Riddle me this Batman

bluebonsai101(6a PA)March 3, 2010

I received this admittedly not very good looking hybrid by mistake 4 years ago (I was supposed to be getting H. cybister) and it blooms like this every year so I was hoping someone that deals with hybrids could explain.

Here is a pic of flower #1:

It is obviously a single flower and nothing special at that....but if you look at the other flower to the left you can see it is obviously very different so here is a better pic (although not in focus) of that one:

So, why is one flower trying to be double and the other flower not? By the way, there is total symmetry in this....there are 4 flowers total, 2 opposite flowers are normal and the other 2 opposite flowers are weird.

Any thoughts on why it does this would be welcomed :o) Dan

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Hi, Batman!

I am no expert, but I've see this sort of thing before.

You have an unstabled double. It may or may not be a diploid. I am beginning to suspect that sometimes they do not remove the seed pods from the fields when these beauties bloom. That means that over a period of years, some slip through as being what is in the field when it is not.

The other possibility is that tissue culture techniques produced a mutant.

Whatever, it is NICE! If you can figure out it's ploidy, you should try to cross it with another double. There aren't very many doubled cybister/diploids.



    Bookmark   March 3, 2010 at 7:03PM
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Unfortunately the term "Cybister" has become a trade name, denoting a family,rather than a species. I believe someone has sold you a bulb with Cybister parentage,and, as Ann has said, is probably unstable or mutayed.
It is pretty to me.

    Bookmark   March 3, 2010 at 7:14PM
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I have never seen anything like that before, this is a first for this novice. How interesting!I did not think a single bulb could do that. Thanks for sharing the pics!

    Bookmark   March 3, 2010 at 7:32PM
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Thank you for showing this phenomenon. No, I was not aware of double and single flowers on one scape.
Nevertheless, I assume that the double flowers are the outer (older) pair of flowers, while the younger and smaller buds yield more or less single flowers.
I have always perceived that segments of the firsrt two flowers are somewhat broader. And also the relation of width(upper segment right and left side respectively [the butterfly wings]) TO the width(lower segment right and left side resp.) is higher in the flowers of the outer pair.

The slightly differential evolution disadvantage as to sheer size might also decide on the considerably more conspicuous effect that the inner pair of flowers can not become double, at least not always.

    Bookmark   March 3, 2010 at 8:14PM
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Hi, If I understand you correctly....for 4 years this has been doing the same thing......2 singles and 2 doubles on the same scape? Now, does it ever put out more than one scape and if it does, do any additional scapes also do the same thing?? I don't really have a theory, but this is very interesting especially if it does this every year on every scape!! Guess you've got something kinda special there, and it is sort of cute!!


    Bookmark   March 3, 2010 at 8:54PM
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bluebonsai101(6a PA)

Thanks for the input guys!! To be honest, I've never thought much of this plant so it has sort of hung on by its own strength rather than my outstanding care!! This year it tried to grow in Oct, but I did not water it because I had no room to allow it to grow.....I finally saw a scape a couple weeks back so gave it water and it took off. I had wanted a true H. cybister rather than a hybrid, but got the wrong thing.

Yes, it does this every year, but I can not remember the exact double/single ratio from years past.

This plant has 2 scapes....the first one has 4 flowers.....the first and third were singles, the second and fourth (much smaller) are doubles. It got really heavy so I cut it off and put it in a vase so my wife could appreciate it. The second scape has 3 buds.....I'll have to see how many singles/doubles I get.

I can also say that the single flowers produce a lot of pollen and the doubles produce very little.....maybe not anything of note, but another bizarre factoid for an odd plant.

Honestly, I think I've kept it because it is weird!!! I like odd plants as some of you know......thanks for the interesting input everyone :o) Dan

    Bookmark   March 3, 2010 at 9:09PM
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Hi Dan,

The timing and subject matter of your post is an example of serendipitous synchronicity. I was just getting ready to create a post about a similar oddity when I saw your post. It takes me a long time to do this because of my slow dial-up modem, so it may be tomorrow before you see this response.

I received two bulbs that were supposed to be H. Temptation. When the first flower opened, it was clear that this was not the bulbÂs true identity. I think that the bulb is actually H. Magic Green. However, that is not the reason that your post excites me.

Looking closely at the first flower produced on scape #1 by the bulb which I have tentatively identified as Magic Green, you will see that it has a seventh petal wound around the style. I had already snipped off five filaments for use in cross-pollination. This scape produced two flowers and both have the seventh petal oddity.

In the last photo, (beside papilio one of its chosen pollen donors) you can see that this bulb also produced a normal flower on its second scape. Yes, Ann I am hoping that my bulb is diploid! In the lower left hand corner, you can glimpse one of the petal-wrapped styles. Scape #2 will have three more flowers, and I predict that they will also be normal.

Although yours is a more extreme case, I think that both of our bulbs are examples of polymorphous perversion.

Best regards,


    Bookmark   March 4, 2010 at 12:53AM
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bluebonsai101(6a PA)

Hi Blanca, That is interesting.....I'm sure as pointed out above that there are lots of these around in nurseries, but they get culled out......we just happened to get the ones that slipped through. I have no interest in crossing these with anything of course and actually have very few Hippis anymore to cross on to if I wanted to, but I wish you well in your attempts to generate some new, exciting hybrids! Your pics are fabulous by the way :o) Dan

    Bookmark   March 4, 2010 at 8:16AM
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I can't explain the consistant pattern which this variety displays,with doubles/not doubles, on opposing stems,but doubles do often have single petaled blooms on scapes which also have doubles. I have around a hundred adult Pasadena and I get singles several times a year. If a scape has more than four blooms,the chances go up, as the bloom count does. If you have seven blooms on a scape,almost certainly one will be a single. Other varieties do this too.I believe every one of my doubles,which I've had more than a couple of years,have exhibited this.

    Bookmark   March 4, 2010 at 11:22AM
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bluebonsai101(6a PA)

HI Del, Interesting!! I do not have any doubles so can not comment on this. I think this one is likely an escapee off the farm as it is clearly a very poor double at best. Mine has never had more than 4 flowers/scape, but as I said, it is not exactly pampered :o) Dan

    Bookmark   March 4, 2010 at 12:35PM
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OK hippi's do this, but growers consider this a defective flower because they can't show one flower as the "type" for registration purpoises. Which do you register & name it for the single or the double. They are discarded. I got one that had 2 singles and 2 doubles alternating on the scape and identified it as a "Blushing Bride" at a grocery store marked PINK. It died in an accident unfortunately. Andre Barnhoorn, founder of Barnhoorn Breeding in Holland and formerly director of Research and Breeding at Hadeco
until he and Charles Barnhoorn wrestled to see who got to start their own company and who had to stay with Floris Barnhoorn[who is a really sweet guy to work for I have heard], told me this kind of mutation is not infrequent, but they don't do anything with it.
[There that rumor gets Hadeco for still not bringing that mouth watering miniature "Thai Thai" to market.]

    Bookmark   May 13, 2010 at 8:57PM
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