HPs beyond Baronne Prevost

zaphod42December 31, 2011

So, up to this point I've been walking on the safe side when it comes to rose selection and I'm interested in taking a more calculated risk or maybe making a higher maintenance choice. Early on I was warned away from HPs because they were difficult or prone to BS, etc....They also always seem to grab my attention in photos. I have Baronne Prevost. Where should I go from there? I'm working on getting together a Rogue Valley order and would like to add one from their collection if possible. Something on the darker end of the pinks? Thanks!

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jerijen(Zone 10)

FWIW, Baronne Prevost has always grown clean here.
But it's almost a "Lone Ranger" when it comes to HP-types here, although "Barbara's Pasture Rose" also does well for us, too.

We have grown quite a few other HPs (tho I admit -- not recently. I quit!) but with no real successes.

Jeri in Coastal Ventura Co., SoCal

    Bookmark   December 31, 2011 at 3:19PM
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I don't know if it helps, but of the three dark red HPs RVR currently lists which are rated to your zone, Duke of Edinburgh looks least like Dr. Huey root stock as a garden plant. HMF states it is susceptible to mildew, but I don't know if that's an issue where you are. I certainly wouldn't suggest Baron Girod de l'Ain based upon how truly awful it was here in SoCal over quite a few years. I kept it in hopes it would settle in and behave, but it had far different ideas. Kim

    Bookmark   December 31, 2011 at 3:42PM
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Mildew is not a primary concern here. I'm sure it could pop up occasionally, but not regularly from what I've been led to believe. BS on the other hand is common. Duke of Edinburgh was one of my first choices. It had been listed on a previous forum thread as a favorite.

What is so problematic regarding HPs? Is it just that they are mildew prone, or are there other issues that make them less than ideal specimens?

    Bookmark   December 31, 2011 at 6:35PM
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mad_gallica(zone 5 - eastern New York)

They are blackspot prone, almost as much as modern HTs. They also seem to grow poorly own-root. (at least in this part of the world) Mike Lowe was quite fond of them, and found out he really needed to learn how to graft to grow and sell them.

So basically, in current rose terms, they are neither fish nor fowl. They require HT culture but don't provide the HT quantity of bloom. They also aren't well adapted to how roses are being sold. Someday, a boutique nursery will open up that sells roses on rootstock, but I'm not holding my breath.

    Bookmark   December 31, 2011 at 6:53PM
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I grow Hybrid Perpetuals, and really like them. They get blackspot, but this has not reduced hardiness.

Some of them do not repeat bloom as well as the Bourbons.

The Hybrid Perpetuals give a beautiful June flush, and scattered blooms later in the season.

I find them easy to grow in my organic garden.

    Bookmark   December 31, 2011 at 6:53PM
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zaphod, HPs arose from a completely different gardening and rose world. They were popular Victorian and Edwardian exhibition types where the perfection of the individual flower, with NO foliage, was considered. English Boxes full of perfectly rounded flowers were shown and judged. Most "gardens" were on larger estates with "professional gardeners" in attendance to bring them to their blooming perfection in their season. Land and labor were available to the landed gentry and these roses were never expected to be good garden specimen, nor to be beautiful much of the year. When the roses came into their season, the rose shows occurred and expeditions to the rose garden were made to enjoy them. Once they had passed their prime, the rose garden portion was pretty much ignored, visits being made to the other sections of the garden which were then at their peak, instead. The roses were left to the gardeners to tend, clean and prepare for next year's display.

Many of them were raised and selected primarily for their flowers, much as today's exhibition roses. As long as they produced the perfect flowers, it honestly didn't matter what the plants were like. Disease wasn't an issue as the air over European cities was far from "clean" when they were at their peak. Higher sulfur heating oils and coals were the norm and nightly rains of sulfur bathed the roses preventing most fungal outbreaks. Later in their run, many old rose authors reported the roses had 'declined' or 'deteriorated' as evidenced by their increasing susceptibility to fungal attacks.

Teas and HTs were becoming the fashion and were strongly entrenched by the turn of the Century, during and after the World Wars. Development of the HP and Bourbon classes ceased and many were bred into and absorbed by the HT class.

