those gigantic ramblers - Kiftsgate et al

Campanula UK Z8August 13, 2013

Well, it is that time of year (bare root ordering) and despite my penniless state, my little teapot of 2pound coins is full, and having got some fabulous deals on naturalised narcissi (25kg or around 400 bulbs for 25 pounds!), I have some left over to buy a few species and ramblers. As I can only manage 6, from Trevor Whites excellent selection, I have been scrutinising my list in some anguish. Will definitely be getting r.forrestiana and Amy Robsart, leaving me with 4 to choose. Help!
Pondering other species (obvs) and The Seagull, Wichurana sp, The Garland, Lykkefund, Kew Rambler or basic soulieana, Cedric Morris, Bobbie James, Wickwar, Tom Marshall, William Tyndale.
Must do well in some degree of dappled shade or woodland edge.

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Oh how are you going to make a choice?! How exciting though to have the space for those big beauties. And getting better every year too!

    Bookmark   August 13, 2013 at 11:20AM
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Perhaps the scarcity of responses reflects the fact that, absent a huge public garden or estate, most of us on here do not have the space to grow these roses, even though many of us would love to! I know that Filoli in Woodside, CA (used to be a huge private estate - now open to the public) used to have Kiftsgate growing up a huge tree, but I don't think it is there anymore. You might send them an email to inquire.


    Bookmark   August 13, 2013 at 3:07PM
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Campanula UK Z8

Yeah, I wondered that....but then, don't you all have Lady Banks, Secret Musk, Lamarque and so forth....and at least one person here has a tractor and some of you have thousands of roses (but I guess that could be it - these large roses do take up the space of half a dozen other smaller bushes). Even so, in the land of gigantic teas.........20 -30 feet, might, I guess, turn into 60 feet. It is absolutely gigantic (to me) but 5 acres, I thought, for country Americans, was par for the course.

    Bookmark   August 13, 2013 at 7:29PM
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Tessiess, SoCal Inland, 9b, 1272' elev

I have The Garland and really like it. Came own root from Greenmantle last year. I planted it along a fence line where it can stretch out just about as much as it likes. It's in a pretty good amount of shade from 3 different trees but does get dappled sunlight throughout the day. It bloomed very nicely for me this year, and is currently setting a fine crop of hips. No sign of disease, easy care (meaning it likes my lazy no maintenance style of gardening), does well low water. Canes are easily pliable. It presents a graceful yet wild look that appeals to me.

I grow a number of big 'uns (and have another arriving in the mail anytime). I grow Paul's Himaylayan Musk, yes, yes, yes, this rose makes me happy. So does a big strapping plant of Princess Marie that arrived not long ago (maybe last fall as a band) and has taken off like a maniac. Again, yes, yes, YES!!!! I have her being trained up the lowest branch of an approximately 80 foot tall ash. No flowers this year, but I'm hoping for a flower waterfall next year.

I have 3 plants of Mermaid. Love her. Armed to the teeth, but who cares, she is gorgeous.;)

I do covet greatly a yellow Kiftsgate seedling named Lemon Light that was only available from one nursery (Heirloom) back in the 1990s, but I don't know if they still have it. But want it I do.

Rambling Rector is also on my wantlist. Big? Sure, but like a billowing sheet of white flowers, how glorious.

Camps I think you asked er sometime vaguely recently (sorry I'm not so good in always checking in here, and the threads go poof and scroll off the bottom, out of mind) about R. fedtschenkoana. Not a tree climber, but plenty big and wild looking. The leaves smell like pine to me. Mine is not quite mature. Last year she bloomed only a little and set few if any hips, but this year was a different story. She had a big main flush, with multiple smaller ones to follow. She was blooming again yesterday with just a few flowers. And new for this year was a fantastic crop of brightly-colored hips which the wild creatures found rather tasty--I managed to snag a small amount and put them in the fridge so that I might try planting some seeds. I find it fascinating the difference in the flower and hip crop this year. I can't account for it entirely by size of plant because she wasn't exactly a shrimp last year. However, new this year were some once-blooming neighbors that bloomed for the first time this year (or much more), and I wonder if they are sympatico in the fertility department? R. primula is one. This rose arrived bareroot from Pickering in December of 2011 and had a very few flowers in early 2012. No hips. So this year comes around and primula puts on a major show, and xanthina nearby put on a decent one. Primula, xanthina, and spinosissima were blooming at the same time as fedtschenkoana. I thought I would harvest some of the primula and xanthina hips but the wild creatures thought otherwise and quickly ate every single one. Then they started on fedtschenkoana. The spinosissima hips were also especially plentiful but apparently not as tempting to the wildlife. One of my dogs loves them, so I pop a few in her food dish every day or so.

