Normal tree-form blue Lawson's?

wisconsitomSeptember 9, 2012

In another thread, botann shows us a Cryptomeria and in the second picture, there is apparently a blue-phase Lawson's cypress, possibly Oregon Blue. Are there any versions of this plant or similar having what I would call "normal" density? That is, not a tightly exaggerated conical shape with tiny growth increments? Any such plant exist?

+oM

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Embothrium(USDA 8 Sunset 5 WA)

'Oregon Blue' is one such you should be able to find on the market at this time comparatively easily. Otherwise the typical species is usually pretty blue, just not normally as saturated looking as one like 'Oregon Blue'.

    Bookmark   September 9, 2012 at 11:42PM
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Sara Malone Zone 9b

+om I posted this on the other thread, not sure if you think that this is 'normal' or not.
Sara

Here is a link that might be useful: Chamaecyparis lawsoniana 'Oregon Blue Weeping'

    Bookmark   September 9, 2012 at 11:58PM
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Sara Malone Zone 9b

bboy informs me my nomenclature wrong; it is simply 'Oregon Blue'.

    Bookmark   September 10, 2012 at 12:00AM
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ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5

That is, not a tightly exaggerated conical shape with tiny growth increments

++++>>> for your zone.. probably not ...

of the 20 or 30 lawsons i tried.. the only one that survived .. was Chamaecyparis lawsoniana 'Alumii'

its upright.. not droopy or weeping ... and it is not really tiny growth ... see link

being that it has survived.. you might work it into z5 .. but i doubt the z4 ... but for micro climates ...

ken

ps: i dont think i have ever posted on this one.. so edwin can let me know.. if the name is wrong.. i see no correction on my dB ....

Here is a link that might be useful: link

    Bookmark   September 10, 2012 at 7:27AM
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coniferjoy(z7 The Netherlands)

Ken, Chamaecyparis lawsoniana 'Alumii' is right.
It's a very old cultivar, found in 1891...

    Bookmark   September 10, 2012 at 3:30PM
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whaas_5a(5A SE WI)

Janice, I just toured the specimens gallery. Great selection of photos.

That Parrotia persica �Persian Lace� is primo.

And great job to who ever did the pruning on 'Taylor's Sunburst' and �Ogon-janome�.

Your 'Blue Shag' looks like a 'Mini Twists'.

OH, and your Viburnum trilobum �J.N. Select� is a Wisconsin plant!

    Bookmark   September 10, 2012 at 3:30PM
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wisconsitom

Thanks all, and you would be forgiven for chuckling at this query, coming, as it does, as the latest in a long line of similar I've posted down through the years.

Did some more research this morning and had a better response worked up at my work computer, which promptly locked up. So anyway.....it is my understanding that these are not at all trees for poor drainage areas. It just so happens that up at my property, all the best microclimate places happen to be in the soggy part of the woods. So may have to work at it a bit to find a spot. But I really do need to get a few of these things next year and try. I'd love to have some nice blue-foliaged trees that in other respects resemble the moss-green native Thuja occidentalis that makes up much of my woods. That would be grand.

Saw several references to "Pembury Blue" being "the best" blue Lawson's. I think much of what I read was England-based and as such, perhaps not a good guideline to be following. Any opinions either way?

+oM

    Bookmark   September 10, 2012 at 6:23PM
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Sara Malone Zone 9b

whaas I will pass along your nice comments to Jan! She will be very pleased. How nice to know that I have a Wisconsin plant in my garden! That Viburnum gets berries in early summer - brilliant light red, shiny to boot. I did the pruning on the Taylor's Sunburst - was afraid I hacked it too much so good to hear that. Ogon-janome was a group effort. I love that Parrotia, too. I will double check Blue Shag as I have a 'Mini Twists' as well and may have mixed them up! When they are small they look pretty similar as the twisting doesn't assert itself much in the early years.
Sara

    Bookmark   September 10, 2012 at 9:10PM
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whaas_5a(5A SE WI)

Oops, sorry assumed you were Jan based on the photo copyrights.

