Neostropsis 'B-Fire'

brom_adorer(Mid-North Coast, NSW)April 30, 2010

I've got a question.

I took a photo of my plant, Neostropsis 'B-Fire'.

When cataloguing it, I looked it up on FCBS and the parents are listed as Nidularium burchellii x Neoregelia 'Fireball'?

Question : Where does the 'tropsis' part of the name come into it? I could not find, Nidularium burchellii, but there is a Canistropsis burchellii, which is what I would have guessed was its parent (because of the 'Stropsis') so does anyone know what is going on?

BA

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LisaCLV(HI)

Ha ha..... I feel a rant coming on. But first I'll answer your question. ;-)

The genus Nidularium has recently been reorganized by Elton Leme, and many of them (generally the stoloniferous ones) are now considered Canistropsis. N. (now C.) burchelli is one of those. The Neo x Nid (or Nid x Neo) hybrids were originally called xNeolarium and then xNiduregelia. I'm not sure why that changed, I suppose it may have come down to precedent, i.e. who was the first person to name the nothogenus (combined name used for bigenerics). If somebody found an earlier use of the name xNiduregelia then presumeably all of the former xNeolariums had to be changed to follow suit. That's just speculation, but at any rate now they've become xNeostropsis. There is still a listing for xNiduregelia, but those contain species that are still considered Nidulariums. The genus listings on FCBS have been updated, but not all of the individual entries have, hence the disparity.

Okay, now for the rant. I have no idea what the name "B-Fire" means, but the plant it was applied to is actually a hybrid of mine. I have since registered it as xNeostropsis Shadeball (admittedly an awkward name, but at least there's a reason for it). At this point the registrar noticed the same parentage and was prompted to probe deeper. On tracing back B-Fire's origins, the trail ended up right back at my doorstep. Up to then I had assumed that someone else must have done the same cross, but no, it was just a case of someone else taking it upon themselves to register something that wasn't theirs.

As many of you know, my feeling is that this type of thing should not be allowed without the hybridizer's permission. The policy lately, however, has been that no plant should be bought, sold or traded without a registered name, which has prompted all sorts of people to register plants that are not theirs to register. The answer I got was that it was my own fault for letting the plant get out while it was still under formula, which seems now to have become an unforgivable sin. Something's wrong with this picture, IMO. We've talked about this before, and I don't really want to reopen that whole can of worms, but I just couldn't let this posting slide by without putting my two cents in! Okay, end of rant.

    Bookmark   April 30, 2010 at 2:17PM
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splinter1804

Hi Lisa,

I was interested reading your answer and am very curious where you say. "The policy lately, however, has been that no plant should be bought, sold or traded without a registered name, which has prompted all sorts of people to register plants that are not theirs to register".

My question is: Is it a policy and if so, who made it how are they going to police it? Or is it just a recommendation?

Also you said "which has prompted all sorts of people to register plants that are not theirs to register". As well as this doesn't it also mean the Bromeliad Cultivar Registry could become full of all types of "junk plants" just because hybridizers can't sell their seedlings under formula.

There, now I've said my two cents worth as well.

All the best, Nev.

    Bookmark   April 30, 2010 at 4:06PM
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LisaCLV(HI)

Hi Nev. I suppose it's not really a "policy" in the sense of it being policed. It's just a stance that is being taken and a message that is being put out there, most vocally by Uncle D., although I haven't detected any major change in mindset with the changing of the guard. I'd call it slightly more than a "recommendation", though, just because of the derisive attitude I have heard expressed towards anyone who releases a hybrid while still under formula.

Don't get me wrong, I am all in favor of order and an organized approach to naming and cataloging, and I do try to play by the rules as much as possible. Bottom line, though, I think it's a breeder's decision to make whether to name it or not. If there is going to be any sort of official policy on the part of the BCR, I feel it should be that cultivars should only be registered by their creators, or by someone whom they have designated as their proxy. Of course this is not enforceable either, and there are lots of grey areas, but that's not really the point. My concern is more about the attitude and the message, and the kind of behavior they promote.

To be fair, Derek has also preached the wisdom of culling hard. You really have to if you're going to give a name to every plant that leaves your nursery. Unfortunately, this part of the message often gets lost in the shuffle. Your point about the registry becoming filled with "junk" is well taken. I think we have seen a fair amount of that already.

Just my opinion, and I didn't mean to hijack the thread. Sorry, B A!

    Bookmark   April 30, 2010 at 8:04PM
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brom_adorer(Mid-North Coast, NSW)

oh, gosh, no worries Lisa! Thanks for the explanation, I kinda thought it might have been a name change.
I don't think there'll ever be a chance of me registering any plants, so feel free to rant about that.
Do you think I should relabel my plant as xNeostropsis 'Shade Ball' or leave it as previously labelled?
Well done for producing a nice hardy brom with good colour.
I like your work! he he
BA

    Bookmark   May 2, 2010 at 5:02AM
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LisaCLV(HI)

I'm not sure what to tell you on that, BA. Naturally my own opinion is that B-Fire is not really a legitimate name, not having gone through what I consider to be the proper channels. That is not the position of the BCR, however. To quote Uncle Derek (who was registrar at the time I submitted my name): "The way things stand at the moment 'B-Fire' has precedence under the ICNCP rules but both names will continue to be used despite what we might say. The King Solomon solution seems to be we leave both names in the Register but link them with some comment under both names." And that is how it currently stands, although the link comments don't appear on FCBS.