We have much fewer resources to throw at the roses as well as much less land upon which to grow them. Most of us haven't the various gardens to enjoy when one isn't at its prime, instead utilizing the roses throughout our landscape, or as our primary landscaping choices. Our roses have to be "on" all the time, or as much as the weather and climate demand. It takes a climate which mimics the original in which they were selected to encourage them to look as good as they were intended. It seems the closest are those of the more northern states as very many are just plain horrid here in the long growing seasons.

So, yes, many do tend to be quite susceptible to diseases for the same reason many earlier moderns are. They were selected for flower production and perfection with little attention paid to health. You have to remember that was the usual case until fairly recent times. Well into the 70s, many breeders didn't pay that much attention to "health" or "disease resistance" as that mainly meant the plant's ability to resist disease between sprays. Resistance without spraying wasn't as widely sought until a relatively short time ago. Fortunately, some did occur and is now more easily determined as the amount of spraying is no where near what it once was. Our earlier modern roses could be said to have declined or deteriorated as the HPs were said to have because we're not spraying them regularly, just as changing conditions eliminated the nightly sulfurous rains.

You can probably find some which are suited to your micro climate that don't require extreme measures to grow successfully, but they'll probably be more the exception than the rule. I fear you'll have to kiss a lot of frogs until you discover the princes of the bunch. Good luck. Kim

    Bookmark   December 31, 2011 at 7:47PM
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Hmmm, so what you're saying is I need to find a gardener who'll work really cheap... :)

Very interesting how class and society played a role in the development of roses. As an aside, people in general tend to romanticize much of Victorian ideals and 'simpler' times...until you hear things like 'nightly sulfurous rains' and it no longer sounds as appealing.

Knowing historic origins though gets me thinking about practical applications. Maybe when planting HPs, locating them amid a mixed cottage bed behind some fuller mid-late summer flowers. I've got some Russian Sage and Six Hills Giant Catmint that might work to cover some straggly foliage on the HPs.

Also interesting is the info that these work better grafted vs. own root. May have to check out Pickering instead.

    Bookmark   January 1, 2012 at 9:59AM
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mad_gallica(zone 5 - eastern New York)

If you like historical trivia...

I'm a longtime garden volunteer at a local house museum. A couple of years ago, a bunch of us got together to go over the original purchasing ledgers to see if we could produce a somewhat accurate plant list for the large, formal garden. Unfortunately, a very large number of the garden purchases were not itemized. So, for example, the entire stocking of the rose garden was simply listed as one large payment to the landscape designer.

However, in the late 1930's, there were several purchases of listed HPs. The theory is that they were bought not to go in the rose garden, but as plantings around various outbuildings. The interesting thing about this, is that with one exception, an oddball yellow that was brand new at the time, every single one of those HPs can be ordered from Pickering today. It's only about 6 or 8 varieties, but they are quite familiar names. It honestly makes me wonder if the lists of commercially available HPs has really changed that little in the last 80 years.

    Bookmark   January 1, 2012 at 11:30AM
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Your idea of using the perennials to cover the sparse HP foliage is a very romantic one, but remember, these roses weren't used in mixed borders originally. Gertrude Jekyll was responsible for popularizing that style of gardening, and that came toward the end of the HP run. Previous use was most successful in "rose gardens" where the roses were the main attraction and little else competed for resources, including air circulation and sun. Putting more foliage around them to increase the evaporation, therefore humidity, and reduce the air circulation and increase shade is bound to increase fungal infection.

I'm not surprised the list of commercially available HPs hasn't changed much in nearly a century. Those which were common in the 1930s, like those more common today, would likely be the more easily propagated and the most successful over the greatest areas of rose growing. Only the specialty growers would dare offer the more esoteric, more 'demanding' varieties. Specialty growers would have less invested in the production of individual plants and would produce them in far smaller quantities. They would be much better suited to growing the unsold ones on in pots to wait for someone to order them than a larger, mass producer who rotates the crops like a mass food producer. They would have more individual attention from a "rose nut" than plants grown by a "producer" who treats them like a seasonal crop. Kim

    Bookmark   January 1, 2012 at 11:50AM
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It's true that HPs can be prone to blackspot, and that they may or may not repeat very well after the initial spring flush, but I have a few that do very well for me.

