Leonie Lamesch & mystery

jacqueline9CAAugust 1, 2013

I have a rose which Kim Rupert (roseseek) thnks might be 'Eugenie Lamesch' (Peter Lambert, 1899), which is a lost rose - we have found no photos of it, even, just some paintings reproduced in books.

Kim gave my rose the study name "Schmidt's Smooth Yellow" because it is completely, truly, absolutely, thornless. It has a similar growth habit, foliage, and shape/size of blossoms as the still in commerce and very popular 'Leonie Lamesch' (Peter Lambert, 1899 - he married into the Lamesch family).

Anyway, I was cutting rose for the house, and ended up with both of these in a vase - here is a picture - what do you think?

Jackie

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anntn6b(z6b TN)

Have you seen the picture of Eugenie that is reproduced on note cards?

    Bookmark   August 1, 2013 at 5:48PM
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strawchicago 5a IL(zone 5a)

Hi Jackie: You are so lucky to get a smooth yellow rose. I got a nasty prick 5 minutes ago from killing Japanese Beetle on a thorny Knock-out ... my finger is still in pain.

Your yellow rose is very pretty, I like intense yellow. How's the scents on them? Thanks in adance.

    Bookmark   August 1, 2013 at 6:05PM
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jacqueline9CA

Strawberryhill - they are polyanthas, and like most polyanthas, don't have much scent.

anntn6b - if it is a repro of a painting, not a photograph, I probably have it - when I was first looking for this rose, several nice people from all over the world sent me images of the several paintings of it that were in old books. One was even from a tobacco card! They are lovely, but I would really like a photo, even a B&W one!

I forgot to ask in my first post - Anita and Jill - I donated plants of SSY to the Sacramento Historic Cemetery rose garden, and to the SJHRG this past Spring. I was wondering - how are those plants doing? My original one has gotten really large (even though it is planted in a large tub). It spreads out - it is only 4 ft high, but it must be 7-8 feet across.

Here is another pic of the flowers in the vase -

    Bookmark   August 1, 2013 at 6:24PM
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rosefolly

It's gorgeous. I'm sorry it wasn't in bloom when I was up your way. Nice to see the photos.

Rosefolly

    Bookmark   August 1, 2013 at 10:56PM
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jerijen(Zone 10)

Leonie Lamesch, tho, IS very fragrant. Lovely, fruity fragrance. Ours never recovered from gophers attacking its roots, and so is gone. But its fragrance was legendary.

Jeri

    Bookmark   August 1, 2013 at 11:23PM
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jacqueline9CA

You are absolutely correct, Jeri - I think I was asleep this afternoon when I posted. Anyway, Schmidt's Smooth Yellow has a faint scent of green apples. It really does, and I smelled that before I read in a rose book that that was what was said when it came out!

Jackie

    Bookmark   August 1, 2013 at 11:37PM
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jerijen(Zone 10)

Jackie -- I do love that green apple fragrance.

Jeri

    Bookmark   August 2, 2013 at 12:27AM
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roseseek

Jeri, this is what Schmidt's Smooth Yellow looks like in the Encino heat.


The only illustrations of Eugenie Lamesch I have been able to uncover are this drawing from a book I am too lazy to look up the name of at 1 AM right now...

And, this Willis Cigarette card Billie Teabag from Australia graciously supplied.


There are two other illustrations on HMF at the link below.

Schmidt's Smooth Yellow is definitely of multiflora breeding, similar to Leonie's. It could be classed as either a polyantha or Lambertiana depending upon climate induced eventual size. Its petals are as fragile in heat as Leonie's. When you compare the bud and flower form and descriptions of the plants, they are a very good initial match. Try using the advanced search on HMF for yellow polys with thornless, or nearly so wood. Eugenie is the only one which comes up that has any history of ever having been sold in the US. My plant of Schmidt's Smooth Yellow is completely prickle free. Kim

Here is a link that might be useful: Eugenie Lamesch

    Bookmark   August 2, 2013 at 4:03AM
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Mendocino_Rose(z8 N CA.)

