Question about 'Sweet Chariot'

AquaEyes 7a New JerseySeptember 4, 2013

OK, I know it's not an OGR, but this forum is more familiar to me....

I got 'Sweet Chariot' from RVR this Spring. It grew...and grew...and grew. One cane is over three feet long, and now that it's in the ground, I pegged it to the log edging. It bloomed a few times, but not many flowers -- which I expect from a band. But I'm wondering if I got the right rose.

The growth and leaves definitely look "multiflora-like" which fits 'Sweet Chariot'. The flowers I've seen have been semi-double at best, often straight-single, and usually pale mauve-pink fading to white. They are fragrant, but smell more like Bourbon/Damask than what I'd expect from a multiflora-bred rose (which fits 'Sweet Chariot' as its described as having a damask scent).

I'm wondering if it's a soil-effect. 'Sweet Chariot' does tend to have pale green leaves at first, then they darken slowly. Planted nearby is "Bleu Magenta" which takes longer to green-up with its new leaves. I'm thinking I may need to use some acidic fertilizer in the bed next year (I don't want to add anything now). Could this be related to the flowers on 'Sweet Chariot'? Or is this what it often does in its youth? Or should I start wondering if there was a mix-up? The flowers actually resemble pale 'Blue Mist' flowers, but that rose isn't in RVR's inventory.

I'll go out back and take some pics....

:-)

~Christopher

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AquaEyes 7a New Jersey

Here's a pic of some flowers.

Thoughts?

:-)

~Christopher

    Bookmark   September 4, 2013 at 5:15PM
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roseseek

Those flowers aren't Sweet Chariot. They're also not Blue Mist, but do resemble Blue Mist Sport a bit. I'd contact RVR and question if they possibly mixed something up. Kim

Here is a link that might be useful: Blue Mist Sport

    Bookmark   September 4, 2013 at 5:24PM
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AquaEyes 7a New Jersey

Ugh, I was hoping it wasn't a mix-up. When I saw the pic below at HelpMeFind, I thought perhaps that 'Sweet Chariot' was variable in its flowers, especially regarding petal-count, when young. My pic shows up a bit lighter than real-life, which actually matches the color of the palest flowers in the pic below. I'll have to go through the RVR inventory and see what else it could possibly be.

:-(

~Christopher

Here is a link that might be useful: Sweet Chariot pic at HelpMeFind

This post was edited by AquaEyes on Wed, Sep 4, 13 at 18:07

    Bookmark   September 4, 2013 at 6:05PM
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AquaEyes 7a New Jersey

Hmmm....this one seems similar in their pic, but the pics at HelpMeFind seem to show two different roses -- the ones in Europe have fuller flowers than the ones from California. I'll keep looking...

:-/

~Christopher

Here is a link that might be useful: 'Marietta Silva Tarouca' at RVR

    Bookmark   September 4, 2013 at 6:10PM
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roseseek

Or, Kathleen, Ballerina....Kim

    Bookmark   September 4, 2013 at 6:14PM
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AquaEyes 7a New Jersey

Definitely not thornless by any means....and it doesn't seem to be one of those "nice, neat, clean singles" like the two you mentioned. It looks more like something trying to become semi-double. I'll have to take pictures of it tomorrow when the light isn't hitting it so hard and call RVR.

I was a bit worried about that one long 3' cane that shot out of it. The rest of the plant has the "look" of 'Sweet Chariot' -- arching and weeping -- save that one cane. And then the strange flowers....hmmmm........

:-?

~Christopher

    Bookmark   September 4, 2013 at 6:21PM
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roseblush1(8a/Sunset 7)

Christopher .....

The petal count and color of 'Sweet Chariot' can vary, but it is never as low as the rose in your photo ... at least in my experience of growing the rose in two very different climates.

I moved my current plant this year because it was sited where it was located in the coldest micro-climate in my garden and never really took off. Even the stressed, unhappy plant always had blooms with a higher petal count than the rose in the photo.

Smiles,
Lyn

    Bookmark   September 4, 2013 at 6:25PM
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roseseek

It's multiflora in origin, whatever it is. Sweet Chariot is multiflora in origin, too.

    Bookmark   September 4, 2013 at 6:25PM
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AquaEyes 7a New Jersey

Thank you both. I called Janet at RVR and she said to email pics, which I just did. Since I think it's too late to make another order to plant now, I'll just hold off until Spring. There were a couple others I missed out on, and even after moving almost everything to their spots, I'm still holding a few spots open for them.

