Which one is good enough?

udo69November 22, 2009

Hi All,

As in the previous post about my hannibal hybrids, now they show up very nice band and spot leaves. When you have planty of plants, It's very difficult to select plants to register. How about you Lisa and Jack? Basically you might have experiences how to cull. I think different eyes would select different plants. Can any body tell me this basic rule?

Cheers Yong

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bromadams(10b)

I think you've got quite a few winners there.

Here is a link that might be useful: your July post

    Bookmark   November 22, 2009 at 8:17AM
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mike4284m(z10b Ft. Lauderdale, FL)

Wow Yong you've done an incredible job!

I'd say I'm partial to 6,7, and 9 in particular. But as you said, that has a lot to do with personal opinion. They are the ones that caught my eye. Some of the others would be great to hold onto for future work. There is something about 17 that I love if only it could hold those colors on the lower leaves.

Great plants!

    Bookmark   November 22, 2009 at 9:58AM
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avane_gw

Very nice Young!

What I find very interesting is the huge variety you got from the HL x Buckingham grex.

I have no experience in culling yet, but if I have to select 3 of them only, my choices will be:

1 - #6. Even if the zonation is sparse, it makes the contrast to that glowing orange back ground so much more effective.

2 - #10. Some kind of lineation, some zonation, some spots and beautiful dark finger nails. Stunning!

3 - #17 Even if the lower leaves lost some colour I like it very much. Maybe well grown pups will sort that out as the bottom leaves are also longer and narrower, maybe as a result of feeding it a bit much in it's seedling stage?

I know I said only 3, but #1 has also a very special kind of appeal! How did you make that one?

Keep up the good work!!!

Japie

    Bookmark   November 22, 2009 at 11:45AM
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hotdiggetydam

I use 3 rules in culling after the early seedling cull.(weak or spindley plants culled within the second month of sprouting)
1. Do I like the plant I created.
2. Do the pups look like the original seedling
(sometimes second and third generation are better).
3. Will it stand out against other plants already in the
market as 'different' and not a look alike.

    Bookmark   November 22, 2009 at 12:13PM
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LisaCLV(HI)

Culling is such a difficult and personal process. We start out by comparing all the members of one grex, and then move on to comparing the best of each with the best of other crosses, as you are doing here.

In the end, though, you really have to compare what you have done to what everyone else has done, and that is the hard part. What to do if you've made a really attractive plant, but it looks a lot like something that is already in the trade? I have no easy answer for that. Sometimes it will depend on how available the other plant is. If I've made a lookalike to some hybrid that I can't get here, then I'm more likely to want to propagate my own than wait until the other one becomes available.

We also all have our own agenda as breeders. When I look at your plants, Yong, I evaluate them based on what my own goals are. There are several there that I might keep for further breeding if they fit into one of the categories that I'm working on, but someone else might not see the same potential. For that sort of thing, I'd want to see what they do when they bloom before making a decision. If there is cup color there, it increases the value in my eyes.

Just based on what I'm seeing now, and looking at them as a finished product rather than as potential parents, I'd have to say that #6 is my favorite. That orangey glow and dark edge is a real eye-catcher, and it's different than most of the others I've seen. #7 is definitely a beauty. It has good form and probably the best zonation of the lot. The only problem is that it's so close to Groves' HL x Foster's Pink Tips cross that many people might not notice a difference. I like #10 a lot too.

    Bookmark   November 22, 2009 at 12:47PM
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splinter1804

Hi Yong,

Nice plants. Now you come to the culling, the hard part.

They all have nice filled in shape but if I had to pick just three of the ones with bars, they would be are #6, #7 and #9 and the ones with the spots would be #3, #15 and #20.

A job, well done Yong.

All the best, Nev.