I also have William's Double Yellow, and it bloomed for a very long period this year. Hundreds upon hundreds of flowers, with a resulting huge crop of hips. These hips are also well appreciated by my puppy. However, they don't seem to be on the menu by the birds, etc. Foliage is just lovely too.

If small spinosissimas appeal to you I can recommend both Compactilla and R. alabukensis. I don't know if you have many choices when it comes to R. californica, but my favorite selection is called 'First dawn'. She blooms in great trusses of cupped pale pink single extremely fragrant flowers. Sets great masses of hips that don't taste half bad! Also, this one is capable of doing a bit of climbing--right now I have one that is in the 10 foot range. This plant is an excellent rebloomer too. Leaves have a bit of plushiness to the touch, but not nearly as much as R. californica 'Los Berros' (which has bigger flowers but little rebloom).

Other big ones I have are white Lady Banks and the very vigorous rambler Apple Blossom. The sweetbriar Light Pink Eglantine from SJHRG is also happy to oblige by attaining impressive size. Blooms have a delicate beauty, but this rose is one tough survivor and quite drought tolerant.


    Bookmark   August 13, 2013 at 8:44PM
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Kippy(SoCal zone 10. Sunset Zone 24)

I would love to see photos Melissa, I love your descriptions of them.

    Bookmark   August 13, 2013 at 9:39PM
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catsrose(VA 6)

Another vote for The Garland. Great piles of blossom, like snow drifts. Mine also gets quite a bit of shade. I had to cut her way back because I am rebuilding the garage she is covering. But the construction has been delayed for the weather--and because construction always is--and now she has grown back with a vengeance and it's been only six weeks! The photo was taken just after she came into bloom. By the end of the week, the left side was in bloom, and also further up the roof. On the right, you can she is just starting to bloom in the redbud. She has canes almost to the top. Ad she has buried the acuba beneath.

I've grown Bobbie James. I love the blossoms, but they are individual entities, not mounds like The Garland. It is also stiff-caned--less 'rambling' and more 'marching.'

    Bookmark   August 13, 2013 at 10:14PM
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Campanula UK Z8

OMG, Cats. That is just fabulous. I agree, the Garland is a gorgeous rose - had hoped for fragrance too and coming from a moschata lineage? Was also in two minds regarding cane flex and wondered if a stiffer specimen might find it easier to stretch up the extremely tall trunks of mature intewresting info regarding BJ.
Tessiess, I was so hoping you would chime in - I think you and Cass (where is she these days?) are very much on the same page as me and having a wildly rural wood, the species seem closest to the vernacular ( one of the only design tropes I have ever followed with much enthusiam). Years and years ago, I had Fedschenkoana - I didn't appreciate its many virtues and gave it away but will surely be replacing it over the next few years. PHM was our celebratory rose, planted up the entrance poplar to the wood and settling in nicely (already hooked its pointy prickles in the deep grooves of an old poplar trunk and questing skywards), with violets, epimediums, hardy geraniums and soloman's seal. My daughter has R.Rector so already have cuttings under glass and yep, I totally craved your paler pink californica rose when you posted pics. Not available here but I have the deeper pink C.plena (I love the vivid foliage on this one). Yes indeed, the Princesses Marie (and Louise) and even the wild sempervirens roses - could they cope with partial sunlight - up to 6 hours if favourably placed but only guaranteed 4 hours of full sun if not? Avoiding the spins at present, although there is a meadow area out the front of the wood which will be a good site for the few I have. I am also tempted to grow splendens as a rambling ground coverer, trailing over the high banks defining the boundary ditches (where I can have a decent set of asiatic primulas at last). As for Mermaid, I must agree - a truly gorgeous savage beauty and must echo Kippy - never tire of seeing photos and your descriptions have me insomniac and salivating.

