Is this plant saying "Too Much Light, please!!"???...

Begonia2005(7)October 5, 2012

One of the plants I have had for a month+ (a sturdy, large Optimara NOID from Pikes with deep purple/blue blooms) has started to have a couple of leaves that show some yellow spots as if the green was peeled off. The plant is also keeping the leaves downwards instead of parallel to the table. Pictures attached.

I should note that what you see are not droopy, soft leaves altough they might look like that in the picture. The leaves do well and they are quite hard - it's just that they point downwards.

The plant has been sitting under a CFL spiral bulb of 26w (equivalent of a 100W incandescent) placed in a decorative lamp and kept about 8-12 inches above the plant. Sometimes, at midday the plants also gets lots of bright light from the sun too, as the table where I have the lamp sits against a Bay Window. This is only for a brief period of time though. I have had the CFL bulb on up to 14 hours in a row, sometimes even a bit more.

Based on the pics and the description of its you think the plant could be saying "you're giving me too much light"?

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And a full shot of the plant keeping its leaves downwards. I read this can be a sign of hiding from too much light.

What do you think?

    Bookmark   October 5, 2012 at 10:03PM
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Definitely not too much light. Leaves are large and heavy (healthy). You need a ring/leaf support (you can buy them from the violetbarn.

As for the spots... 90% of the time I find it's from cold water drops on the leaves.

    Bookmark   October 5, 2012 at 11:20PM
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I agree...this is probably the reason why they are hanging instead of stretching parallel to the table. They truly are large and heavy...and very thick.

However, it is not MY conditions that got them like this. It came like this from the store and it hasn't been quite that long since I have had it - a little over a month.

I do know the yellow spot was not there and I have been very careful with water droplets not getting or staying on the leaves. I have seen that kind of spots on other people's violets in pictures. They don't look like water spots. It rather looks like some of the green on the surface of the leaf was scratched off and then some yellow underneath emerged.

It's very odd.

    Bookmark   October 6, 2012 at 12:19AM
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Some plants tend to have their leaves pointing down.
This not very good pic is of my now dead Witchdoctor.


    Bookmark   October 6, 2012 at 1:33AM
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If it's not cold water on the leaves, are you sure the water isn't cold water on the roots? I believe that is also one of the reasons for it. The other option is that it's a birthmark which some violets are prone to getting. Either way, I don't think it's anything to worry about. If you feel it's too unsightly, you can pluck it (however, I personally wouldn't - especially if you're not growing for show).

    Bookmark   October 6, 2012 at 4:44AM
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suecirish(6 SE MA)

If this is an Optimara, you probably want to give it a lot less light than you are. They are bred to be grown by everybody, i.e. even those who are not AV collectors, and so are tolerable of less than optimal conditions. That said, they want and need less light than most other AVs. (Personally I think you are giving it too much light for any AV.) Those spots can be burns, but could also be from any number of other reasons, although I think they are too irregularly shaped to be from water drops. Is the new growth at the center of the plant starting to grow in tight? Another sign of too much light. Although I can't see the center of the plant from the angle of the picture, the way it appears to be growing reminds me of an Optimara EverBeautiful I had that died because of too much light before I realized it could be a problem.

If you haven't checked the Dr. Optimara site, that might be a good place to start. Good luck!

Here is a link that might be useful: Dr. Optimara

    Bookmark   October 6, 2012 at 8:21AM
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Unless you grow your violets perfectly, you'll get a few leaf spots now and then.

And some violets naturally point their leaves downward.

Nothing really to worry about.

The full view of your plant looks extremely healthy.

I wouldn't change a thing I am doing.

    Bookmark   October 6, 2012 at 1:38PM
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Your witch doctor looked gorgeous. I could only dream to grow mine into this. How did it end up...dead?

    Bookmark   October 6, 2012 at 10:10PM
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I will cut down on the hours of light. I should say that I would
Often have the lamp on even when the av was getting plenty of bright light through the window. As the sun comes in and out of the clouds and hides behind trees, I cannot predict exactly how much natural light the plant gets from the sun every day, this is why I left the lamp on. But when both the sun and the lamp were on that plant...maybe there was too much light.
Overall, the av is doing fine for now, has some blooms coming too...not many but a I guess it's ok. However, I doubt I will ever be able to get it to the abundance of blooms it had when' i brought it home from pikes over a month ago.