Druschki Rubra has a cerise red flower and a less-double form then you'd think of when you picture HPs. Repeat is good and blackspot results in 50% defoliation or less. (I say that I spray, but circumstances have prevented me from getting my sprayer into gear past early June for the last two years.)

Union Redwood Cemetery is a found HP that stays a bit on the small side for me and blooms BEAUTIFULLY and reliably throughout the year.

Not a dark HP like you asked for, but Marchionesse of Londonderry is a beautiful pale pink with an upright habit and good repeat. BS resistance is non-existant, but she performs well in spite of it.

HTH (and Happy New Year!)

    Bookmark   January 1, 2012 at 1:24PM
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Pardon me, but my emotional side has kicked in on this topic. I feel like HPs are taking a beating in this post, and no one who reads it will ever buy one again, and the nurseries who sell them will never again move one out of their inventory. Facts like disease and air circulation are stubborn things, but I think experimentation is worth a shot. I have Marchesa Bocella, keeps good foliage and is QUITE disease resistant including BS (and/or the other spotting disease they get) and Rose de Rescht. Both are DPs not HPs, but they ARE experiments in my garden.

So, zaphod42, I'd try a few, own-root and grafted. You can see Krista's rose list by clicking on her username. Try some of hers. As far as air circulation, imho, finding a happy medium would be my goal. They're going to get black spot and partially defoliate no matter what so planting some companions that would disguise that situation seems reasonable. After all, eliminating disease with these roses isn't the issue or the goal, making them tolerable in the garden is. If they're going to be fairly naked but produce beautiful roses for a period of time, then making you forget they're semi-ugliness as shrubs is all-important.

I try to find as much info on a plant as I can by looking them up on HMF, checking the Gardens tab and finding out where they're grown, possibly emailing the growers in my region & asking their opinions. One thing I do is Google Search images of a plant and follow the photo to the original website for more info.

Perhaps it's pie-in-the-sky (or maybe not), but you should try them and see for yourself. Personally, I would not try most of them because I don't have the chill they need, but once you find some with the best chance in your garden, you should go for it. You might strike gold for your garden. Reading the old rose gardening books (free online via Googles Books) might shed light on Victorian gardening habits and styles.


Here is a link that might be useful: If only sweat were irrigation...

    Bookmark   January 1, 2012 at 2:09PM
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Tessiess, SoCal Inland, 9b, 1272' elev

Hi zaphod,

Here is my Baronne Prevost on March 17, 2011. On the left is White Lady Banks. Both it and Baronne Prevost were just starting to bloom.

I adore Baronne Prevost! It has been a wonderful rose for me and blooms prolifically throughout most of the year. I got it as a band from Vintage Gardens in late 2003 or early 2004. There was a wildfire that swept through the area in October 2003, and EVERYTHING was scorched. All the vegetation you see in the pic has regrown since then. I replanted roses to replace the ones (mostly ramblers) the fire destroyed. The WLB is growing over the charred skeleton of one of the fire's victims. The stream in the foreground is spring-fed and sometimes runs year-round, but in some years it goes dry for several of the hottest months of the summer. Baronne Prevost has been surprisingly drought-tolerant and has never needed rescue irrigation in the summer. Neither has White Lady Banks. Mermaid on the other hand does to prevent a lot of die back.

I've never fertilized Baronne Prevost. There is actually a rose between WLB and BP. It is Awakening that was planted at the same time as the others, also as a band. Like all wichuranas I've planted in that area, it has never done well. In the pic you can see a little loose hay (alfalfa) that I tried giving some of my roses as an experiment this year. It didn't like it and reacted by mildewing. Baronne Prevost didn't get any of that hay. It has remained beautifully clean-leaved and healthy for me. I have never sprayed a rose and figure if they need it, I don't want them. I'd estimate BP is 12 to 15 feet tall, way above my head. It grows however it wants.;) It has never been pruned or even dead-headed.

Here is the same rose on April 6, 2011:

I don't think I've seen a more magnificent sight than the hybrid perpetual beds in bloom at Eurodesert Roses (about 90 miles east of my location). I had the good fortune to go visit and tour the grounds before the nursery was closed. I brought back multiple of the hp's, and they've been very rewarding and trouble free for me. People told Cliff Orent he couldn't grow hybrid perpetuals in Southern California but he did it anyway, and am I ever glad because those mother plants have been great additions to my no-spray garden. Not a one has shown any blackspot--however the blackspot pressure in my garden is low (I did get some this year which was an unpleasant surprise, none on hp's, just on both my teas and on a found rose). Mildew can be a problem here, and so can rust, but my hp's had no rust and only a minor amount of mildew on a few. For me, they are healthy, easy to grow, and require no pampering.