Johnsons Nursery is in my backyard and one of the few nurseries in WI to come out with several stellar intros. The best include Firespire Musclewood, Big Blue Swiss Stone Pine and Firebird Crabapple. Your Redwing Viburnum isn't too bad either!

http://www.johnsonsnursery.com/Plant_Introductions.aspx

    Bookmark   September 10, 2012 at 9:53PM
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Embothrium(USDA 8 Sunset 5 WA)

>It's a very old cultivar, found in 1891Jacobson, North American Landscape Trees (1996, Ten Speed, Berkeley) says

"Origin unknown. Introduced The Hillier Manual of Trees & Shrubs (2002, Hillier Nurseries) ends the description of 'Alumii' with "C 1891":

"Where no date of introduction is known, the earliest known date of cultivation is included: eg C 1658"

    Bookmark   September 10, 2012 at 10:48PM
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Sara Malone Zone 9b

No problem! She and I are old, old friends and blog partners. She photographs, I write and we have a lot of fun. Now I understand the 'JN' reference. Those Carpinus look fabulous. Jan and I are going 'on the road' in a week to the PNW...maybe the next trip should be Wisconsin!
Sara

    Bookmark   September 10, 2012 at 10:59PM
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coniferjoy(z7 The Netherlands)

We will never find out which year of introducing is right.
But because this cultivar was found in England and not in the U.S. I think the Hillier info will be more correct that it was found in 1891...

Also the U.S. info is not right in were it is originated from.
I can tell you that it was found as a mutation of the Chamaecyparis lawsoniana 'Erecta Glauca'.

    Bookmark   September 11, 2012 at 1:45AM
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Embothrium(USDA 8 Sunset 5 WA)

The Hillier is not saying it was found in 1891, it is saying it was known to be grown by then. This is the Hillier definition of what the "C" they use before dates stands for:

"Where no date of introduction is known, the earliest known date of cultivation is included: eg C 1658"

As for Jacobson not having the right information because he is an American writer, he is a higher calibre, more careful researcher than many - including various European sources - who can provide more accurate plant historical data in hundreds of instances. The above comment about the 'Alumii' not being listed in the 1875 catalog is doubtless based on him looking at the 1875 catalog himself. In preparing North American Landscape Trees (a 5 year process) he spent countless hours wading through old dusty nursery catalogs looking for original descriptions and first dates of listings.

    Bookmark   September 11, 2012 at 11:06AM
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coniferjoy(z7 The Netherlands)

It's a pitty that Mr. Jacoben isn't a member of this forum,
he remembers me to myself ;0)
I hope his longs are still ok, dusty catalogs ain't good for them...

Are you sure Jacobsen must be written this way and not with a k :0)

    Bookmark   September 11, 2012 at 11:56AM
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wisconsitom

......so, for an answer to my question, Jacobsen is the guy I've got to ask?

;^)

+oM

    Bookmark   September 11, 2012 at 6:26PM
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Embothrium(USDA 8 Sunset 5 WA)

Until Ken posted that he tried a bunch of kinds and they all died except 'Alumii' I would still say the matter was settled for you with 'Oregon Blue'.

Unless you didn't want something such a deep, slatey blue. It can look like one of those selections where the desire for blueness was taken to the point that an odd, sort of metallic effect resulted.

'Alumii', of course does not have the habit you want.

What about one of the blue clones of Korean arborvitae, would that be hardy there? Some very silvery stock has been on the market here.

You do have to keep deer away from this plesantly aromatic species, they will eat it to nubs and keep it there.

    Bookmark   September 11, 2012 at 8:12PM
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wisconsitom

I was just bemused by the degree of off-topicness! No biggy, I've done that myself.

Site after site, many of which are admittedly merchant's sites, list Z5 for most of these cultivars. That's within tempting range for a person such as myself that lives in Z5 and has property in what is probably still Z4. I do not in any case consider this a good bet.

I agree, the 'Oregon Blue' does indeed satisfy my growth form and other requirements. Then I gets to reading about others, like the Pembury, which also has the same form (In pictures on certain vendor's websites). That's where that side question sprang from. I'm not so much beating a dead horse as threatening the life of one that's still alive with my incessant flogging.