    Bookmark   October 6, 2012 at 10:19PM
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Begonia the crown just went brown almost overnight. I suspect mites, I dumped it immediately but not before taking a sterilised cutting.


    Bookmark   October 7, 2012 at 3:05AM
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You asked:

...and honestly, I am not sure. What do you think? Here is a picture. Does that qualify as "tight"?

    Bookmark   October 7, 2012 at 12:15PM
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irina_co(z5 CO)

Begonia - this thing is stunted but not necessary with mites. I would cover it with a dome and isolate. If it is some kind of stress - it will relax and grow - if it is mites - it will not. The second thing - it is full of buds - if the flowers will come healthy - you are OK, if they are distorted and color is off - toss it.

The large leaves are healthy - so you can restart it anyway - sterilize it by dipping and swishing it a 1:4 solution of rubbing alcohol or similar solution of Clorax, rinse, recut - and start. BTW - you planted it too deep, if the leaf stalks are buried this way - you will get oodles of suckers from each nook.


    Bookmark   October 8, 2012 at 12:47PM
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Just wanted to mention this detail which might contribute to solving the puzzle. The little growth you see in the middle is what has come up very recently after I cut off some large and perfectly healthy leaves in the same spot...thinking those were SUCKERS. (I know, slap over the forehead). It took me a while to understand what suckers are, where exactly they grow, etc.

Soon after I cut those leaves in the middle of the crown, new growth came back up right there, as you can see - and it has been advancing very fast. Actually I was surprised at how fast it has grown in just a few days. So those little leaves that look stunted right now compared to the rest of the plant are in fact very, very young and recent and act as if they will get quite big and catch up to the rest of the plant soon enough.

So I am not yet convinced that those little leaves are actually "stunted" given how fast they went from nothing to small leaves.

I am however not sure whether they grow tight. They seem to be - and this might be because of too much light, as I've had that plant under the lamp for 14 hours a day and could have been more at times.

I am now cutting back on the light hours and just turn the lamp off sooner.

    Bookmark   October 8, 2012 at 1:57PM
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Regarding the planting...I am confused as I have always feared that I planted this AV too shallow!!
It came in a pot bigger than what it is planted in now, but I wanted to sort of squeeze it into this squatty ceramic pot that is part of a two-piece ceramic pot (those pretty decorative ones they see at local nurseries).
I could barely fit it in there as the plant had a large root ball and the pot was quite shallow; but knowing AV-s don't mind being root-bound I said "why not".
If anything the plant is under-potted and I was afraid that part of the root ball will stick out at the surface. It seems to have settled in well though.

I do see little leaves coming out from underneath...but I don't know why. I will try to take another picture to illustrate better.

    Bookmark   October 8, 2012 at 2:06PM
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irina_co(z5 CO)

Begonia - when you repot your pant - you usually take off the last row of leaves - I look at the petioles - leaf stalks and see if they are turning pale - off they go. The way you pot is that the soil is just under the last row of petioles.

They grow suckers anyway - but if you pot them deep - then you really get suckered up. The second way - is to stress the plant - dry it, drop it etc, mail it to Indiana - and the plant goes into survival mode - produces offshoots - it is "afraid " to die - so it will try to leave the progeny - both by blooming and setting seeds and by producing oodles of suckers.


    Bookmark   October 8, 2012 at 3:01PM
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Hi Irina,

Here is a picture painstakingly trying to reveal those little leaves coming out from under. Still not sure whether these are suckers or not. They probably are.
I reead about the method where you're supposed to poke them out with the tip of a pencil. For now, they are so small I am afraid I would do some sure damage by trying to push them out of there.

I will wait until they get a bit bigger, I think. They are clearly not blooms but they are not to be messed with yet either - at least that's what it seems to me.

Let me know what you think by looking at the picture.

Again, the center growth is coming out after I cut off leaves in the center, thinking those were suckers. It is growing fast as if trying to fill in the gap, but I still think it is growing kind of tight.

    Bookmark   October 8, 2012 at 4:23PM
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Irina said Begonia - when you repot your pant - you usually take off the last row of leaves

Irina is right, as the pic shows even though when re-potted you didn't remove the bottom row you still can with an exact o knife and or a pair Kelly clamps.

If you want the practice and have a bit of fun while growing.
Removing one bigger or grown leaf at a time with smaller growth growing in odd/off directions.