    Bookmark   January 1, 2012 at 2:30PM
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Thanks, Sherry! Very good advice and what I was hoping someone would contribute. If your garden is more landscaping around your house where a Knock Out is going to work best, these roses are definitely not suitable for your use. If you're expecting them to do full time duty of always being "on stage" as you could expect many modern roses to be, they're not suitable. Too much of the disappointment and bad rap have come from just such poor selection and inappropriate expectations. Reading the Thomas and Beales books about old roses leads you to think these are going to be your perfect OGR Icebergs or Knock Outs and they won't. Looking at them through historically appropriate eyes and providing them with horticulturally appropriate conditions with suitably appropriate expectations could well lead to some wonderful discoveries. But, that won't happen until more education and research are accomplished. Your suggestion is what I was waiting to hear. Thanks! Kim

    Bookmark   January 1, 2012 at 2:37PM
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Thanks, Kim! I was hoping someone would not blow me out of the discussion as a hopeless, ignorant boob! (Unlikely on this forum but not unheard of.) HPs are definitely out of my perview, but I do think gardeners should grow what thrills them until the thrill is gone anyway. Sometimes it goes, and sometimes it stays. :)) Ya don't know until you try 'em. The thought of achieving success and establishing an oasis of these roses in a garden is about the most exciting thing I can think of!


Here is a link that might be useful: If only sweat were irrigation...

    Bookmark   January 1, 2012 at 4:08PM
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You're welcome! I agree with you, but I want to make sure when someone in a less suitable climate decides to embark on that task, they do so with eyes wide open. You've seen what they can become in a longer growing season in Tessie's garden. She and Cliff had the disease freedom due to aridity. Imagine Tessie's plant in your backyard or in some of the more recent patches of dirt the realtors call "gardens". Not all are that rampant, but as a class, that's what you can easily expect from many of them. In longer, warmer climates, many are pillar roses, suitable for growth on fences and walls, tripods, obelisks, etc. Our traditional pruning methods were developed with this class of roses in mind. Now, you can see the reasons behind what has been repeated ad infinitum. Kim

    Bookmark   January 1, 2012 at 4:25PM
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Campanula UK Z8

Well, Zaphod, I do not grow any in my garden because they just don't look right (I have a rambling weedpit of an allotment - nothing could be further from Sissinghurst or the like)but, there is, imo, one of the most beautiful roses and worth any fussing in the doctor - not Huey but Souvenir du Dr.Jamain. I have planted this for customers several times. If not planted in bright sun,(north wall?) this is a tough, hardy and lovely rose. BS is less an issue than PM but this can be managed with good watering and ventilation (is there some bourbon in the lineage?)

    Bookmark   January 2, 2012 at 3:53PM
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"(is there some bourbon in the lineage?)" I don't know, campanula, but with enough in the gardener, mildew and black spot simply wouldn't matter! LOL! Kim

    Bookmark   January 2, 2012 at 4:05PM
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palustris(Z6 MA)

I would recommend 'Baronne Prevost', 'Joasine Hanet', 'Caroline de Sansal', 'Souvenir du Dr. Jamain', and 'John Hopper' as reliable sturdy roses with some repeat in the fall.

In zone 5 or 6 I would expect 'Baronne Prevost' to make a sturdy upright bush to about 4' with pruning. 'Joasine Hanet' is also an upright bush to about 4'. I find 'John Hopper' to be less stout of cane, but still very upright growing. 'Caroline de Sansal' seems to be more of a sprawler and more open growing and the canes do reach about 5' for me in zone 4. I have grown 'Souvenir du Dr. Jamain' in zone 4 for almost 30 years and it has rather long canes to 6' that are easy to train.

All these roses are grown in a mixed borders with annuals, perennials and other woody landscape shrubs. They all seem to lose some foliage after flowering which I simply ignore as there is so much going on around them. It doesn't seem to affect their viability as the youngest of these was planted in 1997. There visibility in the garden is outstanding when they are in bloom and they just disappear into the riot of color and foliage when not in bloom.

