placement/combination of climbers and ramblers

poorbutroserich(Nashville 7a)August 28, 2013

Ok folks. So I have a bunch of climbers who are ready to go in the ground. I'd like to combine some of them with each other or with ramblers if I have any that will look particularly nice with each other...I am open to any and all suggestions...
I have 20 ft wide by 12 ft tall of south/west facing climber space. The background is my new garage which is a deep "rosemary" grey/green.
I plan to use the noisettes on arches/arbors.
I have the following:
Aloha Hawaii
Lady Hillingdon cl
Buff Beauty
Alister Stella Grey
Reve d'Or
Monsieur Paul Lede
Stormy Weather (great repeat)
Don Juan
I have ramblers:
Spanish Beauty
La Follett
La Fraicheur
Edmond Proust
Blue Magenta
Perennial Blue
Hermann Schmidt (a band has bloomed on and off all summer)
Long John Silver
Francois Juranville
Arcata Pink Globe and Gardenia I am sending up an old crab apple.
I thought Parade might look pretty with Blossomtime or Polka?
That's all I can think of off the top of my head. Most of my ramblers are "heeled in". Looking over the list it seems like most of mine are very similar in color. Maybe I need a pop of crimson or red?
This area gets strong afternoon sun but Parade doesn't get fried here.
Thanks you all!

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AquaEyes 7a New Jersey

I don't have nearly that many climbers, but when I was figuring out placement for my roses, I simply tried to think of light next to dark, balance the few I have in the yellow spectrum across the yard, and not have two roses of similar but "just-off" color close together.

I was agonizing about it for a couple weeks, moving things around over and over, until I realized that the garden won't be all roses when I'm done -- companion plants will go in between. So if I think, for now, that 'Botzaris' and 'Blanc de Vibert' really should have more than one other rose between them, I have to remember that I also left space for other things which will further separate these two whites. If you're concerned about there not being enough dark colors, simply plan on some clematis when the climbers are large enough to be "living trellises". In the meantime, start by thinking of general growth habits for what you have, and any that already have spots in mind. Once you have a few that "must go here" you can build around them with the rest.



    Bookmark   August 28, 2013 at 6:40PM
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poorbutroserich(Nashville 7a)

Well thanks! I'm just too inexperienced to really envision "mature bushes". YKWIM? And the growth habits of some of these climbers may be more like pillars than trellis and then some of the ramblers may be rampant...
I think too much. I was just hoping someone might grow these together or apart and could give me some wisdom.
You are way more laid back than I am regarding "mistakes" . I'm just hoping for a plant them and watch them grow kinda scheme....kinda like paint by numbers?
Your attitude is inspiring. Thank you.

    Bookmark   August 28, 2013 at 7:49PM
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ingrid_vc so. CA zone 9

You have some big roses there like La Folette, Long John Silver, Lamarque, Reve d'Or, Crepuscule, and possibly a few others. I think one or two of them might well fill that 20 x 12 foot space once they're mature. Given that, are there other places in your front, back or side yards where you can plant climbers? In my dry heat a southwest exposure, especially against a wall, would fry them (that's how my Reve d'Or died), but I've learned that humid heat is quite different and I have no experience with that. I would think the purple ramblers would like very nice with white or yellow, but other than that I can't say too much because of the size problem. It may be that a lot of these climbers can be kept trimmed, but I have no experience with that either. Hopefully you'll get some input from people near your area, which would be the most valuable for you.


    Bookmark   August 28, 2013 at 8:29PM
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Kippy(SoCal zone 10. Sunset Zone 24)

I am with you, I would put them all far too close together and then go oooops now what. Actually I would probably plant them, wait for them to get really big, then decide the garage needed paint......

I find that I like it better when colors flow gently between shades than big jumps (bad= Lady of Megginch-Crocus Rose-Young Lycidas and good= Janet-Carding mill-Bishops Castle-Ambridge) But that is just me and I like mellow colors over bright.

