.

Kippy-the-hippy,

I think it would be easier to make that kind of time investment and wait and wait for a bush to start showing significant growth if I knew that I would be residing here, in this state, after 4 years, but there is a good degree of uncertainty. The majority of my roses are grafted, which have been no fuss for me, pretty tried and true for my climate, especially when the temperature hits the 120's, but everything I have wanted is not available grafted.
Lynn

    Bookmark   June 13, 2014 at 1:12AM
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roseseek

Me? Laughing at you, Kippy? Would "I" do that to you? hehehe Nope, I'm not laughing. We've all waited for glacially slow plants to mature. I've shovel pruned my share, believe me. Speaking of which, want a 5 gal Aptos to add to your prickly wall, Kippy? Kim

    Bookmark   June 13, 2014 at 2:50AM
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Kippy(SoCal zone 10. Sunset Zone 24)

Kim,

I would LOVE an Aptos, it has been on my wish list. I went to a HS right by...Aptos, (They could never decide if it was Watsonville, La Selva Beach or Aptos, I think it all decided which route you where headed what town they called it)

    Bookmark   June 13, 2014 at 10:47AM
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true_blue(Mtl Can Zone 4b)

desertgarden561, maybe the rose is testing you to see if you're worthy of it?!

I know you're impatient, I know I am, I have to control the urge of prying and checking my plants every day :-)

In my experience, gardening is the art of learning patience. I've noticed that plants that I ignore, grow best.

And those that test my patience, surprise me, when I learn to let them be. And then I feel humbled and thankful for being patient.

It is a sort of a spiritual practice for me and learning the art of letting go....

So maybe you need to ignore it too....

    Bookmark   June 13, 2014 at 11:47AM
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paola_b

And where one could possibly find "Grandmother's Hat"?

    Bookmark   October 16, 2014 at 9:05PM
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jerijen(Zone 10)

Paola -- Rogue Valley Roses carries it, and so does Burlington Rose Nursery.

NOTE: Neither will have it all the time. You may have to go on a waiting list.

There will PROBABLY be some available at the April Open Garden and Rose Sale, in the Sacramento City Cemetery, next spring.

It is sad, but true, that we have now lost so many great Old Rose specialist nurseries that we simply no longer have easy access to many wonderful, less common, roses.

Jeri

    Bookmark   October 16, 2014 at 9:42PM
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roseseek

Try Burlington Roses as she's sold it for years. Annie's Annuals listed it for a long time and may still have it available. Help Me Find-Roses offers a list of vendors who have listed it, also. Kim

    Bookmark   October 16, 2014 at 9:42PM
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paola_b

Thank you so much, Jeri. I was hoping there is some "secret" source in addition to these two nurseries.
She is a beauty.
Love reading you - alwaysð¹
Paola

    Bookmark   October 16, 2014 at 10:12PM
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jerijen(Zone 10)

PAOLA -- Where are you located?

Jeri

    Bookmark   October 16, 2014 at 10:53PM
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paola_b

I am in Del Mar.

    Bookmark   October 17, 2014 at 12:22AM
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Brittie - La Porte, TX 9a

I got mine from Long Ago Roses, and it is currently available from Rose Petals Nursery.

This post was edited by brittie on Fri, Oct 17, 14 at 13:08

    Bookmark   October 17, 2014 at 11:19AM
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jerijen(Zone 10)

Paola -- GramHat should be terrific in your conditions. If I should have a couple of extras, as we move some roses around here, I'll let you know.

I have noticed, btw, that certain of my roses were really hit hard by the spring/summer/fall series of heatwaves -- others actually loved it.

The Polyantha, 'Sunshine' began to grow vigorously -- something it had never done for me. And 'Crepuscule' morphed from 90-lb weakling to the Charles Atlas of roses. "Benny Lopez" doubled in size, and "Old Town Novato pushed up three new basal canes.

By contrast, "Grandmother's Hat" was hit hard, as was its pale sport, 'Tina Marie.' Several plants lost all, or most, of their foliage.