    Bookmark   January 2, 2012 at 4:34PM
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palustris(Z6 MA)

I should have mentioned that these roses are all grown own root.

    Bookmark   January 2, 2012 at 4:36PM
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lou_texas(8a N Central TX)

Zaphod, I wasn't going to chime in because my climate is so different from yours, but since Sherry did, I will too. I love my American Beauty (and yes I know some say it's not really American Beauty but this rose by another name would still smell as sweet). Her leaves are perfect with no black spot, and she's a healthy and vigorous plant. She's not prolific and repeats only sporadically, but I'm glad I have her. She has catmint growing around her ankles and looks great in bloom or not. Lou

    Bookmark   January 2, 2012 at 5:12PM
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TNY78(7a-East TN)

I ended up with Baronne Prevost by accident. The nursery that I ordered it from sent it instead of the less popular Baron Girod de l�Ain (they nursery did send me the correct rose, and also let me keep BP). I've actually liked my Baronne Prevost. It's only in its second year, it is ownroot, and hasn 't grown too much...but after seeing the picture of him full grown, I may need to re-evaluate his current location! The blooms are very beautiful, but its foliage leaves something to be desired I'm sorry to say in my spray free garden. But, there's always the option of planting low-growing healthy roses or other perennials to hide the bare canes (plus, its a good excuse to add some more smaller roses).

Other than BP, and Baron Girod de l�Ain (which I havne't had the terrible BS problems with, that he's is known for, but also haven't gotten a single bloom/bud from in 2 years). The only other one I have that is large enough for me to comment on is Schoen Ingeborg. This one is ownroot from Vintage and has been very healthy. I also really love the look of its blooms...sort of centerfolia-like in my humble opinion :)

Here is a link that might be useful: Schoen Ingeborg

    Bookmark   January 2, 2012 at 11:09PM
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Mendocino_Rose(z8 N CA.)

I think that amoung the HPs there are some really good roses. Many aren't any more disease prone than many HTs. I know I'm lucky to have rich clay and fairly dry summers. Two outstanding HPs are Anna Alexieff and Henry Nevard. Henry Nevard is actually one of my favorite roses. It is strong growing, well foliated, and a beautiful deep wine red.

    Bookmark   January 3, 2012 at 10:51AM
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Lou brought up American Beauty which reminded me of an acquaintance who said her mother grew this rose locally for years and years - and not grafted on Fortuniana. It surprised me. Does anyone else grow it in Florida or the south? Another HP that I've seen available in Florida is Anna de Diesbach. She's beautiful in photos. How is she for health, fragrance and repeat? Does she perform well up north?

Last night I was browsing HPs on HMF and Rogue Valley's website. I saw Arrilago is grown by Malcolm Manners at FSC. It's very pretty. Anyone grow it? I didn't even get through the A's in my browsing but was surprised by how many were described as 'very disease resistant'. I'm curious about this class's performance in the southeast and Zone 9.


Here is a link that might be useful: If only sweat were irrigation...

    Bookmark   January 3, 2012 at 11:36AM
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Henry Nevard and Anna Alexieff are both growing my my garden as well, and both are lovely. HN got pretty bad rust this fall, and Anna A comes down with PM from time to time, but both are keepers. 2011 was a particularly bad year for diseases here. Lots of roses that are generally healthy struggled this year. No doubt it was due to weather variations. I do not spray during the growing season, just once at pruning time.


    Bookmark   January 3, 2012 at 12:09PM
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lou_texas(8a N Central TX)

Sherry, just for the record, my American Beauty is own-root from ARE. Don't know if that makes a large difference in how well she is growing for me or not and don't know if other areas of the country need this rose to be grafted.

The next hybrid perpetual I want to get is Reine des Violettes - just as soon as I can find the right place for her. Another hp that I've been tempted by is Souvenir du Docteur Jamain. Does anyone know what kind of thorns or prickles he has? Lou

    Bookmark   January 3, 2012 at 12:37PM
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Sherry, Anna de Diesbach is a lovely rose, and does well here. It has reliable repeat bloom, but does not repeat quite as well as Mrs. John Laing. It's very fragrant. It does get blackspot and will drop leaves in summer time. However, this has not diminished its hardiness.