    Bookmark   August 14, 2013 at 12:07AM
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bart_2010(8/9 Italy)

I have Bobby James and it is an excellent tree-climber; because of the rather stiff canes I never had to train it up the tree. I also have Treasure Trove and 2 Paul's H. Musk. P's HM is so beautiful and most years is so fragrant that it perfumes the whole garden, but sadly it's bloom time is very, very brief. Bobby James and Treasure Trove last longer. I am hoping to add a lot more giant ramblers to my garden as well, though for now I am still concentrating more on the central part of the garden where I want to have mainly roses that can re-bloom. I am on the look out for ones whose bloom time lasts a bit longer than P'sHM...bart

    Bookmark   August 14, 2013 at 8:29AM
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Mendocino_Rose(z8 N CA.)

Camp, Have you seen Lykkefund at Mottisfont? it's beautiful! I would say other than that the Garland is the handsomest of your choices.

    Bookmark   August 14, 2013 at 9:17AM
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daisyincrete Z10? 905feet/275 metres

I have grown in Surrey, Mermaid, Lawrence Johnston, Cerise Bouquet and Rosa californica plena.
In Cornwall I grew Bobbie James, Paul's Himalayan Musk, Wedding Day, Adelaide d'Orleans, Alberic Barbier, Alexander Girault, and Kiftsgate.
I realise that Cerise Bouquet and Rosa californica plena are not large ramblers, but they behaved like it.
They were all wonderful. The only one I had any trouble with was PHM which used to blackspot badly.
My favourite was Cerise Bouquet. It grew more than 20 feet into a tree and had such elegance and beauty it took my breath away.

    Bookmark   August 14, 2013 at 11:47AM
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Mermaid for sure. Just plant it where the spikes wont eat you. Garland and Treasure trove, while only 2 years old, are doing really well with only a bit of water. Apple Blossom is growing like crazy. Veilchenbleau nice contrast to the white ramblers. Chevy Chase if red is your thing...I suspect not.
Wedding day is on my list for next year. Love the petals.
Marie Viaud or Violet..for plum.
I love the ramblers and rambler wannabies.
Happy shopping.

    Bookmark   August 14, 2013 at 12:06PM
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Campanula UK Z8

Jeannie, funnily enough, Chevy Chase is a rose I frequently put on my lists but it always loses out in the final cut (and unless I get a freebie, it will probably do this year as well).
Mendocino, I already have one helenae hybrid (Sammling?) and the sp.helenae so obviously predisposed to Lykkefund....but choice is so limited.
Daisy, am guessing BJ is likely to make the list this year at least but Mermaid needs a more thoughtful placing and may have to wait till next year. Probably buy the Garland though, so have 2 spaces left - one of which might just go to the perennial beauty, Alba suaveolens (for the fragrance) but, like you, Bart, I am also looking to have a longer bloom time since there are no repeating roses planned for the woods just yet and possibly, depending on the canopy, maybe never. Poplars are very late into leaf (late May) so can have a fairly reliable hope of good blooming, even deeper into the woods (the blackberries, which have enough light to actually flower and fruit and the many grasses attest to the general good light levels).

    Bookmark   August 14, 2013 at 12:34PM
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Campanula, you mentioned the size of American gardens. A generation ago many people had one or several acres, especially those who lived in semi-rural areas or outer suburbs. More recently, and in all the newer the suburbs, houses are crammed together on tiny tiny lots measured in square feet rather than portions of an acre. Very large expensive houses are often built out very close to the lot lines. People then install "landscaping" rather than gardens, a few ornamentals to surround the hardscaped outdoor entertainment space. And for many people, that is pretty much it. Gardening has dropped from something everyone who had some land did, to something that only enthusiasts do.

Not a whole lot of room for big roses in that environment.


    Bookmark   August 14, 2013 at 1:44PM
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mad_gallica(zone 5 - eastern New York)

In much of the country, large white ramblers are weeds, which grow practically everywhere by the side of the road. In order to make it worthwhile in a garden setting, a large white rambler has to have something to set it apart from the multiflora. There is a lot more interest in non-white ramblers like Veilchenblau.

    Bookmark   August 14, 2013 at 2:40PM
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Campanula UK Z8

Mmmm, I suspect you are on to something there, Mads because the dog-rose is equally common in the UK and yet everywhere, we see the traditional high centred hybrid tea while singles, all singles unless gigantic colourful ones, tend to be regarded as wildflowers and therefore not appropriate for a garden. The sweet briars, burnets and true species are often overlooked because they are not really seen as garden specimens at all. There are only 3 or 4 nurseries which offer a selection of wild roses at all, here in the UK so I am thinking that size is less the deciding factor than style and remontancy when deciding on a rose variety. If the old garden roses have trouble gaining traction in the gardening markets, the wildlings are almost invisible, overlooked and underappreciated. For me though, the five-petalled simple pinks and whites with complete blossom covered foliage and sweet fragrance are the ur-roses by which all other standards are to have space for even one of these iconic, tree scrambling ramblers is the fulfillment of a long-standing fantasy (as is having space for a tree of greater stature than the small cherries and apples and rowans I have (illegally) squeezed on my allotment.

