Rose ID - Rambler?

TWG1572July 13, 2014

I had originally posted in the "Name this Rose Forum" but it was also suggested that I cross-post here since this is where many of the old rose experts hang out.

My wife's great aunt had a rose in her yard for many, many years. She recently passed, and before the house was sold I was given the task of getting a cutting to pass the rose on to her family. (I have the greenest thumb in the family.....) I was able to successfully get one rooted, and have since gotten several more cuttings from that plant rooted and sent out to my wife's family members. I'd love to be able to put a name to this rose, just so we know what it is. Here's some info on the rose.

The canes seem to get about 7-8 foot long, and are quite floppy. It got extremely large and bushy in her yard, I've kept it cut back pretty heavily. Last fall I took it to three canes since I switched trellises. Two lived, which are the ones you see flowering.

The pictures portray it as a bit more of a hot pink than it is, but it's not a cherry red. I have some red double knockouts close to it, and the color is entirely different.

There isn't really any scent associated with the flowers.

It is very prone to mildew/blackspot. Especially once it flowers. The leaves are now dusty white, with spots on them. (the pictures were taken at the end of June)

One variety that was mentioned in my other thread was Excelsia. There's a lot about the rose that seems like it might fit that family, but things that don't quite fit (the color for one)

I'd appreciate any thoughts you have!

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TWG1572

A closeup of the flowers

    Bookmark   July 13, 2014 at 10:00AM
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TWG1572

And the leaves

    Bookmark   July 13, 2014 at 10:01AM
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jerijen(Zone 10)

Check out 'Dorothy Perkins,' on HelpMeFind Roses (See link).

Here is a link that might be useful: 'Dorothy Perkins' at HelpMeFind

    Bookmark   July 13, 2014 at 2:03PM
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comtessedelacouche (10b S.Australia: hotdryMedclimate)

Could it be Crimson Rambler (aka Turner's Crimson Rambler - UK name)? There was a thread on this forum recently that included discussion of the difference between Excelsa and CR. Your rose appears to have the bristly peduncles of CR. I see there was some discussion on your post on the other forum re the precise colour, but I note the colours of both seem to photograph in a wide range of red/purpley/crimson tones. I also note there's an Super Excelsa (or some such name) variant that may be more on the purpley side, like yours appears to be. However, I think those bristly peduncles may push it to being CR, along with CR being said in all references to be particularly mildew prone, while being tough enough to survive it. It is also said to be unscented, unlike Excelsa. It was introduced in the UK, and a couple of years later into the US, in the 1st decade of the 20th Century. Sorry I don't know how to post a link, but the thread was started around July 2nd by margot, and entitled 'My Crimson Rambler'. :-)

    Bookmark   July 13, 2014 at 2:33PM
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rosefolly

I've posted a link to photos of Crimson Rambler on HMF so you can compare for yourself. It certainly seems like a strong candidate.

Rosefolly

Here is a link that might be useful: Crimson Ramblers on HelpMeFind

    Bookmark   July 13, 2014 at 3:01PM
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boncrow66

I can't help out with a ID but I think it is beautiful. It reminds me of my Seven Sisters except that your blooms are much bigger than the blooms on my Seven Sisters.

    Bookmark   July 13, 2014 at 3:13PM
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TWG1572

jerijen - I'd considered Dorothy Perkins, but everything I read indicates that rose has a strong fragrance. This rose doesn't have a fragrance.

"bristly peduncles" there's a phrase I would have never known even existed before today... :) I've attached a pic I took today. I see thorns on the pedicel, but not the peduncle. But to be honest, I don't really know my peduncle from my pedicel beyond what google tells me...

    Bookmark   July 13, 2014 at 4:02PM
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CapeRoses(6B)

It can be hard enough to identify some of these ramblers in person; doing so from photos is a frustrating excercise. The color in the photos is wrong for 'Excelsa' but I know how difficult it is for cameras to get shades of red correct and we need to take that into account. I think it is safe to rule out 'Dorothy Perkins' which is more of a "bubble gum" pink. I think we can also rule out 'Turner's Crimson Rambler' as the pedicels on this rose have a scattering of bristles while TCM looks like a mini bottle brush.

So from the pedicles it appears to be 'Excelsa'. The color of 'Excelsa' is variable. Flowers can start out bright red and open fully to show a tiny ring of stamens. As the plant continues to flower though, the color changes to more of a "dusty" pink and the flowers don't open completely.