I'm adding Arrillaga to the garden next spring, looking forward to seeing it in bloom!

    Bookmark   January 3, 2012 at 4:44PM
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I emailed three botanical gardens within 2 hrs of where I live. Two carry no HPs. The Chicago Botanical Gardens carry Baron Girod de l'Ain, Gloire de Ducher, and Jacques Cartier. There spray statement is "The Garden maintains an integrated pest management program that emphasizes natural controls and minimal spraying."

    Bookmark   January 3, 2012 at 4:52PM
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Zaphod, I think my Swedish climate is fairly similar to yours although Wisconsin winters may be a little colder. Are you near Madison by any chance? I spent 6 months of summer, fall and early winter there a long time ago. )

I have only four HP's and would recommend two of them strongly, Reine des violettes and Alfred Colomb. The latter is a dark red. Both are clean in my no spray garden at least until fall when Alfred may get some BS but keeps most leaves. Rdv is clean the entire season. I grow both as free standing shrubs but Alfred gets less air circulation because of the hedge behind it.

    Bookmark   January 3, 2012 at 5:35PM
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aimeekitty(9-10, SW 18)

I'm no expert, but...
I've been very pleased with Larry Daniels so far. It reblooms a lot for me and I haven't had any problems with it. I'm guessing it's roughly HP as HMF lists it and Grandmother's Hat as that...

Other than that I have a roughly 2 year old Baronne and La Reine. Both I find lovely, but don't have a strong repeat (yet...?) we'll see how I like them this coming year when they get a bit bigger. No serious disease issues, but I have very few disease issues in my area... (dry socal)

all of mine are own-root.

Also have Reine Des Violettes, which once she was moved to a pot from my very alkaline soil, did very very well.

    Bookmark   January 3, 2012 at 6:19PM
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I like most of my hp's though some get "damask crud" or maybe the blackspotted leaves stay on longer than most. Some of my favorites:
Anna de Diesbach wonderful fragrance, good vigor, just beautiful

Yolande d'Aragon sometimes classed as an hp

Vick's Caprice this one is my favorite. Started out unimpressive but last year had great rebloom, with blooms all along the canes. Very pretty and fragrant. Healthiest leaves of all .

Ferdinand Pichard mostly blooms in spring, but is special.
The plant has good vigor but doesn't get huge here.

Baronne Prevost reblooms, makes a nice plant, suckers

General Jacqueminot hard to beat the fragrance

Gloire de Chedane Guinnoisseau has good repeat, huge blooms
Grandmother's Hat blooms very well and I like it but it's bs prone here.
Marchessa Boccella is healthy, repeats very well, is fragrant and vigorous..my most vigorous hp

I'm glad to hear Henry Nevard is good because I have heard bad things about it and haven't tried it because of that. Just goes to show that you can't always rely on other people's experience.

    Bookmark   January 4, 2012 at 10:33AM
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jerijen(Zone 10)

FWIW, in Southern California, 'Ferdinand Pichard' can easily achieve 7 ft. tall and wide.
And it is a lovely rose. We can get a nice fall flush on him, tho it does not equal the spring bloom.

We lost him, when he was smothered under a big Mme. Alfred Carriere, but he is one rose I would re-plant, if I had space and water.


    Bookmark   January 4, 2012 at 1:08PM
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That's really interesting Jeri. Both Ferdinand and Baron Girod de'l Ain were mildewy and rusty in Newhall where it was traditionally very arid. Ferdinand Pichard also suffered from severe black spot. I can understand the high evaporation rate contributing to the mildew, but they were high enough up the slope to be spared any real humidity from the turf on the golf course. I grew both own root, propagated from Pickering plants at The Huntington for quite a few years until I decided they weren't worth the space they occupied. I was quite interested in both because of their unusual flowers and Ferdinand Pichard is the source of all the modern striped which have proliferated out of Ralph Moore's striped minis.