This is all very interesting. Thanks for the wonderful photos too.

    Bookmark   August 2, 2013 at 10:03AM
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Dublin29

Any news on this rose. Has it been identified yet ? It's a lovely rose.

    Bookmark   August 12, 2014 at 3:42PM
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roseseek

Nope, you know as much as anyone else does so far. We need someone to grow Belmont Yellow and Schmidt's Smooth Yellow side by side to determine if they're the same, or DNA results from testing the two to prove they are, or aren't the same. Then, for someone to uncover unknown photographs or other illustrations of the rose, or an unknown plant of Eugenie which is known to be her for comparison. Being able to identify the same rose across the country from each other will help show its wide availability, which Eugenie had. We're just waiting for more evidence and information to be unearthed. Any ideas? Kim

    Bookmark   August 12, 2014 at 4:08PM
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ingrid_vc(Z10 SoCal)

The flowers depicted in the book look very much in the style of what I remember in Graham Thomas's rose books.

Jackie, that second picture especially is incredible. The two roses do seem very similar in type, except for the color difference. They look wonderful together.

Ingrid

    Bookmark   August 12, 2014 at 4:19PM
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vmr423

Missed this thread the first go 'round, but will volunteer that I think "SSY" bears an uncanny likeness to that cigarette card illustration. I noticed that your plants have those pink-tinged buds, but the pix that Kim posted didn't have that pink shading. I suppose that's climate-related?

I suppose there could be some other yellow thornless Polyantha whose name is now lost to history, but that seems less likely than "SSY" being 'Eugenie Lamesch'... And you've got your apple fragrance, as well. I'm convinced.

I'm not a huge fan of bright yellow roses, but that soft, buttery yellow is right up my alley. Lovely!

Virginia

    Bookmark   August 12, 2014 at 4:46PM
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jacqueline9CA

Coincidentally, I just took a break from deadheading hips and tidying up Schmidt's Smooth Yellow, which is what Kim thinks (and I do too) may be Eugenie Lamesch. It is not blooming right now, probably because it had set zillions of clusters of round green hips, and the tree it is growing under keeps getting bigger, and thus making more shade. Anyway, I cleaned it up and took off 90% of the hips and fed it, and removed some aggressive Mexican sage which had decided to eat it. So, I am hoping for a good bloom in Oct.

I have just rooted 3 little cuttings, one of which has roots coming out of the bottom of its tiny pot. Going to pot it up, and eventually plant it in more sun, right next to a pathway which goes up to our back stairs - so nice to have a truly, seriously, thornless rose!

Jackie

    Bookmark   August 12, 2014 at 4:54PM
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roseseek

Yes, the lack of the red edged buds is due to climate differences, Virginia. My plant was rooted from Jackie's so I know it's the same rose. You probably also noticed the significant difference in how saturated the yellow pigments are between her photos and mine. We're often twenty to thirty (sometimes more) degrees different and her area has received probably three to four times the amount of rain mine has so far this year. That makes for some pretty substantial differences in the way things look and behave. Kim

    Bookmark   August 12, 2014 at 4:56PM
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Kippy(SoCal zone 10. Sunset Zone 24)

Belmont Yellow, Cl Lady Hillingdon and what 3rd rose would be good growing on this coast? (From Roses Unlimited)

    Bookmark   August 12, 2014 at 6:23PM
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jacqueline9CA

Here is a pic of mine showing the red edged buds.

Jackie

    Bookmark   August 13, 2014 at 9:37AM
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vmr423

While looking at photos of 'Aglaia' this a.m., I noticed that there was a photo of an Australian rose labeled "possibly Aglaia" that looked an awful lot like "Schmidt's Smooth Yellow" (and the illustrations of 'Eugenie Lamesch') to moi. The Aussie had been purchased mislabeled as 'Thisbe', just to complicate matters.