You would also want to remove some of the soil from your now soil line for a lower soil line ASAP to prevent the off target sucker growth for longer periods of time and maybe help you keep some of the bigger leaves you have now.

Personally I'd cut them all out one by one while the center growth grew upward and out because some/most AV's are VERY fast to recover. As said the more closer to dead they feel the more reliant they can become PS..I dont push them to hard and I do get them into control as quickly as I can.

A small babble for you on how most suckering plants can grow better with out suckers:

If I remove or cut suckers from the top down the remaining plant would use the energy to grow more thicker and more outward fuller growth.

If I remove suckers from the inside growing outward the plants energy would transfer toward growing height both fuller and thicker

If I remove the top suckers( for you AV "center") suckers it would transfer plant energy to grow outside growth. See also YOUR DOWNWARD SWEEP LEAVES That could of been a lighting problem ?

If I remove suckers from the bottom the plants energy would transfer though out the entire plant including roots

Think of removing suckers to be the same as pruning. A fast overview: If I cut inward the plant grows grow up If I cut downward the plant grows out.

    Bookmark   October 8, 2012 at 11:45PM
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Begonia2005(7) just to wrap it up:

- I should remove the lower, oldest row of leaves.
- I should perhaps re-pot, deal with all the suckers out of pot and then plant back with a lower soil line.
- If I don't re-pot, I should cut all those tiny green leaves that can be seen in the picture - as you confirm they are indeed suckers.

Am I correct?

I would rather not re-pot now and just cut the suckers off with the exact-o knife - as the plant has buds coming out and I would hate to lose them to transplant shock now.

    Bookmark   October 8, 2012 at 11:56PM
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Begonia ...

I believe what has been said is ...

When removing leaves or suckers, always start from the base of your plant.

mrlike2u suggests beginning to remove the lowest level of leaves on your plant one leaf at a time ... (maybe one per week)?

As you remove these lower leaves, it will be easier to removes the adjacent suckers, as well.

Once the lower level of leaves is removed, you won't have to repot, because the soil should now be at the right level (per the lower leaf removal).

One final note from my experience ... if suckers are too small, I typically will leave them alone until they get larger. Larger suckers will be easier to remove. If large enough, suckers can be placed in their own pot to grow a new AV.

Suckers are really new plants. It is a way that your AV is trying to reproduce itself. The problem is that it is best to only have one plant in a pot. If you don't eventually remove suckers, you can end up with multiple plants sharing the same space, soil, water, and food. They will be struggling to survive, not blooming, and looking pretty raggedy.

    Bookmark   October 9, 2012 at 7:57AM
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irina_co(z5 CO)

Hmm - I accidentally posted the pic to Gesneriad Gallery - but you will find it

Here is a link that might be useful: Begonia's plant repair

    Bookmark   October 9, 2012 at 12:08PM
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Hi Irina,

And thank you for the trouble you went through to show me exactly what I need to do to the plant.
I have already groomed it and I pretty much did what you indicated in the picture. Now it is much smaller and sparser - as you can see in the new picture. I am not sure how bad it is that I did not do this over time, taking a leaf gradually, every week...I just thought I would go ahead and trim what needed trimmed.
I used the exact-o knife and just cut off the petioles of those bottom row leaves, as well as the little suckers growing beneath.

Now I am not sure what will happen to all that stump-y part left on the plant. I take it that is (or will be) a neck on the plant.I will eventually re-pot and bury the neck, but in the meantime the base of the old leaves are still on the main plant - where it is stumpy and thick. I suppose they will dry off on their own and then I will be able to shake them off easily (??).

Also, I do not have a clear plastic bag large enough to cover this plant, neither do I have a humidity dome that would acommodate it.

I used the cover from a birthday cake for the leaves I put down recently, but that one is quite short and this plant would never fit under it.

Should I buy one from Indoor Garden Supply?

On the bright side, this plant does have quite a few buds growing, so I do hope they make it and give me some more of that pretty purple blue in the meantime. :-)

    Bookmark   October 9, 2012 at 4:02PM
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...and from the side...

    Bookmark   October 9, 2012 at 4:13PM
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irina_co(z5 CO)

Begonia - you can scrape the stubs with your nails. Right now - the main thing is to give your plant some time to recuperate and do not do anything else to it.