Arrillaga was toward the top of the slope where it grew to enormous proportions. The flowers were interesting but the foliage never lived up to expectations. There was always something wrong with it. Everest grew and flowered marvelously, but it suffered from mildew much of the time. It was a ROYAT plant I purchased when Pat Wiley wrote it deserved more attention than her customers had shown it and it was in its final offering. Henry Nevard was also an own root plant I propagated from The Huntington out of Pickering and he grew and flowered well, but the blooms fried constantly. I seldom got to enjoy one, though they did set off the rust quite nicely. My Paul Neyron was propagated from Sequoia's ancient, huge one and it hated every position I planted it in. Rust, rust and more rust, though the flowers could be spectacular.

Portlands grew marvelously there, every one I tried. Glendora and Grandmother's Hat were perfection all the time. Oddities such as Pilarcitos were perfection all the time. I figured the climate and micro climates had to be decent for the many hundreds of other roses of other types and classes to be as trouble free as they were, so the issues with Bourbons and HPs had to be class related more than climate. Kim

    Bookmark   January 4, 2012 at 1:40PM
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jerijen(Zone 10)

Well, I agree with you Kim. On the whole, I think HPs and Bourbons REALLY don't like to live here.

But I had two Ferdinand Pichards (one sent as something else from Heirloom -- like almost everything I had from Heirloom). Both were good, but the Heirloom one was exceptional, until MAC killed it. AND Baronne Prevost was great here -- but those were the ONLY good HPs for us, and so I cannot recommend the class, on the whole.

Nor have I EVER grown a Bourbon that was successful here.

Now -- I should add one ammendment. We have a few FOUND HPs (presumed HPs) that are OK-to-Great for us.

"De la Vina Mystery" is terrific. Rusts in late November, but it otherwise clean, and blooms all the time, if deadheaded.
"Old Town Novato" has OCCASIONAL problems, but is mostly clean, except in late Fall.
"Linsley Plot Quartered Pink" is bulletproof. "Of the family of" Baronne Prevost, perhaps . . .


    Bookmark   January 4, 2012 at 6:51PM
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idixierose(z8b Coastal SC)

Chiming in from lower South Carolina --
HPs did OK in the plantation garden where I worked two years ago.
we had Baronne Prevost, La Reine, Paul Neyron and Marchesa Bocella.

The bushes had been purchased from Antique Rose Emporium and planted the year before I began working the garden. In their second year, BP, La R and PN began to fill out and developed into bushes about 3 feet wide and 4 to 5 feet high. They developed tall canes with few branches --
which made for nice long stems on the flowers. They put on a big show in spring and had a few blooms in the fall. la Reine and Baronne were literally covered in big fat pink blooms. Paul Neyron was a tall narrow bush, with enormous 6-inch pink blooms. very fragrant, too.

Marchesa B. did not grow as tall -- it has a completely different style of bush than the other 3 HPs. It's foliage is smaller and the canes are more branched. Lots of blooms, but no long stems.

The bushes did not seem prone to blackspot, however I did spray regularly. The real disease magnet in that garden was Souvenir de la Malmaison.

The HPs seemed to respond well to generous feeding.

    Bookmark   January 6, 2012 at 8:30AM
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I'm not surprised by your comment that the HPs responded well to generous feeding. It takes a lot of resources to generate large canes with large, very full blooms. Statements such as "roses are gross feeders" arose from just these roses, as did our exhibition style of pruning. Many will run to much blind wood if allowed to grow unchecked. The closer the rose's performance is to a Hybrid Tea, the smaller and better branched the plant will be and the more flowers it will generate without harsher pruning.

Later introductions such as Symphony, 1935 Weigand, resembled HPs very much in appearance, but performed more like HTs. If you look at the parentage of the variety, it can often clue you in to what to expect. Roses such as Frau Karl Druschki, though resembling an HP in growth and almost flower style, are actually HTs by definition, as is Symphony. HPs were European OGRs bred with Teas. The more Tea and HT infused, the closer to an HT the rose became. Symphony looks like an HP, but it was a cross of Drushki and Souv. de Claudius Pernet, a Pernetiana or even Hybrid Foetida. It produces much less elongated wood with most branches terminating in flower repeatedly. A far cry from many of the group.

Hugh Dickson, 1905, is another decent example of a Hybrid Tea by breeding which resembles an HP and often performs like one. Knowing what's behind the rose can frequently give you a very good heads-up about what to expect from it. Kim

    Bookmark   January 6, 2012 at 11:45AM
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jerijen(Zone 10)

The phrase: "Roses are gross feeders" has ALWAYS conjured up in my mind a cartoon image of a very very fat man in a too-tight 18th-Century military uniform, firmly grasping a knife and fork as he addresses an over-filled plate.