To be perfectly honest, however, had I known they were the same plant, I probably would have just let the B-Fire name stand and be done with it. I wasn't in any hurry to name it until I was asked to, so that's on me. The rest was just a case of faulty memory, different priorities and lack of communication. All of the people involved were eventually put in touch by a group email, and we got it sorted out. I don't want to paint anyone as a villain because I don't see it that way. I'd simply like to see the BCR have guidelines in place to address this sort of problem in a more pro-hybridizer way, rather than "last one in is a rotten egg"!

    Bookmark   May 2, 2010 at 1:48PM
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vriesea

I personally am with you Lisa in regards selling/ parting with plants under their formula name(s) I see no problem with it at all , i have at times sold community pots of small seedlings ,now do i have to name them when they are only 3-4 centimetres tall ? like you i am all for keeping it neat and orderly but thats where grex names are usefull ,thats why in Orchids they still use that , this was /has /still is done with Orchids and works very well , so yes a few there get " hyjacked " but there is no way of policing it ,and despite good intend there is a number of plants that are registered that are not up to " scratch " ,but as they are your plants and you can dispose of them in any way you wish ,you just can't name everything ,some people dont care either way they only want a nice plant ( and beauty is in the eye of the beholder ) the problem mostly occurs when someone wants to make money from your name and efforts ,and here in Oz there are a couple of people that seem to try doing this with monetonous regularity , even when caught out they still persist ,I have a number of Vrieseas that i treasure but after all this time i have not named them , why ? just have not got around to it ,its not because they are no good ,and if a plant has become " well" known by a certain name ? than why upset the apple cart and change the name ? as long as the breeder gets the credit ,but sometimes this happens more by innocense than by ill intend ( sometimes )thats my bit on it , By the way that is a very nicely coloured plant , Jack

    Bookmark   May 2, 2010 at 4:11PM
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LisaCLV(HI)

You bring up some interesting and complicated issues with the selling/trading of community pots and/or seeds, Jack. I don't really want to open that can of worms here because it's not relevant to this particular plant. On the other hand, if you'd like to start a new thread, it might be helpful to get a general consensus on that sort of thing.

Or not.... ;-)

    Bookmark   May 2, 2010 at 5:01PM
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brom_adorer(Mid-North Coast, NSW)

All very interesting, so thanks for the read. I'll leave the label as it stands, but put N. 'Shade Ball' on the other side. I have no plans to pass on any plants at this stage, but if I ever do, I'll be sure to leave it with both names.
Thanks again
BA

    Bookmark   May 3, 2010 at 2:10AM
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bromadams(10b)

I'm going to be starting my own xNeostropsis grex shortly. I doubt this will be anything but a novelty.

Neoregelia 'Tunisia' x Canistropsis billbergioides forma azurea

    Bookmark   May 7, 2010 at 12:22PM
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splinter1804

Hi Nick,

That's a nice, very pregnant looking seed capsule you have there. Let's hope it rewards you with lots of interesting and unusual babies.

All the best, Nev.

    Bookmark   May 7, 2010 at 3:56PM
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bromadams(10b)

The first seed pod I pulled out was N Tunisia x Ae orlandiana and I was happy enough to get 6 nice seeds since it was not a fatty at all. The xNeostropsis cross wasn't one I was expecting or really hoping to succeed. I've probably done a dozen crosses with billbergioides as the seed parent and never had it take so I wanted to see if it could be a pollen donor and obviously that works sometimes.

BTW, that Tunisia was a plant I Floreled. It sat around for almost two years full grown and never flowered but it lit up after the florel and had no side effects.

    Bookmark   May 7, 2010 at 9:03PM
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brom_adorer(Mid-North Coast, NSW)

Bromadams, Can you please post a pic of your parent plant? The N. "Tunisia'? Did you cross flowers from the same plant with pollen from multiple bromeliad types? It must have been like bromeliad stew! he he. I'd be interested to see the results,
BA

    Bookmark   May 8, 2010 at 4:04AM
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bromadams(10b)

I put pollen from 5 plants on the Tunisia and three gave me seeds although the one cross produced exactly one seed. That is normal results since I didn't put any Neo pollen on it.

Here is an old pic of the plant from Mar 09. I Florel'd it in Nov 09.

Gratuitous flower shot from February, luckily it doesn't self:

    Bookmark   May 8, 2010 at 8:14AM
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brom_adorer(Mid-North Coast, NSW)

Thanks for that. Is it a smaller plant?
BA

    Bookmark   May 9, 2010 at 4:15AM
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bromadams(10b)

BA, N Tunisia is a smaller plant but not fireball small.

Here is a ripe seed pod from Canistropsis billbergioides forma azurea. I thought that I would get seeds from this last cross and I did. There were quite a few very small seeds. I've now crossed it both ways with different genera.

    Bookmark   May 10, 2010 at 10:30PM
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