May be I am mistaken - but seems that it is sitting in a ceramic pot - insert to the double AV pot (*&$%$#!!!, cursed contraption). Make sure that you keep the soil barely humid, not wet. Right now it has reduced amount of leaves, so it needs less water.

Regarding the domes - We have them now in several nurseries in town - has them for $ 6.25 etc. - just google 7 inch dome. the better ones have vents.

I think it is a must for rooting leaves and cuttings, giving spa treatment to tired plants.


    Bookmark   October 9, 2012 at 4:46PM
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Yes, it is sitting in one of those squatty double ceramic pots.
The root ball pretty much filled all that pot up when I transferred it there over a month ago, so it is not over-potted.

I am careful not to give it much water - and I will get a dome. That seems to be good for emergencies, or as you say - spa treatments. :-)

    Bookmark   October 9, 2012 at 6:32PM
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May be I am mistaken - but seems that it is sitting in a ceramic pot - insert to the double AV pot (*&$%$#!!!, cursed contraption).

Call me unorthodox if you must but what makes this type of SWC a cursed contraption ? I ask this because it seems for every person saying it isn't a pot to use for AV's there is another person who grows Av's in them just as well as they do in any other type of AV pot.
Begonia If I understand you correctly you said your nemesis plant at it again ? If it's true that you can love a plant to death then why do we always keep the pots ?

We keep our old pots because we know the

Problem isn't the pot at all, the pot is never the problem and never will be the problem. In prior postings I stated more factual than a silly old pot choice myth that peat based soils play a bigger part in being the more deadly death trap culprit to more plant types than any type of pot I know of.

Prior I said I would remove some of the soil from the pot to lower the soil line as an option. You dont need to re-pot it right now. If you where to re-pot why use a peat based soil over and over again if you already know problems are to come ?

Leaf removal is what I would do and yes after some rest it would be done one leaf at a time over time it's not set in stone as to weekly or bi weekly sometimes even longer but I would remove the lesser better looking leaves one by one

    Bookmark   October 10, 2012 at 5:03AM
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I will not use any more peat when I re-pot.
I found pure perlite (no fertilizer) and pure horticultural vermiculite (coarse) and I will mix 1 (AV mix from EB stone): 2-3 parts (perlite): 1 (vermiculite). One thing I will NOT do in the future when I re-pot a plant, which I did in the past, was to pat the mix around the plant when I pot it. I didn't pat hard ...but still. This is clearly a no-no, after I have seen how Annie potted a plant in those podcasts.
She just stuck the plant in the fluffly soil and didn't pat down at all. You would think the mix would become more settled and compact over time anyway, as the plant is watered...but it probably still makes a difference if you allow as much air as possible in the mix from the beginning.

    Bookmark   October 10, 2012 at 8:58AM
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irina_co(z5 CO)

MrLike2u -

Didn't want to step on your toe - my apologies!
If a double ceramic pot works for you - fine, you figured out the technique to make it work.

What I am implying is that it is not fool proof, it is very easy to overwater and rot your plant in this contraption, especially if the grower is inexperienced.

The second thing - the plants grow much better, look better and bloom better if they grow in inexpensive plastic pots with wicks - it is another self watering technique, that requires an acrylic thread for wick imbedded in soil and a reservoir with fertilizer solution where the other end of this wick is submersed. This approach regulates the amount of water better - the soil takes as much as it needs versus as much as ceramic pores let through, annd the second thing - it lets the roots breath easier - because air has an access to the roots through the bottom holes in the pot.

I had the pleasure of attending several National AV Conventions where best growers of the country show absolutely breathtaking plants - and not one of them is grown in a double ceramic pot. Actually the growers snub them - just like I did.

AVs are quite flexible, so there is more than one way of growing them. I am just trying to promote the best contemporary approach. Who knows what they will do in 50 years.


    Bookmark   October 10, 2012 at 12:35PM
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I should mention I AM NOT using this double ceramic-pot for watering purposes. It is simply for decoration.
I DO NOT keep water in the outer pot. This is not one of those self-watering ceramic pots where you leave the ionner pot sitting in the outer pot full of water for all eternity. The inside pot has three big holes at the bottom and if I kept water inside in the outer pot at all times, I would kill this plant in a few days flat.