Rosefolly, I think, has been planting trees and will probably understand the heightened emotions connected to trees - the long-lived, slow, patient and truly life-enhancing joy which is contained in the potential within these giant sturdy plants - a feeling of responsibility which took me by surprise alongside a not entirely welcome sense that I cannot be as anarchic and selfish as usual when dealing with plants which will outlive generations.

    Bookmark   August 14, 2013 at 3:32PM
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fogrose(zone 10/sunset 17)

My small house is on a 50ft x 100 ft lot. I plan on cramming every plantable inch with roses but I can dream of having enough room to plant the roses you all live with. Don't fret Campanula. Whatever you choose will be marvelous and then there's always next year for more roses.


    Bookmark   August 14, 2013 at 10:27PM
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I only grow Lykkefund now among your candidates and it is growing at the edge of my woodland, in dappled shade. Your Lykkefund is probably much bigger than mine

I lost Secret Garden Musk Climber in March, after 6 years. I always knew it would be a matter of time before it succumbed to my unsuitable climate. It is very vigorous and extremely thorny but I think I would try it again if I lived somewhere warmer. I got it from Loubert in France.

I've given away two ramblers I like to friends in better climates, Seagull and White (Mrs) Flight, rather than have them die on me. I

I bought Seagull for a friend with a summer cabin in one of the warmest parts of Sweden and my husband helped her to plant it. I had to go for a walk while they were at it as I couldn't stand watching. I had recommended planting it to cover an outbuilding but our friend wanted to plant it next to the back door of her very small house, only two rooms and tiny kitchen. I tried to explain that the little ownroot plant would become a 6 metre monster in all directions but she didn't listen. I haven't been back but a couple of years later she asked me on the phone if roses could be moved? She didn't remember that I had tried to talk her out of her planting idea.

    Bookmark   August 15, 2013 at 6:17AM
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zjw727(Coastal Oregon Zone 8b)

Mariannese, what a beautiful picture!

    Bookmark   August 15, 2013 at 1:14PM
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Campanula UK Z8

Completely gorgeous, Marianne - exactly what I hope to achieve in some distant future - will hold onto that image as inspiration when all seems lost....and, Marianne, I too have been 'that friend' with wilful obstinence completely obliterating any shred of sense I might have had. Payback is inevitable.

    Bookmark   August 15, 2013 at 4:07PM
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How about Venusta Pendula? Horrible name.

    Bookmark   August 17, 2013 at 11:47AM
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A closer look at a bloom of Venusta Pendula

    Bookmark   August 17, 2013 at 11:52AM
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Adelaide de l"Orleans really "sticks" if you want a rambler to grow up a tree.

    Bookmark   August 17, 2013 at 11:59AM
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Kew Rambler throws up pole vaulting type canes t make height. Also has many nasty thorns with hooks on the ends to make sure they tear your skin.

    Bookmark   August 17, 2013 at 12:02PM
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My personal favourite is Francois Juranville.

    Bookmark   August 17, 2013 at 12:08PM
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bart_2010(8/9 Italy)

Lynette, they are all gorgeous! How long does their flush of bloom last? Please ! I think this is important info, but so hard to find! bart

    Bookmark   August 18, 2013 at 4:53AM
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g-in-fl(9a Florida)

OMG, Lnyette. You just had to post a photo of that GORGEOUS creature! I'm trying to chose which third or half of my roses (still in pots) I need to re-home. And you post something impossible not to want! She's only in bloom a very short period of time, right?

    Bookmark   August 18, 2013 at 9:03AM
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g-in-fl(9a Florida)


I once corresponded with a lovely young lady who lives in Germany, and loves ramblers. I don't think she is on the forum, but if you go to HMF and search for The Yeoman
(an Austin rose), you will find several photos she has posted, and you can click on her name and send her a message. She may be a good source.