As mentioned, my woods' primary species is Thuja occidentalis, a well-known deer icecream cone. Yet mine are never touched by the deer. This includes little saplings and seedlings. They simply don't mess with it there. I've long speculated that this is down to two factors-the abundance of this species in that area, and the existence of other yummy farm crops. Yet in other places that are not even far away, Thuja o. gets hammered mercilessly. So I don't know....I suppose the new plant in the woods might prove irresistable. Even on that score though, the smattering of Green Giants I've planted there are also unaffected by herbivory. It's odd but delightful.

+oM

    Bookmark   September 11, 2012 at 11:57PM
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pasadena(z6-7WA)

We have a small grove of mature individuals in our yard; they are old enough to have seen temperatures down to -20F on several occasions. However, none of them are nearly as nice as would be an Oregon Blue. However as for a tree growing in the woods...

Following is a photo I avoided photoshopping as much as possible--you can compare the color to the Calocedrus decurrens in front. The early morning sun gives them a redder cast than they have.

    Bookmark   September 12, 2012 at 5:58PM
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wisconsitom

Thanks Pasa. I've managed to become confused though; Are those behind the Calocedrus Oregon Blues or straight Lawson's?

+oM

    Bookmark   September 12, 2012 at 11:34PM
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pasadena(z6-7WA)

Sorry to be confusing--straight Lawson's--it was said that the species can be quite blue so I thought I'd post the photo becasue I had it on my computer--yes, the Oregon Blue is much bluer

    Bookmark   September 13, 2012 at 10:45AM
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botann(z8 SEof Seattle)

Here's a better picture of my blue Lawson, that's been identified as 'Oregon Blue'. I started it from a cutting from a tree I spotted in Seattle years ago. The owner didn't know the name of it.

Here's another Lawson Cypress called, 'Golden Showers'.

A lot grow tighter like +om said. Here's a gold one in my garden.
Mike

    Bookmark   September 13, 2012 at 11:59AM
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Embothrium(USDA 8 Sunset 5 WA)

If the source tree had no name then what you know is your propagule is thought to look like an 'Oregon Blue'. Without additional confirmation, like finding out the mother plant was bought as 'Oregon Blue' I wouldn't be certain it was the same variety. There are a lot of different kinds on properties here, including spontaneous (or intenionally raised) seedlings that were never named cultivars themselves.

    Bookmark   September 13, 2012 at 12:32PM
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wisconsitom

Whatever the case, that first one Mike put up there is certainly what I'm talking about.

I think I'll just get a handful of small ones -Oregon Blues-and place them into sheltered but sunny spots. What's the worst that can happen? Hehe....in this case, the worst that can happen is probably identical to the best that can happen-non survival!

+oM

    Bookmark   September 13, 2012 at 6:54PM
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Sara Malone Zone 9b

Just don't come complaining to us that you have the blues!

    Bookmark   September 13, 2012 at 9:09PM
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wisconsitom

Why I oughta......

+oM

    Bookmark   September 13, 2012 at 9:40PM
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Embothrium(USDA 8 Sunset 5 WA)

Bonk!

    Bookmark   September 14, 2012 at 1:37PM
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wisconsitom

OK..so please bear with me, or not, as the case may be: Today I found a nursery-in Oregon-that seems completely unaware of the "Oregon Blue" cultivar. They offer "Pembury Blue" and both theirs and other pics I've seen of this cultivar also look like what I'm after. Now here's the pitch: They rate Pembury as Zone 4 hardy! Does anyone here even remotely believe this?

The nursery is Bizon's. I did email them to ask about that hardiness rating. They replied that they list it as Zone 4! Duh! So pretty much no information was forthcoming.

So I ask again....what, if anything can any one of you tell me about Chamaecyparis lawsoniana "Pembury Blue"? Believe me, if these things really are that cold-hardy, I'd have the use for more than a few!

+oM

    Bookmark   September 14, 2012 at 6:02PM
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manastash

Long time lurker, first time poster.

This is my favorite species. Out here in Central/Eastern WA, we have many 50 to 75+ year old specimens. Zone 4 would be pushing it, but I believe solid Zone 5-6. Many of these old specimens have been through -20F (not lately but back in the day).