And I am totally jealous your Stormy Weather repeating! Mine goes on strike about May. I did totally cover the roots with a heavy layer of horse manure and it seems to be enjoying the cooler feet

This post was edited by Kippy-the-Hippy on Thu, Aug 29, 13 at 0:55

    Bookmark   August 28, 2013 at 11:42PM
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alameda/zone 8

You have alot of really nice climbers. I dont have many ramblers so am not familiar with them. I too have lots of climbers growing out in pots - most from Vintage.

Regarding color, I used to agonize and do drawings, look at photos and worry about what would look good with what. I finally figured out that roses, at least mine, dont have blooms all over them all the time. When they do bloom, they all look good together. Have heard nature makes no mistakes and I have found this to be true. Now, I just plant wherever and they all look great. Sometimes I will pair up an apricot and a lavender or purple because I love that combination but now - I just plant them. I have yet to find a combination that isnt smashing.......when they bloom, they are all magnificent.

I think I would mainly be concerned with the growth habit of each rose - like, will one totally devour the other in growth. Crepuscule is one of my all time favorites - it looks good with anything! Parade is another beauty, and Don Juan is a gorgeous red.

    Bookmark   August 29, 2013 at 12:48AM
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Susan, just thinking out loud...

assuming you want rebloom on the garage wall, I would eliminate the ramblers. If you take out the noisettes, that leaves the following. I also took out Buff Beauty because I don't think it wants to climb, really; it is more of a mounder or shrub.

Then if you consider that the exposure is hot afternoon sun, I'd take out Lady Hillingdon, because I think the color would fade badly.

That leaves,

Parade - deep pink
Aloha Hawaii - kordes apricot/pink

Blossomtime - med pink, can be grown as shrub
Polka - apricot

Monsieur Paul Lede - climbing hybrid tea apricot
Stormy Weather (great repeat) - purple can be grown as shrub

SDLM cl, pink
Don Juan , red, hybrid tea climber

After that I'd take out Paul Lede, cl, Polka and Blossomtime, because of the possible fading in the hot sun. Apricots and light pinks sometimes fade. Have you noticed that they do or are they blooming yet? That leaves

Parade - deep pink
Aloha Hawaii - kordes apricot/pink
Stormy Weather (great repeat) - purple can be grown as shrub
SDLM cl, pink
Don Juan , red, hybrid tea climber

How does Stormy Weather do in blazing hot sun? does it fade to a gray or retain its color?

Most Kordes roses love sun so I think Aloha Hawaii might do well there. I think that might mix well w/Parade and SDLM, climbing. I don't know about the thorn count on those, so that's something to consider. Anyway, that gives you a mixer rose of apricot with red/pink (Aloha Hawaii) and SDLM, cl (pink) and Parade (dark pink).

As I said, just thinking out loud - fwiw.

If it were me I'd try putting them in their pots at the base of the wall and see how the colors blend - are they blooming yet? And I'd check to see if those apricots do fade. I don't think Aloha Hawaii will; Parade is pretty dark so will probably be okay and SDLM I think will be fine.

If Stormy Weather does okay and doesn't fade to gray, it might look great with SDLM and Parade. It depends on what you like together.

Something else to consider is that some of those are good as shrubs also, so the branching structure might be awkward against a wall. The hybrid tea climbers will probably climb straight up, though. And be sure to think about whether you like the blooms and how the rose looks. Just because you bought it doesn't mean you have to plant it!

Hope I didn't make the decision more muddy and all that was more of a help than a hindrance! Good luck with all that.

and just one more thing, do you have Stephen Scanniello's book on climbing roses? He gives a lot of good advice about how to train climbers and has a good mention of Parade, for example. :) Gean

This post was edited by harborrose on Thu, Aug 29, 13 at 2:34

    Bookmark   August 29, 2013 at 2:11AM
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catsrose(VA 6)

I have similar conditions of both structure and orientation and am in a similar zone. I have one rambler (The Garland) planted close to one corner and she takes up half the space and would take up more if I let her. On the other corner I have a climber. About 6' away from the building I have smaller roses, mostly polys and small chinas (more contiuous bloom), and a gallica. This seems to work. The rambler really can get out of control quickly!!!

