seems like just yesterday ...p ayacahuite forest sky

ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5November 15, 2011

just last week ... posted some old pix

minor windstorm .. and this is what i now have

please .. diagnose the issue ... has it solved its own problem.. or would a systemic help ...

looks like it may have been suffering for a while.. since it seems to already have already ready to go

ken

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pineresin

Maybe old white pine weevil damage?

Shame, as it'll never be a good shape now.

Resin

    Bookmark   November 15, 2011 at 8:48PM
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tsugajunkie z5 SE WI

The stump below the break has resin dripping from a couple of spots. Since that part looks like it needs to go too, I'd dissect it to see what's in there.

tj

    Bookmark   November 15, 2011 at 10:17PM
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ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5

are weevils inherent in the whole plant now ... forever??? ... or was this a one time infestation.. that has basically run its course??? ... could the damage have been historically.. and the tree just finally weakened????

i have bayer systemic... would it help ...

ken

    Bookmark   November 16, 2011 at 8:06AM
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gardener365(5b Illinois USA)

of course my condolences. that tree isn't pumping right now so you should wait until spring growth occurs.

i'd be tempted to prune it now while the getting is good. find the branch with the most side-shoots and cut back all the others to one shoot heading away/parallel to the ground.

you may want to keep two leaders for insurance. i think that's the best you can do. and remove the lower portion of the destroyed leader. i'd get rid of it now.

Dax

    Bookmark   November 16, 2011 at 8:17AM
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dcsteg(5 Shawnee, KS.)

I agree with Resin.

I had a similar incident with a Pinus strobus.

Unfortunately, there are no insecticides on the market that are available to home gardeners. A licensed pesticide applicator can spray your tree for you. Since your tree is large, it is probably a good idea to hire someone with the training and equipment to spray it safely and thoroughly.

Dave

Here is a link that might be useful: link

    Bookmark   November 16, 2011 at 8:33AM
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pineresin

The damage is old (2 or 3 years ago), but leaves a semi-permanent weak point. If it had lasted another year or two it would probably have put down enough new wood to make it strong again, but it didn't quite manage it.

Does mean though that the weevils are long gone; spraying won't do much good now.

Resin

    Bookmark   November 16, 2011 at 10:46AM
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pineresin

Actually, looking again, I wonder if it might be white pine blister rust, rather than weevils. The infection could have come in on those now-dead side shoots, and spread from there into the trunk at the snap point.

Resin

    Bookmark   November 16, 2011 at 10:49AM
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whaas_5a(5A SE WI)

That tree has really come along and looks quite nice. Too bad for that leader.

What do you guys think about cutting the infected part off and tieing back the most vigorous side shoot against that leader to help form a central growing shoot?

    Bookmark   November 16, 2011 at 11:14AM
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ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5

i will go back out later.. but i am guessing 2 to 3 foot growth per year.. and that hunk laying on the ground .. IS 3 YEARS GROWTH .... including the part left on the plant above the whorl ....

so resin is probably spot on.. on the 2 to 3 years back ...

now.. he adds a diagnosis.. and doesnt answer the usual question ... lol .. i really think he likes messing with me.. lol ...

i got the part where the bugs are gone.. but if it was the rust .... is that periodic.. or going to be a long term problem.. i will bet a systemic insecticide wont help .... lol

off to google and be swallowed up with 22 million websites... any chance with a short answer???

anyone grafting pines this winter???? maybe i will call gee's .. and just start over .... hmmmm .

ken

    Bookmark   November 16, 2011 at 12:15PM
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pineresin

Agree with Dax & Whaas, saw off that bare top section, and train the strongest side branch upwards.

Resin

    Bookmark   November 16, 2011 at 4:59PM
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dcsteg(5 Shawnee, KS.)

Sorry but I don't agree. Looking at the size of the strongest leader and getting it pulled back to emulate main leader status would be a stretch. It would never fill in properly due to size of existing side branches. They would keep growing at the same pace the new existing replacement leader.