Of course 'Aglaia' is a parent of 'Eugenie Lamesch', but the other photos of 'Aglaia' looked a bit different to me. I wonder if the Aussie rose has thorns?

Link below- what do you think?

Virginia

Here is a link that might be useful: yellow rose photo at HMF

    Bookmark   August 13, 2014 at 10:46AM
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roseseek

Whether it has prickles or not, the "not Thisbe" is a once flowering rambler. I think it's a very safe presumption that Schmidt's is closely related to Aglaia and there is another first generation offspring from Aglaia which resembles Schmidt's.

Excellenz Kuntze - which there is no historic information of it ever having been commercially offered in the US. There is that documentation for Eugenie.

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.24066.0&tab=1

There is also Oriole - which is similar to Aglaia, probably a self seedling, which flowers once and has been available in the US, even prior to Vintage selling it. It's possible some of the Agalia offered in the US might even be Oriole. They are sufficiently similar if someone wasn't familiar with Aglaia, this could be identified as Aglaia.

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.26041.0&tab=1

These should begin appearing increasingly familiar as they are all first cousins or step siblings to Trier, the basis for the "hybrid musk" roses. Kim

    Bookmark   August 13, 2014 at 11:53AM
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vmr423

Oops! Should've thought to check the 'comments' section at HMF...

Both 'Excellenz Kuntze' and "SSY" have interestingly fringed sepals, but the 'EK' sepals look smaller and darker and more obviously fringed. The flowers sure do look similar, though- to my untrained eye, anyhow. (Or should I say eye-in-training'?)

I did spend a lot of time looking at photos of some of these Multiflora/Polyantha/HM roses when I was trying to figure out the ID of a rose I rooted a cutting from. Many times, I saw a photo that at first looked a lot like my rose, then a closer inspection showed clear differences- 'Pax' was the only candidate that withstood close scrutiny...

The problem of ID is compounded when the same roses look diiferent in different environments, as with your yellower-than-Jackie's "SSY". I can even imagine a rose classified as cream-colored in HMF because that's how it looks in Northern Europe where it was first grown...

At any rate, I do agree that "SSY" probably is 'Eugenie L'...

Virginia

    Bookmark   August 13, 2014 at 12:51PM
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Kippy(SoCal zone 10. Sunset Zone 24)

While day dreaming on the Rogue Valley page, I noticed "Belmont Yellow" is listed (not available but listed)

    Bookmark   August 18, 2014 at 9:12PM
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anitasacramento(z9/14 CA)

Jackie, the SSM is doing fine in the Sacramento cemetery, but it sounds like I needed to plant it in a space where it has more room! I put it in the top corner plot in the West Bed, next to Grandmother's Hat and Louise Avenue (a beautiful white HT that may be Snowbird). If need be, we can propagate it and plant another one in another spot. We like to let our roses grow to their full potential size, whenever possible - I just thought this was going to be a little one!

It's been blooming rather non-stop. I try to pinch off buds on newly planted roses but this one pumps out the flowers too often for that.

Some of the cemetery rose garden gets too much shade after the oak trees leaf out but this is a fully sunny spot, you'll be glad to know. We plan to propagate Schmidt's Buff Giant and plant it in a sunnier spot. It does very well during the first flush but then suffers in the shade once the leaves are out.

Thanks so much for giving us this rose, and for working so hard to preserve, identify and share the old roses in your garden!

Anita

    Bookmark   August 19, 2014 at 10:40AM
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luxrosa

That is such a beautiful yellow rose! What exciting news, to perhaps find a lost rose.
I love the photo of (study name) Eugenie Lamesch with Leonie Lamesch, Their bloom forms seem identical to me.
Do both roses have red filiments? I wonder how uncommon or common that trait is in roses.
Lux.

    Bookmark   August 20, 2014 at 9:47PM
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jacqueline9CA

Anita - glad to hear that SSY is doing so well! Not small. My old one is in a large pot with the bottom out of it, so it may be into the dirt below already. It is about 3 ft tall and 4 feet wide, and getting bigger all of the time. We have to prune it back to keep it from eating the parked cars on the street. Pic of most of the bush attached.