When the rambler is in bloom, she's fantastic, but she's just a Thorny Green Monster from mid-June on and then a mass of twigs all winter. I have Altissimo as a climber, but Don Juan would be great and blooms better (I have him further down the line on the house). The red contrasts nicely in the spring and diverts the eye from the Green Monster the rest of the season.

I would save Crepuscle for a shady area, as it does very well in shade.

    Bookmark   August 29, 2013 at 8:59AM
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poorbutroserich(Nashville 7a)

Thanks so much all of you! This is just what I'm looking for. I'm greatly appreciate the time it took to formulate your opinions and advice and then the time it took to type it up. Truly, you all are why I love this forum. I could not grow roses without your support. *gush*
The garage is covered with "hardy plank" and the paint is supposed to be good for 15 years...even if it's only good for 10 I figure I'm doing ok as far as repainting...
Ingrid, my beloved Felicia is near this spot and she does just fine. It may be the humidity that keeps her from frying. I have outer walls that I can use for the ramblers although I will likely keep them pruned to fewer canes so that they don't get TOO tangled (I am going for that tangled secret garden atmosphere)
Kippy, Stormy Weather is one of the few roses on Dr. Huey that has managed to survive. I have cut that poor thing back so many times and it just keeps coming. The blooms are sporadic but the spring flush was amazing. I love that shade. I didn't really think about the possibility of it fading *duh* so I will place it in the "shadiest" spot and see how it does before planting.
As for the others, none of them have bloomed yet but they are putting out the canes! Yikes.
Gean,I absolutely love Parade. Just love that rose. I tried to pillar her on an arbor and just kept breaking canes so she will go on the trellis.
Your thoughts are very helpful. This is the way I need to learn to think about roses. Those that will make nice shrubs I should likely let them be shrubs.
Do you think Paul Lede, Polka, Blossomtime and Lady H would make a nice vignette?
I will check out Scanniello's book on climbing know I love my books.
To throw another twist into the decision, I also have about 15 ft of warm brick that really is going to take very late and low afternoon sun. I thought that might be the spot for my more tender roses as it is well protected.
Catspa, I hear you on the Thorny Green Monster. With space at a premium I will likely keep all ramblers to exterior fences. I thought it might be pretty to have at least one "blue" rambler with some of the apricots and pinks. Maybe Stormy Weather will fill that niche. AndI love my polys and small chinas too. They are just so wonderful and so cheerful and bloom machines. They are so healthy too!
My rose addiction started last spring when I bought a bunch of modern HTs grafted on Dr. Huey. A friend walking around my garden commented, "Hey, those don't look so hot". They were all the moderns I bought as a newbie.
And they don't look well at all. Cane dieback, BS, twigs.
I don't think I pruned them hard enough or maybe I pruned too early? Regardless they look awful and will be SP'd.
Like Gean said, just because I bought them doesn't mean they need to be planted and space is at such a premium for me I really have to be ruthless.
Thanks again you all! This made my day!

    Bookmark   August 29, 2013 at 9:35AM
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Susan: I was looking up Spanish Beauty on HMF and saw this photo of it combined with Parade. To my eye it was very pretty.

    Bookmark   August 29, 2013 at 9:47AM
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ingrid_vc so. CA zone 9

Susan, since you say space is at a premium (and don't most of us have that problem!), I thought I'd mention that apparently Cl. SdlM is not nearly as good a bloomer as the bush form. I would want to concentrate on the ones that give the most bang for your buck in that respect. For me Cl. Lady Hillingdon and Reve d'Or were excellent rebloomers and not that difficult to keep within bounds.


    Bookmark   August 29, 2013 at 12:35PM
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poorbutroserich(Nashville 7a)

Ok great. Thanks for the tip. I am heading to HMF to check out the photo too!

    Bookmark   August 29, 2013 at 4:38PM
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Here in my extreme weather pocket in Central Florida my roses that receive all day unrelenting heat are smaller and more compact than those that receive some afternoon shade. As I mentioned in another thread, Mrs. B.R. Cant in full blazing sun is barely four feet tall and maybe that wide, while with some afternoon shade she's over my head and just as wide. Same with Mrs. Dudley Cross and several others I have duplicates of. So if you want to keep them small, stick them in full, no-relief sun.