Bigger problem in Phytophthora root rot disease.

I have a couple nice species, as well as emerald pillar, chilworth silver, lycopoides, elwoodii and oregon blue. All on their own roots (not the new Monrovia series).

Keep in mind, like Bboy says, a lot of what's around in the PNW (and blue in color) are just old clones, nobody knows what they are, but they are very attractive. I think "Oregon Blue" is fairly recent cultivar, say last 10-15 years?

    Bookmark   September 15, 2012 at 3:35AM
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wisconsitom

Thanks manastash. Are the plants offerred by Monrovia grafted then? And if yes, do you happen to know onto what?

I did a bunch more looking at pictures last night on these interwebz. It seems to me that Pembury Blue is in fact more towards what I consider excessively dense, but that in its youth, this is less apparent. What caught my eyes was that hardiness claim on the Bizon site. They don't seem to want to talk about it though!

As things sit right now, I'll probably order a few token plants, most likely little guys and most likely 'Oregon Blues' from Forestfarm. This whole thing is a sidelight to a sidelight, in terms of what I'm doing up at my property. For an example, next spring will see the installment of 5400 seedlings of known reliable conifer seedlings consisting of red pine, white pine, and Norway spruce. This is reforestation. The Chamaes are just a little frosting. But frosting about which I've spent considerable time thinking!

+oM

    Bookmark   September 15, 2012 at 10:59AM
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Embothrium(USDA 8 Sunset 5 WA)

Density etc. varies with the site. Some areas all the cypress family conifers look sheared.

"Some areas" includes much of Britain. The same Leyland cypress clone can look like an Italian cypress (close and columnar) or a Monterey cypress (open and broad) depending on where, geographically, it is planted.

Jacobson (1996) says 'Oregon Blue' was in mass production by 1978-9.

    Bookmark   September 15, 2012 at 10:39PM
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wisconsitom

Yeah BB, I get that. It's just that within this group-blueish Lawson's-there is quite a range of growth habit, growth rate, etc. My quest is towards the more tree-like as opposed to the more "garden conifer"-like. And within that parameter, there are real differences.

I see much the same variation between the native Thuja occidentalis which inhabit my woods and a cultivar of the same species like, say, "Emerald". The former, especially in youth, has clearly discernible tiered branching, not unlike a spruce or fir, whereas the latter is pretty much from the get-go an impenetrably dense mass. Even the straight species ends up being very dense. I'm just not looking for a version of Lawson's where that characteristic is further amplified, be it by slow and tiny growth increments, or other. In fact, given that should I actually plant some of these things, they will be a tiny part of a larger project which is aimed towards reforestation, not amenity landscaping, faster growth is favored.

+oM

    Bookmark   September 15, 2012 at 11:08PM
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manastash

Tom - ForestFarm or a couple others have what you need. However, I am not so bullish on Lawsons east of the Rockies, let alone Zone 4/5. Maybe some others can chime in.

I applaud the effort though - I had a coast redwood going here for a few years (its a nice looking perennial now). Done with zone pushing - too much work.

If you want chams, perhaps mix in a few nootkas and pisiferas and such?

The grass always seems greener. I've got a cham. thyoides for some reason and I'm basically in the desert. Not very sensible.

    Bookmark   September 16, 2012 at 2:44AM
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wisconsitom

Yeah, it's a novelty for me. As I said, a sidelight to the main show, which is to be thousands of reliably hardy new full-size conifers, to blend in and expand my existing woods. Surely I might fail with the Chams.

+oM

    Bookmark   September 16, 2012 at 10:41PM
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botann(z8 SEof Seattle)

While looking at some old pictures, I came across this one I took a few years ago on a foggy morning of my blue Lawson.
I wish I could add some information for you +om, but all I can offer is a picture or two. The tree on the right is a Cryptomeria j., 'Sekkan'.
Mike

    Bookmark   September 19, 2012 at 12:33PM
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wisconsitom

Thanks Mike. The picture is very inspiring and is exactly what I'm after. True, I may have to move to the PNW to succeed!

+oM

    Bookmark   September 19, 2012 at 6:01PM
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