I took some more pics. Here are all the pics I have of the rose sent as 'Sweet Chariot'.

:-)

~Christopher

Arrival day, after being repotted, May 1st, 2013.

June 2nd, 2013.

Planted, in this pic it's in the center of the front row. Note the 3' long cane arching from the center and pegged onto the log edging.

Me holding the 3' long cane, with a cardboard box underneath for "backdrop"

Most of the rest of the bush, with cardboard behind it.

Closer shots of flowers.

    Bookmark   September 4, 2013 at 7:32PM
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poorbutroserich(Nashville 7a)

That's definitely not Sweet Chariot. I don't think it's Lyda Rose either. At first I thought it was. I think it may be one of the mystery roses I received...if you find out what it is, please let us know!
Susan

    Bookmark   September 4, 2013 at 9:23PM
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poorbutroserich(Nashville 7a)

My Sweet Chariot blooms more like pompons or pompoms or whatever the proper terminology is...

Here is a link that might be useful: sweet chariot

    Bookmark   September 4, 2013 at 9:27PM
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poorbutroserich(Nashville 7a)

Ummm....looking at HMF it may be Lyda Rose...
Susan

Here is a link that might be useful: lyda rose on hmf

    Bookmark   September 4, 2013 at 9:30PM
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ingrid_vc(Z10 SoCal)

I'm not totally sure but the stamens in comparison to the size of the rose seem larger and fluffier on the picture of Lyda Rose. Christopher's rose seem to have a smaller ring of stamens. Hopefully the nursery personnel will recognize this rose.

Ingrid

    Bookmark   September 4, 2013 at 9:44PM
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AquaEyes 7a New Jersey

It's definitely not 'Lyda Rose'. I had that rose come as well, and its leaves, growth-habit, flowers and fragrance were all very different. I don't have 'Lyda Rose' anymore, as it was intended to be a gift, and has since been given.

'Lyda Rose' arrived May 1, potted in 2-gal

'Lyda Rose' as of June 2

on June 19

I think what I got is some sort of multiflora-rambler with some repeat. RVR has a few ramblers with one "r" listed for repeat. It was growing into a sort of arching-weeping form for a bit, and then that thick 3'-long cane came out...and I see lots of new growth emerging from the base at the soil line, as well as lots of lateral growth coming from older shoots. It really looks like the kind of rose that spent some time building a base to generate further reserves, and is now poised to shoot to the stars. I spent some time today really looking at it -- and trying to decide if I could put it "somewhere" and just let it go, seeing how it does. But about the only space I have for that is between the garage and the fence. Or perhaps I'll do a little "renegade gardening" and stick it in the empty lot down the street with a bunch of weed-trees in the back.

:-)

~Christopher

    Bookmark   September 4, 2013 at 11:06PM
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Kippy(SoCal zone 10. Sunset Zone 24)

That is such a cute rose Christopher, has to be a home for it some where. Other than the abandoned lot

    Bookmark   September 4, 2013 at 11:43PM
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hoovb zone 9 sunset 23

It does sort of resemble Ballerina, which will do just fine in a weedy, vacant lot. One very tough rose.

    Bookmark   September 6, 2013 at 3:43PM
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jerijen(Zone 10)

Christopher, I haven't looked at this for several days. Your mystery rose looks quite a lot like "Sector Parking"/"San Juan Musk," which we THINK is a sister-seedling to 'Francis E. Lester.' If it's blooming now, I'm probably off-base, but it sure has the same look. (See "Sector Parking" below.)

Jeri

    Bookmark   September 7, 2013 at 6:57PM
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AquaEyes 7a New Jersey

Jeri, thank you for the thoughts, but I feel like there's just something "different" in this one -- foliage is smaller and more rounded, and the flowers aren't what I'd call "clean-single", meaning they seem as though the plant is trying to make more petals but is only halfway successful. Plus, being as the rose came from RVR, I have to look through their inventory, and they don't carry that rose. The closest I've come to similarity in flowers is the rose they're selling as 'Marietta Silva Tarouca' based on their pic of their plant, but the pics on HelpMeFind for this rose seem to show something different -- as compared to RVR's, and also as compared among themselves. Another possibility is 'Lupe's Buttons', but I have yet to see any apricot-coloring to the flowers.