    Bookmark   November 22, 2009 at 1:46PM
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vriesea

WELL Yong,you never stop surprising us do you ? very very nice selection ,culling is not easy as at all times beauty is in the eye of the beholder , for me my choice to keep is 1st # 6 than 2nd # 7 and 3rd # 10 there are others i would keep to breed further from . as Lisa said #6 does it for me ,that is very distinct ,you have to see whats out there. I had this problem with Vr,'Montezuma's Gem' its very similar to Vr ' Patrice ' (true form ) and Vr.'Dark Knight ' and Vr.'Pahoe Beauty' x hieroghlyphica, But the true forms are not available in oz (except the Pahoe x ) and so after asking a number of growers whom i considered to be knowledgeble in this ,and all stated that the plant was still different enough it was then registered ,and since the plant grew,flowered ,pupped etc ? yes it was waranted.other than that its much for me as what Lisa has stated ,i may see potential where someone else does not (what i call having 'breeders eyes' ) its a tough choice mate ,but you do excellent work ,good show , cheers Jack

    Bookmark   November 22, 2009 at 2:23PM
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lyndi_whye

I find #6, #7, #9 and #10 very unique.
#6 appeals to me most for it's coloration and spaced out stripes.

    Bookmark   November 22, 2009 at 7:19PM
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hanwc(Malaysia)

Hi Yong, you got a fantastic job there! From my personal view, those in picture #3, #6, #7 instantly catch my eyes and allow me to make a difference.

    Bookmark   November 22, 2009 at 7:30PM
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bromadams(10b)

Availability is certainly an issue. I have to wonder how many of the 10000 registered cultivars are really available anywhere and how many are available in SE Asia?

If you do register your plants, will you be able to export them to OZ, NZ and USA?

    Bookmark   November 22, 2009 at 10:47PM
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kerry_t_australia(9)

They are all beautiful - congratulations Yong!

My three faves are the very popular #6,#7 and #10 also.

Thanks for the preview!

K :)

    Bookmark   November 22, 2009 at 10:56PM
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paul_t23(Coastal Sydney)

Hi Yong, they are lovely plants, every single one of them, but along with everyone else it looks like, I have had my attention grabbed instantly by number 6. What a terrific plant. Then for me it is 7, then number 10 - that subdued variegation in the background of 10 makes a great effect with the broad leaves, big dark fingernails and zonation. Hmmm, the more I look at 10, the more I put it up with number 6. Just brilliant. Cheers, Paul

    Bookmark   November 23, 2009 at 2:50AM
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udo69

Hi All,

Thank for all comments. You almost have the same eyes. #6,#7,#9 and #10 are my selection.

Thank HDD for interesting basic 3 rules. It still be a difficult task to handle. It takes time and needs experince eyes. I have to learn and practices a lot.

Japie #1 is HL x Purple Haze. It's about 2 feet across and has compact from. This plant is placed outside and recieve full sun all day. It's colour is faded out by hot sunray. I also like the red color foliages of #17 but the lower leaves lost some colour. This might be improve in the next generation I think.

A good point Lisa, compare what you have done to what everyone else has done. Yes, we have our own agenda. I will keep the potential plants for further hybrideization and register only the best. Thank for you suggestion. I used to think like you that #7 has smilar looking as Groves' HL x Foster's Pink Tips but when I compare this 2 plants. They are different. Groves' HL x Foster's Pink Tips has lustrous skin and more space zonation but #7 has leathery skin and more compact form. Unfortunately, my Groves' HL x Foster's Pink Tips is too small to compare because it's a pup from flowering mother plant.

Bromadams. As you mentioned the 10000 registered cultivars are rarely available anywhere even in SE Asia. Normally, Thai people import plants from USA an OZ. Sending plants out of Thailand is not so difficult but export plants to some strict country are very difficult. I can not export at this time but I expect to do in a near future.

Cheers
Yong

    Bookmark   November 23, 2009 at 3:13AM
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sunshine_qld

I love them all but #6 is a stunner.