I water normally. Most of the times, I pour put water in the outer pot, stick the inner pot in for 20 min or so until the mix absorbs some water and the top soil feels moist - and then I am done.
After 20 minutes or so, I throw away the water in the outer pot and the contraption :-) simply goes back to being a decorative pot, nothing else.

So I don't think the pot is really an issue in this case. The way this is made would be great for wicking - because of those three big holes in the inner pot; but I am not doing wicking now. Maybe I will someday.

    Bookmark   October 10, 2012 at 1:00PM
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One more thing, since we talk about true self-watering pots. My mother-in-law has one AV in such a pot. This one has NO holes at all at the bottom and it is supposed to sit at all times in the water that you pour in the outer pot - which is supposed to sip in through the pores of the inner, unglazed ceramic pot.

Trouble is that this contraption, as you call it, seems to keep the soil TOO DRY, at least in my mother-in-law's case. When I touched the top soil and below, it was REALLY dry; so it was my impression this was letting in TOO LITTLE water.

Granted, the AV was alive and even blooming a what do I know? But the soil really seemed too dry to me.

    Bookmark   October 10, 2012 at 1:06PM
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irina_co(z5 CO)

The problem with these pots - the pores get sedimentation and they stop letting water through. To restart them - you need to bake them in 1500F kiln. We have a lady in the club who does ceramics and she explained to us that lately the Chinese made pots came with very small pores, and sometimes if the water is hard in the area - they get clogged in 3 months of use. Your MIL probably had the pot for many years - and it is the end of useful life of this insert - unless you have a kiln in a back yard.
The way how you use it works just right.


    Bookmark   October 10, 2012 at 1:17PM
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The problem with these pots - the pores get sedimentation and they stop letting water through

No offense but I started laughing when you said sometimes the water is hard in areas and stopped laughing at hard water blocks the small pores of a SWC made in some slave labor factory in China.

Why I stopped laughing is because it seems it's easier to blame anything and everything else as the reason a plant is hesitating to grow as we want them to than it is to address a very sandy peat based mud bath soil as a bigger and more truthfully the problem to A-LOT more than just clogging pores of a pot.

Hard water being the culprit to clogging pores is far less possible than a bagged soil clogging the pores of any type of fired clay.

Maybe the lecture speaker at the AV club meeting didn't mention or didn't know:
This same peat moss based bagged soil is very capable of clogging a 1.5 inch sink drain pipe in a minute. Maybe not as slow as adding a few sips of water in a SWC over 3-5 months but the same bagged soils would clog just as easily any type of fired container SWC's.... Yes even if it's from China it too would be included.

    Bookmark   October 10, 2012 at 8:20PM
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Any idea why peat moss stills seems to be used a lot for av potting mixes? What do you think maintains its popularity ? I still see it mentioned everywhere when it comes to putting togehter the right mix. I personally don t intend to use it next time I repot. I plan to only include some av e.b.stone soil, perlite and coarse vermiculite. I am just curious what keeps the peat in other than its apparent cost efficiency.

    Bookmark   October 10, 2012 at 10:48PM
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Unfortunately, I see myself forced to resurrect this my plant is not doing well. After I removed older, heavy leaves and suckers, as discussed here...the plant was left quite scarce. About two months ago I had also made the mistake of removing part of the crown in the middle, incorrectly thinking those were small suckers coming up.

As you can see, now the new growth in the middle is tight and slightly yellow. The worst part is the blooming situation. The first re-bloom recently came in and it is not even a pale shadow of its extremely exciting original blooms. Never mind that they are very scarce compared to what the plant had when I bought it.
Here is the pitiful road this plant traveled in my conditions.

    Bookmark   October 31, 2012 at 11:56AM
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...and here's where it is now...

I don't think it is mites because the plant has had that tight middle growth for a while and I think it would have started graying up by now if it was mites.

I did take it out of that artificial light regimen, as advised, and just placed it in a window where it gets soft, filtered light part of the day. Even when the sun-rays fall directly on it, this is mild fall-winter sun - the other plants seem to be doing fine in it.

But I just can' t believe how ugly the re-bloom is. Extremely pale and spotted purple, life-less, etc.
Could it be from the stress the plant has been under over the past couple of months?
If yes, do you think it can ever go back to its former glory? In other words, is it worth keeping?
Because if it doesn't, I will have to toss it - as I don't have space for any low-achiever. :-(

    Bookmark   October 31, 2012 at 12:03PM
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irina_co(z5 CO)

Begonia -

my diagnosis - too much TLC. Remove the bloom stalk and let your plant direct all energy towards regrowing leaves and regaining its strength.