Pinching back side branch new candle growth for a few years could be a consideration to being it into balance.

For me it would be chain saw and shovel time.

Ken will figure it out.

Sorry about your loss. Truly a great specimen conifer. In this business you never know what's lurking around the corner that will take these beautiful conifers out.

Dave

    Bookmark   November 16, 2011 at 5:25PM
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whaas_5a(5A SE WI)

Dave, you don't play games!

I'd pull this one in since its already ahead of the other side shoots. You may have to free stake it too to keep it from point to far to the left. Pull out the step ladder in spring and prune back the other candles. Back in business, boom!

At the end of the day we know the king of "be done with it" will cut it down, lol.

    Bookmark   November 16, 2011 at 5:53PM
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greenman28 NorCal 7b/8a

That's what I'd suggest, too.
Give this tree a chance...too nice to waste.

Josh

    Bookmark   November 16, 2011 at 6:17PM
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dcsteg(5 Shawnee, KS.)

Won't work.

That branch took a set 4 years ago. Would make a great bow if that's the look you want.

Not a mover.

That conifer is not rebuildable.

Dave

    Bookmark   November 16, 2011 at 6:35PM
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whaas_5a(5A SE WI)

Never say never, the wood is pretty flexible. The red is the branch bowing over then the green is a stake to the backside that you can tie back over as a leader.

Just throwing it out there! I did the same thing with my Pinus parviflora 'Glauca', of course it wasn't as large. Just a 5 footer.

    Bookmark   November 16, 2011 at 8:14PM
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tsugajunkie z5 SE WI

Ken, is it in the back forty or up front where it will eat at you? I tend to agree with Dave in that the selected branch is too old, but it may be worth a shot- although I'd have one caveat. If what caused the decapitated whorl to break is still there, the whorl with the chosen leader may be next.

tj

    Bookmark   November 16, 2011 at 10:00PM
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botann(z8 SEof Seattle)

Just remember Ken, you're not growing the tree for lumber. It doesn't have to be straight. Let it go and see what happens rather than take the attitude, it's not perfect, therefore it goes.
Train a new leader and go from there.

Mike

    Bookmark   November 16, 2011 at 11:57PM
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dcsteg(5 Shawnee, KS.)

Well we all have our opinions on how to fix problematic conifers. Good discussion material.

Ken is probably sitting back enjoying the show knowing full well what he intends to do.

Sooner or later he will reappear and let us know.

By the way Ken I would have a good look at the rest of your pines just to be on top of any other problems in the developing stages. Leaking sap spells trouble and needs to be addressed.

Dave

    Bookmark   November 17, 2011 at 7:02AM
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gardener365(5b Illinois USA)

agree w/Mike. I've learned that no-staking (took many years of convincing) a leader will either proceed to straighten on its' own or a new one will arise. It usually takes 4-5 years, possibly longer.

And (ken) you have common sense about growth of branches/shoots. Anything that is too large, thin/cut them back while removing other shoots on/individual a branch(es) as to maintain balance. It's just a large bonsai pruning project in a sense.

I've said my peace/piece, I'm finished now.

Dax

    Bookmark   November 17, 2011 at 7:12AM
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ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5

first.. re: dave .. what you see in my pix.. is probably twice the size of daves yard ... i FULLY understand his shovel pruning logic .... this plant would drive him insane.. and as to his garden.. that is most likely a very short drive.. lol ... so i applaud his suggestion ....

but as noted.. this is out 3 acres from my house.. and i can not see it from the porch .... so it can be ignored with impunity .... as it will be.. i am still firmly in the WEIRDER THE BETTER CLUB .... and watching this experiment in shape and form will be a nice 5 year program .... a perfect xmas tree shape is not imperative ....

i will not be tying it.. or forcing it ...

if money comes along.. i may have it grafted.. or buy a new babe .... but who knows if that will happen.. its aggressive growth rate is making it a near bonna .... not worth the footprint .... with such plants.. decisions on removal.. need to be made.. while i can still do it for free ....

all that leaves.. is whether there anything i need to do to keep or make it healthy.. the bug is long gone.. but if its the rust.. is removal needed.. to protect other pines???? .. i doubt i will ever get a specific direct answer.. nor take any action.. lol ..

ken

    Bookmark   November 17, 2011 at 12:47PM
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dcsteg(5 Shawnee, KS.)