In this photo of 'Excelsa' note the scattering of glandular bristles on the pedicel but also notice that the reverse of the guard petals is almost white towards the receptacle. You can also check to see if there is a single thorn at the base of the peduncle. 'Dorothy Perkins', for instance, has a double thorn there.

So, as I have said it can be difficult to identify some of these old ramblers, but with the attention to some of the small details it can become easier. This is probably 'Excelsa' although the color in the 'close up of flowers' photo is incorrect.

    Bookmark   July 13, 2014 at 4:53PM
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CapeRoses(6B)

Apparently you posted while I was still composing my previous post. So I have to say that those double thorns would lead me to believe that this may not be 'Excelsa'. I would say that it needs further study.

BTW: mailing cuttings is not hard and I do it almost every year. Take cuttings of a stem that has flowered or an older stem with several laterals on it that have flowered. Wrap them in a damp paper towel and put them in a gallon freezer bag. Send them priority mail.

    Bookmark   July 13, 2014 at 5:02PM
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malcolm_manners

I would have said 'Excelsa' (="Red Dorothy Perkins"). I see we suddenly have two threads mentioning "Seven Sisters" going. Just to clarify: Most parts of the USA seem to have a rose that locals call "Seven Sisters." Nearly all of them have the wrong rose -- De La Grifferaie or Russelliana in the North, Tausendschoen, Dorothy Perkins, or Excelsa (Red Dorothy Perkins) in the South, or, often, just "the rose that Grandma grew and we've always called it that." The "real," original 'Seven Sisters' is Rosa multiflora platyphylla, as painted by Redoute. It is marginally cold-hardy to Zone 7, very strictly once-flowering, a moderate climber. Its foliage is unique, and probably the easiest way to determine whether you've got the "real thing." Leaves are large, with the leaflets convex-shaped (like the top half of a pillow) rather than lying flat. Also, the leaves are noticeably fuzzy on their upper surface, not smooth or shiny. Stipules are quite fringed, as in all multiflora types. The real thing also tends to make highly zig-zagged stems. So I agree that the rose pictured in this thread is not the "real" 'Seven Sisters'. I don't grow Excelsa, so don't know about the lack-of-fragrance thing.

    Bookmark   July 13, 2014 at 5:18PM
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comtessedelacouche (10b S.Australia: hotdryMedclimate)

Sorry, last decade of 19th Century - don't know where I got the other date from. Re. colour again, a reference to CR in a Gertrude Jekyll article indicated it had a 'purple taint' - seen as a fault at the time, even though she was generally enthusiastic about it. She said it was 'improved' if you looked at it with the light behind it. It was apparently the reddest climber yet seen at the time, and thus quickly became hugely popular and influential in breeding, so quite an interesting back-story if this does turn out to be your family rose, TWG. Trospero seemed very sure that ANY suggestion of purple ruled out Excelsa and that the colour of DP wasn't right either - I don't know anything about that, but one other point that might help - check out the stipules. On the first page of pix for Crimson Rambler on HelpMeFind, when you go to Photos, there's an old black & white photo of them (the feathery outgrowths on either side of the leaf stem where it meets the main stem). On closer inspection, I do believe I see identical stipules in your third pic!! There's also another photo of them further on in HMF's Photos with someone's hand displaying them. I don't know if DP or Ex or any other possible candidates have these, perhaps someone else knows? Thanks, Rosefolly for putting in that link; I am such a techno-dumdum.... Boncrow, one of the many other names for CR was Ten Sisters (in Chinese), I don't know why. TWG, did you manage to find that earlier thread? There were terrific photos on there of CR and Ex... Oh yes, and Super Excelsa I now see was a 1986 introduction, so I guess that would definitely rule it out as your wife's great-aunt's rose (am trying desperately to do the maths, but the brain is not being very cooperative at the moment...)? :-) :-) Comtesse

    Bookmark   July 13, 2014 at 5:21PM
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comtessedelacouche (10b S.Australia: hotdryMedclimate)

Oh blimey, got me pedicels an' peduncles mixed up, what a silly billy....You are quite right, the bristles are on the pedicels, NOT the peduncles, TWG! My last post crossed with the previous four. All very interesting. CapeRoses, I was looking at TWG's 3rd pic where the pedicels look much more like those in the close-up on HMF; on the more recent one of TWG's with the spent bloom they have lost that distinctly red colour; as for the degree of bristliness, from the earlier pic they seem to me to be maybe somewhere in between those in your Excelsa pic and those on the HMF Crimson Rambler pic?? - though, as you say, it can be awfully tricky comparing individual photographs... Interesting about those double thorns, though; I can't see if CR/TCR has these or not from any of the photos. Does anyone here actually grow it? Margot? Neroseman?