So, I'm thinking, maybe "GramHat" doesn't LIKE 100-degree temperatures any more than I do.

Jeri

    Bookmark   October 17, 2014 at 12:17PM
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roseseek

Based upon how GramHat performed in Newhall, performs in Valencia and here, I'd suspect yours did what they did in response to the extremes they encountered exceeding the water they received, and how "hard" they were, Jeri. The hardest hit of all the roses I deal with at home and elsewhere, have been those receiving greater reflected/radiated heat from walls, walks, windows, drives, and in pots, etc.; those whose water levels were sufficient for the lower temps but not for the sudden extremes; basically those whose resources and conditions were below or at the threshold for enduring the spikes and which were pushed over that threshold by the conditions they endured.

Mine is against a white vinyl fence. Were it not for the huge Kona hibiscus which provides it partial shade from the east, it would be in full, southern exposure. The photinia hedge on the other side of the fence has grown tremendously since the rose was planted and it increasingly shows stress from the competition. The spikes it endured several years ago, before I began increasing its water, fried the plant nearly past its tipping point. Once I began supplying additional water, it recovered. I expected the issue this time and made sure it received additional water. It worked. I'm still using one quarter of the water I am allotted due to the size of the lot and being in an "extreme heat, extreme fire danger" area. Kim

    Bookmark   October 17, 2014 at 1:24PM
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jerijen(Zone 10)

Yes, Kim --

Likewise, we've been able to grow these roses in these locations for many years, because our "normal" temperatures are markedly lower than 'most everywhere further inland.

THIS year, we have set record after record after record for high temperatures -- and have simultaneously been forced to cut back on water. The roses have responded predictably.

Another example of this is my formerly-huge Louis Philippe.

He grows up against a small retaining wall, in a location where several other roses failed, due to reflected heat. Louis Philippe, however, has prospered there for several years, growing larger and larger -- his ample foliage has protected him.

Not THIS year! During the worst of the heat, he suffered immense dieback.

We'll cut off the dead canes, and I think he will grow back during winter (tho perhaps not to his former dimensions). I am afraid, though, that the whole thing will be repeated over and over in coming hot summers.

Jeri

    Bookmark   October 17, 2014 at 2:31PM
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roseseek

No doubt, unfortunately. Growing any plants, other than true heat lovers such as cacti, and even those scald under the worst conditions, will increasingly be the only alternative for sunny, not, reflective/radiated positions. The best performers here are those tucked under the black walnut, where they don't suffer as greatly from heat and too intense sunlight, but they do complain about the walnut litter and roots. Gardening here is increasingly a lose-lose proposition. Kim

    Bookmark   October 17, 2014 at 2:43PM
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jerijen(Zone 10)

Yeah -- It is.

Now, THIS Grandmother's Hat is one of the happiest roses on the place. It grows under a monstrous seedling avocado tree.

Jeri

    Bookmark   October 17, 2014 at 4:36PM
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rosefolly

Lynn, it is your rose, and your garden, and you get to decide.

On the whole I would recommend allowing another year (or two) before making that decision, but if you have something else you'd rather grow in that space, go for it.

If it were not available elsewhere, I would urge you to pass it along if you did not want it yourself, but that is not the case. It can be sourced elsewhere, even if sometimes with a bit of effort.

Rosefolly

    Bookmark   October 18, 2014 at 9:01PM
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alameda/zone 8

I got my GH for $2 at Chamblees sale bin 5+ years ago in a 1 gallon pot. It gets full sun until 2pm, then afternoon shade. It is tall, lanky and sure doesn't look like Jeri's photo, but it blooms fairly regularly and is healthy - just not real bushy, but then - I haven't fed it a lot. I love it because it smells good, and I enjoy seeing things grow and mature. Not in a hurry - as long as it stays healthy, it can dawdle along as it likes, plus its not an easy rose to find. My roses don't all have to look like showstoppers - I just enjoy seeing the process of them growing. I am sure in years to come, it will continue to grow and fill out - I am patient and hope I have the years to watch it grow.
Judith