'Marietta Silva Tarouca' at RVR (note the "messy-single" flowers)
https://www.roguevalleyroses.com/rose/marietta-silva-tarouca

'Lupe's Buttons' at RVR (also with "messy-single" flowers)
https://www.roguevalleyroses.com/rose/lupes-buttons

In any case, it doesn't appear to be 'Sweet Chariot', so it will be removed from that planting spot. I think it's some sort of reblooming Multiflora rambler, and I don't have room for anymore climbers -- except maybe in the corner of the garage and fence, in which case it'll be basically hidden until it reaches over the fence into the neighbor's hibiscus. Or maybe it'll get planted down the street and left to go wild. Unless, of course, someone here with more space wants to try it out and see what it does.

:-)

~Christopher

This post was edited by AquaEyes on Tue, Sep 10, 13 at 9:58

    Bookmark   September 8, 2013 at 1:32AM
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alameda/zone 8

I have quite a few bushes of Sweet Chariot and I can pretty much guarantee your rose isn't it. Its really pretty though and I know RVR will send you the correct rose. I just got Lyda Rose from Angel Gardens - yours is lovely, looking forward to seeing mine bloom.
Judith

    Bookmark   September 8, 2013 at 12:26PM
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jerijen(Zone 10)

Lupe's Buttons does show pale apricotbfor us, in cool weather.

Jeri

    Bookmark   September 8, 2013 at 3:59PM
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AquaEyes 7a New Jersey

So, an update. RVR updated its Free Rose List, which (I'm presuming) is made up of roses which didn't sell very well for whatever reason (or were simply far more successful at rooting than anticipated). One new rose listed looked kinda familiar, and I'm wondering if maybe this is what I got as 'Sweet Chariot' last Spring.

:-)

~Christopher

Here is a link that might be useful: 'Sourire d'Orchidee' at HelpMeFind

    Bookmark   January 26, 2014 at 2:34AM
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PortlandMysteryRose(8)

Definitely looks multifloraish. I'm really curious to hear what RVR says. Pondering the possibilities. Carol

    Bookmark   January 26, 2014 at 3:18PM
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bart_2010(8/9 Italy)

Whatever it is, it's beautiful.Such delicate,refined flowers,even more so than a "normal" single...bart

    Bookmark   January 26, 2014 at 4:21PM
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AquaEyes 7a New Jersey

RVR never got back to me, and I think it's actually a bit of a fun challenge to try and figure out what it is. I dug it out of the ground and put it in a random large nursery pot I found last Summer (not sure the size, but definitely bigger than a 5-gallon). I'll see how it seems to want to grow this Spring/Summer, and decide what I'm going to do with it. I have two spots in mind here, or otherwise it's going to my friend to scramble into an old pear tree.

:-)

~Christopher

    Bookmark   January 27, 2014 at 12:33AM
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PortlandMysteryRose(8)

Hey, Christopher.

Thanks for the mystery! Like you, I'm rather enjoying puzzling and sleuthing, and the more often I revisit your photos, the more I believe I've actually seen a rose (or two or three) just like yours. If I could just identify the click in my memory.... I'm wondering if I'm remembering a straight up blush-colored multiflora? I believe that the species can develop pale pink coloring like yours, although your rose's petals seem a bit more...ruffled?...than the species. Could RVR have mixed up something which used to grow on multiflora rootstock? I know that it's an own-root nursery, but....

Jeri's suggestion of something Francis E. Lesterish seems very close (or more than close). However, Francis and its relative seem to have slightly wider petals than your imposter and the flowers seem to have a character that's subtley different somehow. Your rose's petals curl forward like the species while I believe Francis' petals are flatter or even somewhat recurved as they age. Jeri's photos show something similar occuring. However, your rose is a baby, and I would only have seen mature specimens of Francis and have never seen its relative.

Impressive RVR site searching! Sourire looks close, but I think the petal count would be higher even on a baby, and those spaces between the petals on your imposter just seem too gap-toothed to match the Sourire images that surfaced on the internet. Maybe someone who's either grown this rose or has seen this rose in person will be able to confirm or deny.

If I were a gambler and wished to pick the closest thing to a sure thing given my faulty memory and all the detailed photos I've been perusing, I'd put my money on Jeri's suggestion. If I were looking for a little excitement, I'd continue searching through the pages of dusty rose tomes and obscure internet sites....

Carol

This post was edited by PortlandMysteryRose on Mon, Jan 27, 14 at 3:21

    Bookmark   January 27, 2014 at 2:44AM
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