Climbers here with no sun relief have the same issue. They struggle to climb their structures. Most of their growth is during the fall and spring, and then they just shut down during the worst heat.

    Bookmark   August 29, 2013 at 4:41PM
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Here's what I do when I'm considering placement of roses and other plants by color;
I make a bouquet of the roses I'm considering planting beside one another, and then I can see which roses appear best beside one another.
This is how I recently decided to grow 'Princess Alexandra of Kent' with blue geraniums in front of it, such as Roxanne instead of mauve Verbena, by making bouquets with different combinations,
I chose Malvern Hills' to grow upon a Princess Tree that has big purple flowers instead of putting
cl 'Florence Bowers Pink Tea' upon the limbed Princess Tree. The pale yellow and cream roses are really beautiful with the purple,
originally I was pleased with how cl. 'Florence Bowers Pink Tea' looked in a bouquet with the purple Princess Tree blossoms, but when I tried Malvern Hills and the purple blooms, the combination knocked my socks off.

Blossomtime can be grown as a self supporting bush. That is how I am growing one of mine.

-Where in heaven did you find a 'La Follet' did you import it yourself?


    Bookmark   August 30, 2013 at 7:13PM
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poorbutroserich(Nashville 7a)

Dang Lux...that is a great idea! I like that. I ordered La Follet from Vintage...After reading Ritson's "Climbing Roses of the World" I went on a rambler binge and figured out what Vintage offered that no one else did. Placed quite an order.
Once it grows I will be happy to share cuttings if I am competent to take them.
Ingrid I am all about bang for the buck.
Floridarose I am really struggling with what to put on my Southern red brick wall. I am seriously considering putting Mermaid there. I'm assuming Noisettes will do okay. There is an area that gets a bit less sun and that's where I will place the more delicate ones.
William Allen Richardson is on this brick wall and it has shot out with foliage and cane growth of 5-6 feet (band from Burlington this spring) but no bloom yet.
I've realized after reading all of you all's suggestions that placing climbing roses/ramblers before they bloom is a bit dumb and a real exercise in frustration.

    Bookmark   September 1, 2013 at 12:59PM
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Mendocino_Rose(z8 N CA.)

My concern for your roses is size and growth habits. Some of them are so big. My Edmond Proust is threatening other large ramblers planted ten feet away from it and happily tip roots. Most of the ramblers you have a large. Gardenia and Arcata Pink Globe will be too much in the Crab Apple together. I've grown both Aloha and Polka as large shrubs. Parade is stiffly branched. SDLM climbing is much bigger than you would imagine. Climbers do look good mixing it up a bit as long as one doesn't thug the other out. As time goes by they grow more. I don't want to be discouraging just cautionary. I'm growing almost all the roses on your list. I wish I could show them to you. It would take too long to address each one. If you have the space give them space. Try not to plant a thug next to something less vigorous. You've really chosen a list of great roses. I hope it all turns out wonderfully.

    Bookmark   September 2, 2013 at 8:17PM
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poorbutroserich(Nashville 7a)

Thanks Mendocino, it's my understanding I can reduce the amount of keep width manageable. Am I living in a dream world?
Can I trellis Parade and Aloha?
I read in Beales a suggestion to keep climbers to 3 main you think that is a good idea?
Is your garden on HMF?
We get below freezing here, do you? Will this slow their growth a bit in my Zone? Arcata and Gardenia are already EXCEPTIONALLY vigorous...which is very exciting and terrifying at the same time. The crab apple is in between my garage and a maple....some of the branches reach into the I was figuring if they outgrew the crab I would train them toward the maple.
My ramblers just went in this June and right now they are mostly just in a holding spot until final placement.
Would you mind speaking to me off list? My email is
D I C T A at comcast dot net
And thanks for wishing me well.