Ken,

You need to follow your own advice that you often give to others. Get your county extension agent evolved. Won't cost you a dime. I am sure he will be qualified to give you a specific direct answer to you concerns.

Dave

    Bookmark   November 17, 2011 at 1:04PM
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ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5

i was wondering if anyone would suggest such ..

all i can say to that is ... DO AS I SAY ... NOT AS I DO ....

rotflmbo ....

ken

    Bookmark   November 17, 2011 at 1:42PM
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dcsteg(5 Shawnee, KS.)

Ken you can roll on the floor laughing your a.s.s off all you want to. I am OK with that.

If I remember right you had some concerns "please diagnose the issue" enough that you posted them here.

To sluff off some creditable advice by saying "DO AS I SAY ... NOT AS I DO"... what is that?

Are you to be taken seriously?

Just kidding of course...

rotflmbo...also

Dave

    Bookmark   November 17, 2011 at 2:24PM
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ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5

ok.. well you were chiding me .. i was on the phone ..

in MI.. the extension office no longer has peeps to visit those pesky homeowners ... had i been a farm or a herdsman.. with thousands of acres/livestock .. well they have someone in the next county over who is available ...

but they were nice enough to refer me to the Ag/soil conservation district ... and there is some young guy there .. and i was able to charm him enough.. to come over next monday or so ... though he did admit that he never heard of an ayacahuite in MI ... lol ...

he doubts the rust suggestion here in MI .... and he agrees the bugs are probably long gone.

i told him to schedule it to spend some time shooting the stuff ... since he will be getting paid to look at the collection ...

i will have to come up with a few thousand unrelated questions in the mean time ...

sooo .. now i can say.. DO AS I DO... AND AS I SAY ... lol

ken

    Bookmark   November 17, 2011 at 2:51PM
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dcsteg(5 Shawnee, KS.)

I am proud of you Ken.

You have restored all my confidence in you as being the GO TO GUY.

Keep us informed and don't let him know you know more then he does.

Later,

Dave

    Bookmark   November 17, 2011 at 3:05PM
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gardener365(5b Illinois USA)

Ha Ha - never ceases to amaze me (ken that is).

Good job Dave. You kept the pressure on when needed.

Dax

    Bookmark   November 17, 2011 at 8:13PM
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botann(z8 SEof Seattle)

This is getting more interesting.
Obviously there is a bug involved.
Will it return and does it just like that Pinus, 'Ayacahuite?
I think that variety of bug will return and will like other Pines also. Ayacahuite ain't all that common and wouldn't be able to sustain a breedable population of moth or borer in your area....or mine, for that matter. (Think Bigfoot) Maybe a similiar needle bundle count would be just as attractive. Count those needles Ken, and be on the lookout on Pines with the same bundle count.
Here we have a problem with Pine Shoot Moth and some kind of borer on our Japanese Black Pines.
Perhaps this whizz kid can solve the mystery for you.
Mike....all ears and ramblins.

    Bookmark   November 17, 2011 at 9:49PM
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whaas_5a(5A SE WI)

I can't wait either! I'm thinking some type of borer.

    Bookmark   November 17, 2011 at 10:16PM
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bernd ny zone5

I have a much larger white pine which got infected and woodpeckers got at that tree. The top broke off, an arborist cut the remaining stub off, probably 8 inches diameter then at the cut. The lower branches became bushy and finally now after about 8 years two leaders have developed. Because my pine is much bigger than Ken's, the wood not flexible, my pine will never look good, but I leave it as is because it shades my house, for now until it becomes too dangerous.
Bernd

    Bookmark   November 18, 2011 at 7:16PM
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