    Bookmark   November 23, 2009 at 5:08AM
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LisaCLV(HI)

Yong, can you show us the plant that you have as "cruenta broadleaf rubra"? I've seen that name before and always wondered if it is the same as johannis Fairchild, or if it's a true cruenta.

    Bookmark   November 23, 2009 at 2:26PM
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avane_gw

Yong, can you also please show me what your Neo Purple Haze looks like. Thanks

Japie

    Bookmark   November 23, 2009 at 3:40PM
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jaga

Wow, they all look fantastic, favourite is no 6 at this stage. thanks for sharing

    Bookmark   November 24, 2009 at 12:02AM
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devo_2006

Hi Yong,

I'm a bit late to the party! These are all great hybrids, I tend to agree with the fav's...#6, #7, & #10. I also like the colour & form of #17 & #18...these could be very good to use for crossing back to HL, or NB to achieve zonation, while retaining the deep colour & wide leaved form.

Cheers, Andrew.

    Bookmark   November 24, 2009 at 12:10AM
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fdnpedro(NSW north coast)

Hi Yong

Nice stuff! Those banded Brazilians sure work wonders in their hybrids, sometimes going to spots only. If you have space, keep them all and see how they pup, though it's mainly the variegates that can be unstable in my experience. Hannibal Lector has produced some neat crosses and the later generations of carch Tiger/ampullacea (select) crosses like Tunisia, Norman Bates and more recent ones will be great to work with too. I tend to go for the giants myself.

I like them all but would be looking for names for 1, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, though it would depend on what I was after and what else is around that looks like them, as others have commented. Cross some of them back to ampullaceas like Rafa or Jao Marcio which are already in the genes, if you want small, or Tiger or Norman Bates types if you want big. It's all good 'fun'!

It would be interesting to see their colour in parts of Australia where the nights are cooler (sth of the tropics). Some might light up with colour that you don't see with warm nights.

Well done!

Cheers, Pedro

    Bookmark   November 24, 2009 at 2:06AM
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udo69

Hi All,

Thank for participations.

Lisa, Cruenta broadleaf rubra I got from Bromegic more than 10 years. It look like Fairchild but smaller about 1/3 and have dark purplish red leaves. I always think that it's not true cruenta. It' possible be a johannis hybrid or something else. I have to use the old name until I get the real name. I will take the photos when I come back from my nursery on weekend.

Japie, N.Purple Haze is a very very old hybrid I got from Michael since first time I ordered plants from him. It has dark redish brown and upright foliages. It's a very tough plants that can tolerate very hot sunray. It still be happy in 100% sun all day. I will show you later.

Pedro, I just see you Macho hybrid in Ebay. They are stunning. I will keep your advice and go further for hybridization. My plants will be light up with good colour as in your cooler night part. ;-)

Cheers
Yong

    Bookmark   November 24, 2009 at 6:05AM
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sunshine_qld

Pedro he could send some to us to check the colours for him. LOL

    Bookmark   November 24, 2009 at 7:23AM
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LisaCLV(HI)

This post and your previous HL group have been very educational, Yong! They provide the kind of information I look for when I evaluate a parent plant in various combinations. Hannibal has proven to have interesting parentage potential, but he is unpredictable. Sometimes he completely dominates the cross (effectively devouring the other parent), and other times he merely lurks in the background, unseen. In Lorena Lector it's as if his DNA had been masked and straightjacketed!

Another thing: by grouping these all together as HL hybrids, you do set up a certain criteria for evaluation that might not be there if we didn't know their common parent. Naturally we are going to be looking for dark bands rather than plain colors or spots.

Some of those spotted ones have potential too. #1 has a very interesting look, but it's hard to say how much of that is coming from the wet leaves! As a breeder, I have been trying to produce bright pink spots, so I would probably grab #3 and #14 for my own breeding program. I would also hang onto any of the zonates that had one parent with cup color, just to see what they do when they bloom. If #16 has a brightly colored center, it will move to near the top of my list. Also, like Andrew, I would back-cross #17 or #18 to HL, or better yet, to NB or Tiger.