    Bookmark   September 4, 2013 at 10:24AM
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Kippy(SoCal zone 10. Sunset Zone 24)

I would love to see photos of your Edmond Proust the bush!

Mine looks very happy but it is closer than 10 feet from Felicitie Not sure who is going to take over first! But Felicitie is pretty sure she wants to win. I just hope they make one large blooming green hedge.

    Bookmark   September 4, 2013 at 12:45PM
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Mendocino_Rose(z8 N CA.)

I'll e mail you Susan.

    Bookmark   September 4, 2013 at 6:50PM
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Observations from a PNW garden of the best for carmine pink upright growth
Aloha Hawaii...a must have not too tall upright
Crepuscule...grows fan shape then bends over
Blossomtime...starts upright then flares out
Polka...needs warmth then grows into a large bush
Buff Beauty...tall then spreads and finally bends
Alister Stella Grey...didn't like my climate thin canesl
Reve d'Or...deeper color than Gloirie Dijon much smaller
Monsieur Paul all time favorite,very fragrant
SDLM cl...when good very tall when not frail growth
Don Juan...needs heat to do well, excellent red color
Spanish Beauty...another that needs heat very fragrant
Blue Magenta...thicy canes like a fan, real violet color
Long John Silver...beautiful monster rose icy white flws
Francois of the best ramblers
Gardenia...a favorite very bushy prune to make upwards

    Bookmark   September 5, 2013 at 3:29PM
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poorbutroserich(Nashville 7a)

Thanks Lynnette! I can't wait to see how everything turns out.
Is your Don Juan own root?

    Bookmark   September 7, 2013 at 8:45PM
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cemeteryrose(USDA 9/Sunset 14)

I've been given a La Follette for the cemetery so there will be another one here in Northern Cal - it's also on the Santa Clara fence. It is huge, with hips that look like pears. I'm a little afraid of it! We planted our fence roses ten feet apart and some (especially Arcata Pink Globe/Moser House Shed Rose) want to spread twice as far. I plan to put La Follette at the end of the row along the fence where the cane can go 20' or more if that's what they want to do. BTW, Bill Grant says that the orginal name of this rose is simply 'Follette.' Just like it's 'Reine Victoria' not 'La Reine Victoria.'

We have 18 roses on the fence bordering the north edge of the cemetery. Santa Clara University has 250 of them on half a mile of fence! Anybody who wants to study ramblers/climbers should look at them. It's an incredible display. I've been there three times and learn (and enjoy) new things each time.

    Bookmark   September 7, 2013 at 9:43PM
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poorbutroserich(Nashville 7a)

Hips like pears? Sounds gorgeous Anita. Someday I will get out to the West Coast and take in all of you all's beautiful roses....
Do you think it will grow differently or any less vigorously here for me since I get freezing temps?
Question: Can rambler width be controlled? It was my understanding that basal canes can be pruned at the ground. Will this control width or is it just a losing battle?
In some of my books Follette is named "Senateur Follette"...I thought "La Reine Victoria" was simply "La Reine"?
I call my "one cane La Reine".

    Bookmark   September 9, 2013 at 5:11PM
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Mendocino_Rose(z8 N CA.)

I've planted La Follette too on it's own structure. There are some very interesting roses on the Santa Clara fence.

    Bookmark   September 9, 2013 at 5:38PM
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There is a La Reine, hybrid perpetual, and a Reine Victoria and its sport Mme. Pierre Oger, bourbons. Both RV and MPO are cupped but my favorite of the three, from ancient memory, was MPO. It was pale pink and developed deeper pink edges as it aged. I read somewhere that turning a deeper color with age is a sign of China roses in a rose's background. By now I would guess that most of our roses would have some China roses in their background so I don't know how useful that bit of information is.


    Bookmark   September 11, 2013 at 12:25AM
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poorbutroserich(Nashville 7a)

I believe I ordered La Reine the HP. But gosh, if it's an HP it is unusually slow to grow. MPO is gorgeous. I appreciated the darkening with age because in my climate most stuff fades pretty darn quickly.

    Bookmark   September 11, 2013 at 11:33AM
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