    Bookmark   August 18, 2013 at 9:12AM
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This is a side thought not about rambler/climbers

My best friend has a Mary Rose and a Madame Issac P. in the backyard under the edges of a big Mulberry tree. In the spring, when the tree is just leafing out, the roses get a nice flush and then just sit quietly the remainder of the year as big overgrown shrubs. He doesn't trim or clean them out at all. All they get for food is mulberry leaves. The spring roses look really good every year. I am thinking some of the more vigorous shrubs might do this in your woods and you have lots of space to try a few.

    Bookmark   August 18, 2013 at 11:25AM
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Adelaide does go on for a long time about two month, if the weather doesn't include rain. Kew is not effected by rain and goes for 2 months. Francois Juranville starts to slow down after two months. I grow many ramblers and Albertine has the shortest bloom period, barely three weeks. I am talking about mainly PNW conditions. Felicite Perpetue has a long period of bloom as well as Gentilliana. The best bang for your buck is Paul Transon or Madame Alice Garnier. Both tend to have a small repeat in the fall and have a few scattered blooms along the way.

    Bookmark   August 18, 2013 at 2:32PM
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Madame Alice Garnier is a smaller rambler about 16 feet.

    Bookmark   August 18, 2013 at 2:34PM
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Felicite does have a longer bloom than most but also grows like a weed up trees.

    Bookmark   August 18, 2013 at 2:39PM
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Just in case some of you didn't know...Albertine can be kept as a large 7 foot shrub but hard summer and fall pruning. I have done it and it works. Most ramblers will grow better if allowed to go sideways (both ways) instead of upwards. Some of mine went to 30 feet both ways.

    Bookmark   August 18, 2013 at 2:45PM
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I have a preference for the wichurianias because of the larger flowers and the fact that they are happiest growing sideways along a fence. Here is one I got from Ashdown called Jessica.

    Bookmark   August 18, 2013 at 2:51PM
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Gardenia can be kept under control because it is a slower than usual grower for a rambler.

    Bookmark   August 18, 2013 at 2:54PM
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Campanula UK Z8

Well blow me down, Lynette - I come back from the woods to see your postings....what a sight for weary eyes! Where to start - well, Venusta pendula looks like a dead ringer for Splendens, A rose I do have and will actually be attempting to move since it has only been in the ground for 3 years (although that has not deterred it from making gigantic liana-like canes, flinging itself around the tomato supports with abandon). Heartening to hear about the bloom cycle of Kew Rambler (this is one I really want) as so many of these ramblers are often over in an eye blink but 2 months sounds more than good enough. And, the icing on the cake - for the last 3 years, I have had a small Francoise Juranville which I took as a cutting from a clients garden....and have never really known what to do with it so it has remained, patiently and somewhat bonsai'd until your posting, in a gallon pot. This poor little rose will finally be put out of its misery and planted this autumn. I ought to have suspected it was likely to be a good rose since it has remained resolutely blemish free, if dwarfish, and has gallantly continued to thrive in conditions of dire neglect. Bart is quite right, it is almost impossible to get an estimate of blooming times - those of us who only really get one good flush really do want to know how long we can expect it to last yet information is so hard to find about this essential aspect of rose culture (Gentilleana has been on my radar for some time so again, thank you for the info).
Kitty, this is exactly how I imagine my roses are likely to respond. I have never really had any experience with poplars but am enjoying them immensely. The height and stature is very similar to majestic cathedral-like beechwoods....but, unlike beech, the canopy is light enough to support grass and many flowers as an under-storey. Poplars are very late into leaf also so I think roses will be happy enough to have one good flush and sit there vegetatively for the rest of the season, providing shelter for birds - a prospect I look forward to. Gracin, will check out the details - thank you.

    Bookmark   August 18, 2013 at 5:07PM
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mmmgonzo(z7 OR)

Hello :)

2 great roses for me are:

Paul Transom (I love this rose) - and has formed an absolute wall/thicket along the edge of my gardens.

Paul's Himalayan Musk (love the smell of this rose, and the blooms are so lovely)

Juane Desprez grows well for me here - unsure how large it would get if it was left to do what it pleased.

I also have Armide which is very sizable- intertwined in with Paul Transom.



This post was edited by mmmgonzo on Sun, Aug 18, 13 at 23:50

    Bookmark   August 18, 2013 at 6:48PM
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plan9fromposhmadison(8A Madison Mississippi)

I actually grew Rosa Soulieana here in Mississippi, decades back. That's about as relevant to gardening in England as it is to gardening on the Moon. However, I did like the plant immensely. Beautiful foliage, and what I remember as a quite prostrate growth habit. A most graceful plant. The blooms only appeared after a couple of years, but were lovely in a very subtle way. Then, we sold the office building where I'd planted it. Sigh... Story of my life... Planting, then moving...