I still think your original picks were right on target, though. It seems most of us are drawn to the same ones.

Another thing we've learned here is that Buckingham seems to be a good one to combine with zonates. My theory about that is that anything with one of the Grandes in its background may have a bit of an advantage. The parentage of Grande (and Fantastic Gardens, Tak G, etc) has always been kind of vague because of all of the taxonomic reshuffles, but my gut says concentrica and pascoaliana. Pascoaliana is allied with the carcharodon group and somewhat leaning towards zonation itself, so it may be calling on its genetic memory there. Just a hunch.

    Bookmark   November 24, 2009 at 1:51PM
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avane_gw

Sometimes I see things but cannot quite understand what I see. Like always, you have the ability to put into words what escapes my reason, Lisa, thanks! And thanks again for showing these pictures, Yong! I was guilty of just looking at the zonated traits of HL.

And Lisa, I like that word play in the first paragraph of your last post!

Japie

    Bookmark   November 24, 2009 at 3:53PM
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fdnpedro(NSW north coast)

Hi Lisa,
Your theory could well be quite correct. Pascoaliana is like the carcharodon from Bahia but really differs little from the many forms way south from around Rio, many of which have the Tiger-like zonations (giant ampullaceas!) The dna trait for the markings could well be hidden/masked in some hybrids but can be reinvigorated in another cross. Very interesting thoughts on this group. I'm sure many of us will keep this in mind!

Thanks, Pedro

    Bookmark   November 24, 2009 at 4:20PM
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udo69

Hi Lisa,

Thank for your comment. You alway light up our inspiration. I'm in a stage of learning and know nothing about hybridization. When i did HL crosses, i thought that i wanted to create the nice zonation hybrids but i didn't know how to select plants to cross with HL. I did my own expriment by select lots of plants to cross. Just thought that did many crosses would get many plants to select. It would be an angel surrounded by garbages. Now i know what to do after join this forum. You fairly give me and our friends a lot of very useful information.

My next mission is to create compact red plants with dark red band and broad leaf. As you and Nev mentioned i would keep #17 and #18 and cross back to zonate plants as Tiger, NB and pascoaliana(sound interesting). Another mission is an intense spotted broad leaf plant with dark spines and red tips. I will keep #1, #14, #18 and #20 for further crosses.

I also think that Buckingham and Tossed Salad are good as parents to produce good zonate plants when cross back with banded plants. I will use this 2 plant to cross with pascoaliana, Tiger and NB and look forwar to the result.

Thank for sharing

Cheers
Yong

    Bookmark   November 24, 2009 at 10:58PM
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vriesea

I would certainly do more work with the 'Buckingham' as it does appear to be happy about letting the zonation through on the other hand ,look at the 2 from '.Royal Cordovan' you can't miss the one parent there , and due to this i would cross those with plants like 6 and 7 and 10 to see if they would then over rule the 'Cordovan' traits in hiding the zonations but yet capture the shape and colour of 'Cordovan' Have done that type of thing with some Vrieseas ( why are they so slow ) and yes what is missed first time can be unlocked the second time .it is allways a surprise to see what dominates and what does not and thats where record keeping,and sharing info like this is so very important and rewarding ,it gives us so much to compare and then draw conclusions from , as for the spotted plants ,i feel that if backcrossed with H.L or say 6 and 7 you would get zonations ,its in there and the spots are probably no less than the zonations 'broken'up by the genes of the other parent and so theoretically should recombine to make zonations on a quantity of them ,its worth doing it just to find out hmmm? best of luck Yong ,they are lovely
Jack

    Bookmark   November 24, 2009 at 11:12PM
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malleeaustralia

WOW - beautiful work

    Bookmark   November 25, 2009 at 12:08AM
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udo69

Hi Jack,

Buckingham and Tossed Salad are the same grex and are also good to cross with zonate plants. Like lisa mentioned, Grande in the background might have the adventage easy to accept other combination. I don't known about others as Chardonney in the same grex. May have the same result.