    Bookmark   October 19, 2014 at 5:19PM
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roseseek

Hi Judith! Grandmother's Hat can be grown as a climber or pruned to encourage her to bush. If you pruned yours down a bit, she'd probably be more inclinded to bush out. I grow mine in direct sun in a very hot spot and she's tall but bushy. I have Larry Daniels in a client's garden where it receives less ful sun and it is bushy, but also rather elongated trying to reach for the sun. When I prune him shorter, he bushes out better. Kim

    Bookmark   October 19, 2014 at 7:51PM
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paola_b

Thank you all. I think that GH would be just perfect near my 7ft cement wall with 6 hrs. of direct morning sun. Surely my next door neighbors will be happy to see eventually a glimpse of her too.
I'll be waiting patiently for a chance to purchase a good looking plantð¹

Paola

    Bookmark   October 19, 2014 at 8:55PM
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ingrid_vc so. CA zone 9

This thread pretty well explains why my roses aren't doing well now. My Grandmother's Hat that about four years ago was growing like gangbusters in a full-sun location but which I didn't keep because the blooms fried almost immediately would probably die or at least deteriorate badly in the same location now unless it received lots of extra water. The increased temperatures, drought and solar radiation have made it very difficult to grow ANYTHING in areas where there is no shade. Fortunately my house provides afternoon shade in the front garden and therein lies my hope of still being able to grow at least some roses.

Ingrid

    Bookmark   October 19, 2014 at 9:14PM
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jerijen(Zone 10)

I told my new neighbors today that I think the "all day sun" rule is now no longer valid. Not in our area, anyhow. Roses that have afternoon shade may be a better situation to aim for ... and look again at how well one of our Gramhats does under the canopy of a huge tree.

I think we're moving into a time when much of our south-facing hillside is a poor choice for many plants. And accordingly, we will have far fewer roses down there.

    Bookmark   October 19, 2014 at 9:21PM
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alameda/zone 8

Kim, is GH easy or hard to root? I don't mind it being lanky but think I would like to see it bush a bit more. But I cant stand the thought of trimming it and not trying to root the cuttings! Havent done much rooting, how would you suggest doing it [i.e. - how do you do it?] Thanks so much!
Judith

    Bookmark   October 19, 2014 at 10:10PM
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roseseek

She's pretty easy to root in my experience. I've also had her sucker a little as well as come back from roots left in the ground when a canned plant had to be moved after sitting on one place too long. The only way I can root roses in these conditions is using my wrapping method as outlined on my blog (linked below). It's not quite the right time of the year here, but you could try it any time, any where to see if some of the variables might align and work. If you start where the link goes and read forward, you can glean all the experiences and discoveries since. Good luck! Kim

Here is a link that might be useful: Wrapping cuttings.

    Bookmark   October 19, 2014 at 10:18PM
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jerijen(Zone 10)

I don't think it's the EASIEST, but middle-of-the-road decent. If you have cuttings, give it a go. See the link below to "Articles" on the Gold Coast Heritage Roses Group website. There are multiple articles on various methods.

The big plant shown (above) growing under a tree is the first GramHat we planted here -- more than 20 years ago.

For the first few years, we pruned it -- so it took on this nice bushy habit. Probably haven't pruned it now for a good 15 years, so it is - er -- enormous.

This same plant is on a bit of a hill, and it has suckered to produce many other plants -- though we don't see GH sucker hugely, in other locations.

Jeri

Here is a link that might be useful: Rooting Roses -- articles on Gold Coast Heritage Roses Group Site

    Bookmark   October 19, 2014 at 10:46PM
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rosefolly

I have rooted GH a number of times and I'm not a highly skilled propagator. At pruning time I just stick decent cuttings into damp, shady soil, generally beneath the parent plant. Several of them usually will strike even when I do not bother with rooting hormone.

Rosefolly

    Bookmark   October 20, 2014 at 12:33AM
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