That Soulieana was in my first rose order, ever - from Roses of Yesterday and Today. I didn't understand heat zones at that point, so Soulieana's survival was pure beginner's luck. Planted it in full sun, against a building, between banks of air conditioning compressors - in a hastily ammended mixture of construction sand, clay soil, and building debris. So, in your benign climate I'm imagining Soulieana should be even more graceful and healthy for you.

Never could find Kiftsgate in those years. And seeing how well it does in England, can't imagine it happy in our horrible heat. Probably best that I didn't discover Vintage Gardens (who did carry it) until they were going under. I would have ordered Rosa Gigantea from them, too.

Good luck with your gigantic climbers! In my opinion, unless something has the potential for becoming enormous, or is considered "invasive", it's value is rather iffy.

The great climbers always seem more graceful in England...

    Bookmark   August 21, 2013 at 4:55AM
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Tessiess, SoCal Inland, 9b, 1272' elev

Here's a picture of R. primula when beginning to bloom this year. I was trying to take a shot looking up through the foliage to get the effect of the flowers popping out along the canes. It is such a graceful looking rose, with the stems covered in the softest yellow flowers gently swaying in the breeze. I'm trying layering primula right now because I wouldn't mind having more of this look dotted around the garden.

I have lots more photos of my big and wild looking roses but I ran out of space earlier in the year on Flickr and so nothing has been uploaded since. This has limited me to posting one picture at a time. I think Flickr just gave an automatic account size increase. If I can tear myself away from playing with the puppy, I may get my photos organized!


    Bookmark   August 22, 2013 at 2:11PM
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bart_2010(8/9 Italy)

Thank you for your info on the bloom periods, Lynette. I fear that perhaps in my hot, dry climate that ramblers blooms will never be as long as in a more mild climate; the beautiful Paul's Himalayan Musk seems to last only a week,( but maybe I'm exaggerating a little...)Bobby James, Treasure Trove, May Queen and Alexander Girault all last longer. I think part of the problem is that roses that bloom later in the season,as do most ramblers, often get fried by heat. I still intend to include them in my garden, however! But it is VERY helpful to know that, for example, Albertine blooms only briefly even in a mild climate. It is so hard to decide amongst so many beautiful ramblers that it's a help to have a reason to eliminate one from my wish list! regards, bart

    Bookmark   August 23, 2013 at 5:49AM
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can you grow ramblers in zone 5?

    Bookmark   March 27, 2014 at 9:25PM
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Wow! What a post/follow-ups with photos! I can only dream from my postage stamp. However, I may try Albertine as Lynette suggests. (Love that rose.) I grow a couple of Lady Banks varieties and a Violette. All lovely. I've managed to keep them in check, but if I had room, I'd grow The Garland. What was good enough for Gerturude J.... Oh, and I'd grow a couple of the ones Lynette posted: Venusta Pendula and Gardenia. Gee, those are just jaw-droppingly fantabulous!

    Bookmark   March 27, 2014 at 11:26PM
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nikthegreek(9b/10a E of Athens, Greece)

Now this was the thread I absolutely did not want to see first thing in the morning....Makes me not wanting to go to work... All of these are wonderful. Lynette I'm envious.

Bart, I do think that the length of the flush for those once bloomers depends on the climate. In a cool spring and summer climate it tends to get quite longer than in our med climate where blooming happens in the short period of bliss before the summer heat melts down everything and sends people in the shade for cover. Selecting ramblers which tend to bloom earlier and later than average helps in extending the blooming period in the garden.

PS I just realised this is an old thread. I was wondering how come this is the bare-root buying season for Camps in the UK... Now I know!

This post was edited by nikthegreek on Fri, Mar 28, 14 at 1:29

    Bookmark   March 28, 2014 at 12:59AM
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Lynette, where in Canada do you live? B.C.? Carol down in Oregon

    Bookmark   March 28, 2014 at 1:29AM
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Mendocino_Rose(z8 N CA.)

I just want to add something about Gardenia. There is a huge Gardenia growing out on our coast. It's right above the ocean doing well in the cold and mist. My own would like to take over the world and will surely outlive me.

    Bookmark   March 28, 2014 at 8:53AM
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