I just have an idea. If i cross HL x Royal Cordovan back to HL or #6 and #7, the result should be red plants with dark band. I just think of zonate Royal Cordovan. That will be very beautiful.

Here are 2 HL x Tossed Salad.
The first is Tiger's Heart just register.

The secondary is another HL x Tossed Salad preparing for registation as Amazing Thailand.

Cheers
Yong

    Bookmark   November 25, 2009 at 6:34AM
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vriesea

Just beautyfull Yong ,if this keeps up i will have to start Neo's hmmm? and yes i was thinking of a zonated 'Royal Cordovan' that 'Tigers Heart 'is stunning. great work my friend. you must be happy with them .Keep up the great work ok ?
bye , Jack

    Bookmark   November 25, 2009 at 7:52AM
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udo69

Hi Lisa and Japie,

I come back from my nursery and have pics of both plants you want to see.

N.cruenta broadleaf rubra, I got from Bromegic more than 10 years ago. I'm think of hybrid not true species because it looks different from all cruenta I've seen in trade. It's about 2 feet across and has broader and dark red foliages. Maybe cruenta hybrid.

Purple Haze I got from Michael since i started collecting broms. nearly 20 years ago. I think it's a very old hybrid made in USA. In FCBS, there are 2 Purple Haze. My PH looks similar to PH created by Owen Ferris. It has redish brown and more erect leaves. It's very strong and can take very hot sunray of thailand. That's a good character to choose this plant for my hybridization program.

sideview of PH.

Cheers
Yong

    Bookmark   November 29, 2009 at 12:49PM
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avane_gw

Thanks very much Yong. That Purple Haze is a very nice plant, much better than the one shown on FCBS. It looks like something that would do very nice here in our climate as well. Pity it's not on Michael's list anymore!

And I'm glad Lisa asked for a picture of Broadleaf Rubra. I do have one with that name, but it is very different looking. I think yours is by far the better looking one. Maybe it is just the growing conditions. Can yours also take full sun like the cruenta BR?

Japie

    Bookmark   November 29, 2009 at 2:08PM
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LisaCLV(HI)

Thanks for the picture, Yong. I agree that it looks more like a hybrid than either a true N. cruenta or N. johannis (which used to go under the name of "cruenta rubra"). Boy do I hate names like that! So confusing.

Your Purple Haze is not purple either, LOL! It does look like the Ferris-named clone, but did you read Uncle Derek's article about that? Very interesting. Apparently this is the same plant that created Dexter's Pride, Fosperior and Morris Henry Hobbs. Everyone, including Foster, apparently thought it was N. fosteriana, but it doesn't match the botanical description, so it has since been given this cv. name.

Here is a link that might be useful: Uncle Derek Says: Neo. Purple Haze/ fosteriana

    Bookmark   November 29, 2009 at 6:34PM
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udo69

Hello Lisa,

I've read Uncle Derek about Purple Haze and fosteriana. I have fosteriana from Michael. It's about 2/3 of PH i have and more purple color than PH. I do not know much about PH. Just think that PH is a very tough plant. Here is fosteriana.

Thank Lisa for a very good information.

Cheers
Yong

    Bookmark   November 30, 2009 at 9:27AM
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hotdiggetydam

The best way to make sure you have Fosteriana..ck the inflorescence it will be compound and as yet I haven't seen it pass that trait to hybrids.

    Bookmark   November 30, 2009 at 9:42AM
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LisaCLV(HI)

Thanks, Yong. I've never seen N. fosteriana, and have always wondered what it looks like. It appears to have a bit of a pattern to the foliage, kind of semi-marmoration. I wasn't expecting that. I wonder if Michael's plant is really the true species or just another hybrid? That's one I'd like to check on if I ever get back to Selby.

    Bookmark   November 30, 2009 at 12:17PM
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