Glad you will be able to plant a bush of Schmidt's Buff Giant (aka Anna Olivier) in a sunnier spot - that is my all time favorite rose. My original one is about 8 feet tall by 12 feet wide.

Jackie

    Bookmark   August 20, 2014 at 10:20PM
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Kippy(SoCal zone 10. Sunset Zone 24)

Two spent blooms side by side. If you looked at them from the side, the only difference is the colors. Leonie is just a June cutting. This is her second bloom

Belmont Yellow has not arrived yet. Kind of hope it is not in transit til next week due to the heat

    Bookmark   October 3, 2014 at 1:19AM
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jacqueline9CA

Kippy - that is great that you have SSY and are getting Belmont Yellow. I am very interested in seeing what you think when you are able to compare them. Please post as many pics as you are able of buds, open blooms, etc. The buds are especially important, as those on SSY are very distinctive. They have blunt tops, and here they have red coloring on the tips, which disappears when they open.

My SSY and Leonie Lamesch blooms look like each other in every stage of development, except the color of course.

Jackie

    Bookmark   October 3, 2014 at 3:32PM
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Kippy(SoCal zone 10. Sunset Zone 24)

Thanks Jackie

I plan on growing the two almost side by side (Leonie Lamesch in the "middle" of them) so that I can take photos and everyone can compare them leaf by leaf etc. I also have Cl Jackie from San Jose Heritage Rose Garden and Cl Yellow Sweetheart on the other two corners. It should be a very yellow little space.

Now for Belmont Yellow to arrive (I had thought maybe yesterday or today but no luck)

    Bookmark   October 3, 2014 at 8:16PM
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AquaEyes 7a New Jersey

Just wondering if we have an update on the "Belmont Yellow" and "Schmidt's Smooth Yellow" comparison. I've been looking up some Polyanthas and happened upon these two. Though I haven't grown either, I can't help but notice how different the foliage looks between them on the HelpMeFind pics. Either way, the idea of a thornless healthy yellow is rather appealing.

:-)

~Christopher

    Bookmark   October 15, 2014 at 7:37PM
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Kippy(SoCal zone 10. Sunset Zone 24)

Belmont is here but I think rather different but will know better after it has grown a bit. Too early to really say

    Bookmark   October 15, 2014 at 8:04PM
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roseseek

Schmidt's Smooth Yellow budded to VI Fortuniana flowered this morning. Conditions were perfect for it to have scent. I've spent quite a while sniffing it and trying to analyze what it smells like to me. First, it definitely has a strong multiflora scent. Quite sweet initially and high in my sinuses. The sweetness quickly gives way to a skunky, bitter sensation down in my throat. It's an impression I get when I taste beer and when I smell multiflora hybrids, what many continue calling "hybrid musks". Toward the end of the bitterness in my throat, there is a residual "peppery" scent, also in my sinuses, though it, too, has a sweetness very similar to what I perceive from the sepals, peduncles and new growth tips of Mutabilis. I perceive the same scent from the same parts of Gloire des Rosomanes and many other older garden roses. Add cedar to the mix, and you have what I smell from Grandmother's Hat.

Eugenie Lamesch supposedly had a distinct "violet" scent. I can now imagine how that could have been determined. I seldom get any scent from most violet flowers. I do get a strong sweetness from yellow Pansies and many violas. Pansy, viola and violet plants themselves have that same skunky bitterness in the back of my throat multiflora scent has. Schmidt's smells quite sweet and peppery right now, with that strong violet "skunky, bitterness", almost a taste response rather than a scent. Perhaps that is what was perceived and described as the "violet scent"? This plant has been held in partial sun where it receives regular water and high (for here) humidity due to the density of the surrounding potted and in-ground plants. I'm certain that's why the scent is so perceptible right now. The cooler yellow images were shot without flash. The warmer yellows are with flash. Kim






    Bookmark   October 23, 2014 at 1:23PM
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