Yes - the ugly blossom can be a sign of very bad things - but the most probable cause is too much handling.

Let it rest and regrow - and the next bloom should be normal. If not - we will reassess it, OK?


    Bookmark   October 31, 2012 at 1:19PM
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Sounds great. This is what I will do. :-)

    Bookmark   October 31, 2012 at 3:29PM
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Begonia ...

This plant looks like it's been through a rough time.

It needs time to recoup.

The crown looks okay ... even vigorous.

The plant needs to replace its foliage (leaves) in order to support good blooming.

Is there anywhere you could move the plant to get it out of your prime decor space during it's recovery ?

It's going to need a few months.

    Bookmark   October 31, 2012 at 5:45PM
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My concern is that the growing center is coming out kind of tight and pale yellowish. I suppose these are the effects of past stress and that it will take a while for the plant to come back normal.

Exactly where and how should I keep it now?

I took it out from under artificial lights because this s how it has gotten so tight n th first place; but I may have kept the lamp on for too long.
Should I place it under a dome, in just natural light?

    Bookmark   October 31, 2012 at 7:08PM
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I've never put plants under a dome. Maybe someone else can speak to this.

The plant will still need light, though adequate light from a window would do. I would not fertilize it for awhile though, until I actually could see that it was doing better.

I would think about setting up a recovery spot somewhere out-of-the-way in your home. Lots of growers will use a spot in their basements for this.

If you continue to grow violets, they will have these periods where they need to be allowed to recover their strength. Some violets even need this after a successful blooming.

And, of course, moving this plant someplace out-of-the-way will free up space in your violet display for a new violet.

Typically, by the time you've picked out a beautiful new violet ... and enjoyed it's blooming for a few months, ... your original violet will be fairly recovered ... and well on its way to a new blooming cycle.

    Bookmark   November 1, 2012 at 7:53AM
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gardencraze(9b Groveland FL.)

WOW!! so much good info here! I'm new to Av's and I have some of theses problems, so thank you for posting.
I was fertilizing my av's and they are real healthy looking (so I thought) After reading these post I went back to take a good look and I realize that my plants are very 'squaty' the blooms stems are way too short some with very few blooms. well I picked up my beautiful purple bag of plant food and realize I have been feeding them orchid food, LOL I must keep reading and searching for more how too's

    Bookmark   November 1, 2012 at 1:18PM
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About fertilizers-labels such as 'Orchid food' 'Tomato food' 'African Violet food' are manufacturers ploys to get you to buy more fertilizer. I raise both orchids and violets and I use the same fertilizer on both as well as on my outdoor flowering plants. All fertilizers will have three numbers on the bag, such as 10-10-10 or 0-10-0. The first number stands for nitrogen which is important for leaf growth. The second is phosphorous which is mainly for flower production and root health. The third is potassium which is used by the plant for disease control and, to a lesser extent, root health. When you buy fertilizer, do not look at the label; look at the numbers. For flowering plants, get a fertilizer with a higher middle number. (I use a 10-10-10 for rooting leaves as there is no need for high potassium in a non-flowering leaf). That said, for violets, stay away from anything with urea in it as it will burn the roots. It will be stated in the analysis chart on the bag. After you have some practice growing, you can start experimenting with different number combos to see which works best for your growing conditions.


    Bookmark   January 23, 2013 at 3:02AM
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Sorry, that should have been high phosphorous in a non-flowering leaf.


    Bookmark   January 23, 2013 at 3:05AM
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as i also grow orchids and AV , i want to add the following:
there are 2 types of orchid food: for leaf growth and for flower growth periods, the 2nd one has high phosphorus. so do look at numbers, but try to remember what they are for.
all orchid and AV fertilzers are for acidic loving plants. that's the main diff from your regular fertilizer.
it seems to me when the AV is young and/or in recovery - you could feed it orchid fertilizer with lower phosphorus. once it's bigger , then switch to higher phosphorus. when it's in resting period after prolonged bloomimg, let it just grow leaves with low phosphorus, instead of forcing blooms with higher phosphorus.
how's the ailing AV doing by the way?

    Bookmark   February 24, 2013 at 12:47PM
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