"Gross feeders . . . " INDEED!


    Bookmark   January 6, 2012 at 7:12PM
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zjw727(Coastal Oregon Zone 8b)

This is such a fascinating thread, and it addresses so many things I have been pondering in the last few months.I'm so glad to have found it. And re: "roses as gross feeders"...LOL! Like a buxom Belle of the Nineties gorging to keep up her figure.

    Bookmark   September 30, 2012 at 6:41PM
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minflick(9b/7, Boulder Creek, CA)

Hah! I wasn't thinking of a Buxom Belle... More like one of the English Royal Dukes, who was so fat he had an arc cut out of the dining table at his club so he could more easily reach his plate. Now, THAT'S a gross feeder!

    Bookmark   September 30, 2012 at 9:01PM
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Interesting discussion on Baronne Prevost & the HP�s. I�ve had BP for 10+ years in my z4 garden & normally the canes die back to 12" or less each year. When they regrow the canes always are fully cover with leaves, no bare knobby knees shown. A couple of winters have been mild & left me with 3-4� live canes. If I leave these long canes I get new foliage growing only on the tops of these canes & the 3-4� surviving section turns into the bare knobby knees that are typically attributed to HP�s. As a result I always prune my HP�s back to about 12" now. A while back I read someplace that the proper way to prune HP�s in the spring was to cut them back to about 12-16" tall which is what Mother Nature normally does for me in my area. Has anyone else heard of this or tried this in a warmer zone to see if it will give them a fully foliated HP each year? I�ve also heard that HP�s are heavy feeders & I usually feed my BP more than my HT�s .

    Bookmark   September 30, 2012 at 10:44PM
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AHHHHHH!!!! the computer gremlims turned my apostrophes into some goofy looking symbols � how does a single apostrophe turn ito all these symbols?

    Bookmark   September 30, 2012 at 11:41PM
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I find HPs exhilarating. While many are tough critters which will thrive if left alone, they were bred with Victorian-era culture in mind; and I enjoy challenging myself to successfully play the role of a dedicated Victorian horticulturist. I enjoy their first burst of bloom, a thrilling spectacle by any measure. The fat buds, the immense blossoms--have I pruned and fertilized just right, how much should I disbud, will they open properly, will the weather cooperate? I feel that I am truly in touch with our rose forebears when I undergo the rigors of attending to HPs, helping them achieve their special sort of perfection. But it's more than that. The HP gardener has a special relationship, a special feeling of community, of shared tribulations and challanges, with his HPs. The triumph of the HP specimen is more than the rose succeeding--it is the gardener succeeding, and in a more participatory way than with other roses. At present, I grow 'Duc de Bragance', 'Gloire de Chedane-Guinoisseau', 'Souvenir du Dr. Jamain', four specimens of 'Roger Lambelin' (a most challenging rose indeed!), 'Comtesse Cecile de Chabrillant', 'Amedee Philibert', foundling 'Benny Lopez', and another foundling which I obtained from HRG decades ago, and the label of which long ago bleached out so I don't even know the study name. When pruning time comes, I smile when I step up to an HP; "now to test my skill," I say to myself. Revel in HPs, show your stuff, say I!

    Bookmark   October 1, 2012 at 12:04AM
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zjw727(Coastal Oregon Zone 8b)

How inspiring!!! I want to plant them all...in my cold and dreary English-style climate!

    Bookmark   October 1, 2012 at 1:36PM
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I'm reviving this thread because I think it is highly educational. The Hybrid Perpetuals are a rather messy bag of roses but there are a few standouts that can be recommended for today's rose garden. BARONNE PREVOST (1841) has already been mentioned but not its deeper, purply-pink sport ARDOISEE DE LYON (1858). Then there is MARCHESA BOCCELLA (see also Jacques Cartier, 1842) which in my opinion should be classified as a portland. No garden of old roses would be complete without the lovely soft purple REINE DES VIOLETTES (1860), which is also thornless. Speaking of thorns, there aren't many on the massive YOLANDE D'ARAGON (1843).

    Bookmark   February 20, 2014 at 3:21PM
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