    Bookmark   July 13, 2014 at 7:22PM
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CapeRoses(6B)

'Chevy Chase'

It took me a while, but the description above seems to indicate that the rose is the rare 'Chevy Chase' released into commerce in 1939 by Hansen. It is a fine rose and well worth preserving.

Here is a link that might be useful: 'Chevy Chase' on HMF

    Bookmark   July 14, 2014 at 10:37AM
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rosefolly

I grew Chevy Chase for years and I am confident this is not the rose TWG1572 has. Chevy Chase is always an unmistakable deeply saturated cherry red color that catches the eye from across the room or the garden. Not only is the color wrong, but also Chevy Chase grows with a large number of long canes all coming from a central crown, easily trained into a fan. Very thorny, too. I am including a picture so that you can see the difference. The color in the photo below is just a bit pinker than the color in real life, though it is close. There is no purple undertone. Also, unlike TWG1572's rose, Chevy Chase was not prone to mildew in my garden where mildew is a frequent problem. I can't address the blackspot issue accurately because blackspot pressure is low here.

Chevy Chase

Rosefolly

This post was edited by rosefolly on Mon, Jul 14, 14 at 13:19

    Bookmark   July 14, 2014 at 1:14PM
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Dublin29

Could it be Minnehaha ? Or is it too red. Don't think it's excelsa. Had that one a lifetime & it just doesn't look exactly right to me. Haven't seen Minnehaha except on pictures ? Not knowledgeable to judge on specifics. But I'll compare the detail with my currently flowering excelsa

    Bookmark   July 14, 2014 at 4:21PM
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CapeRoses(6B)

Thanks, Rosefolly, I think you are correct that I jumped to a conclusion and that this needs further study. I checked my Chevy Chase and have to agree that the leaves are wrong, the stipules are not fringed and my plant from Vintage Gardens has two tiny thorns on the leaf stem that should help with the identification. I absolutely agree that CC has a very distinctive red that has a kind of fluorescence to it.

    Bookmark   July 15, 2014 at 1:28PM
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hartwood

These red ramblers are all mixed up in commerce. Is it Chevy Chase, Red Dorothy Perkins, Excelsa, Crimson Showers, or ....

FWIW, it looks a lot like a red sport of a feral rose that grows near my house. The pink version is rampant in wild-formerly-cultivated areas all over this part of the country, and it sports to white and/or red with regularity. One way to ID Dorothy Perkins and her sports in our area is to wait and see how badly the rose mildews ... here, mildew in summer is VERY uncommon except on lilacs, peonies and Dorothy Perkins and her sports.

Here is a link that might be useful: Blog post with photos of feral roses.

    Bookmark   July 21, 2014 at 7:29AM
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vmr423(Zone 8b, SC)

I will just mention that at least one HMF photo of 'Arcadia' seems to show a double-thorn. I also think the flowers look similar, but dunno about peduncles and pedicels...?

No mention of fragrance. Rose color in all these photos is hard to judge.

Whatever the name, though, it really is a nice-looking rose...

Good luck,
Virginia

Here is a link that might be useful: HMF photos of 'Arcadia'

    Bookmark   July 21, 2014 at 8:36PM
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TWG1572

OP here again. I've been watching this thread, and appreciate all the thoughts people have had. Next year, I'll take some pictures of the flowers next to a color wheel or something that will allow a more accurate reference. In the meantime, IâÂÂll try and do some more reading up on roses. What I think I know from this thread.

My Rose: Hot pink/red color, no scent, blooms once, mildews heavily after bloom, double thorns, bristly pedicil, smooth peduncle.

Possible:
Excelsia: Color seems close, but double thorns may rule it out.
Arcadia

Ruled Out:
Crimson Rambler: Not enough bristles on pedicel. Color seems a bit too light.
Dorothy Perkins: fragrant rose, pink is too light.
Chevy Chase: Deep saturated red color. Not prone to mildew. Wrong leaves, stipules, and thorns.
Minnehaha: Seems too pink.

Does this pretty well sum it up? If so, IâÂÂll try and dig a bit deeper on the roses left on the âÂÂpossibleâ list.

Thanks to everyone for their help and input! This has been an interesting journey.

    Bookmark   July 23, 2014 at 3:16PM
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