Pinus maximartinezii

scpalmnut(8A)November 23, 2012

Yes, I am well aware that this pine will not be hardy planted outside without protection in my climate but I intend to do so. My question for the few that have had experience with this pine is at what temperatures does minor damage start to occur and at what temperatures is significant damage likely to happen?

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Embothrium(USDA 8 Sunset 5 WA)

Erect a greenhouse around it and you may get by.

    Bookmark   November 23, 2012 at 10:43PM
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floramakros(Earth CA 9)

"Yes, I am well aware that this pine will not be hardy planted outside without protection in my climate but I intend to do so."

Hmmm...like torturing your plants, huh? Your next project should be growing ferns and orchids outdoors in Death Valley...there are plenty of things I'd love to grow outdoors here, I particularly miss all the giant Norfolk Island Pines I used to have in San Francisco, but they'd be toast here during the summer (in most other places they'll die when winter comes because this tropical pine cannot take frost.) I love the species so I grow them as indoor plants and I'm still close enough so I can always visit the S.F. ones when I want to see gargantuan NI pines in all their multi-tiered glory, the city is the perfect environment for them but not outdoors here. Learn to adjust your tastes, or save up and move to that dream location, otherwise you're just frustrating yourself and killing trees. I never knew I'd fall in love with Canary Island pines until I met the mature grove at my current place that thrives in our dry hot summers and is quite beautiful as well. Make the most out of what is feasible, it'll save you lots of heartbreak in the long run.

    Bookmark   November 24, 2012 at 5:40AM
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salicaceae(z8b FL)

Actually this species is hardier than is usually cited, but it is the humidity and diseases that are hard on it (killed mine). There is nothing wrong with trying with rare plants, because with most of them, we don't know what their true limits are.

    Bookmark   November 24, 2012 at 11:32PM
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floramakros(Earth CA 9)

As long as you have plenty of captive guinea pigs to experiment with, kill as many trees as you want (although it's a waste of rare DNA it's not illegal). If however you're not likely to see another one anytime soon I'd treat mine with more care, but to each his own. My guess is his poor plant is destined for early death either way, better sooner than later I suppose...

    Bookmark   November 25, 2012 at 6:23AM
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salicaceae(z8b FL)

So you never experiment with plants? Most gardeners who are also rare plant collectors do. We propagate rare plants and have several backups up the same clone and then trial them out. If you have a rare plant and it struggles, but survives, is that any different? How about the thousands upon thousands of street trees in your fantastic San Francisco (and Oakland, and Berkeley etc.) that are hacked back beyond recognition in order to preserve "views"?(I have never seen such utter disregard for arboricultural practices that approaches the atrocities seen in California cities). How is that abuse any different from pampering and babying a species that may still die due to the climate?

    Bookmark   November 25, 2012 at 5:19PM
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floramakros(Earth CA 9)

OMG, if you seriously want to discuss the merits of Florida's treatment of plant and animal life vs. CA or any other state, you are starting your fight with two black eyes and a broken nose, your state is infamous...we get a troll saying he wants to plant a very rare Mexican species with no protection, two of us gently scold him, you however go on a tangent about professional breeding and clones. I was vice-president of the Bay Area Carnivorous Plant Society. I was experimenting with tissue culture when you were still in your diapers. This has nothing to do with scientific research, this is about a guy who is asking at what temps should he expect damage to a rare species that we all are smart enough to know belongs in better hands. Some members of your club can be trusted to care for an extra Nepenthes lowii you give them as a gift, others can't be trusted to take care of it for 10 minutes. As sentient beings we should be able to distinguish the two.

    Bookmark   November 25, 2012 at 8:59PM
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salicaceae(z8b FL)

When did I ever mention Florida? Wait, I didn't. That said, my point still stands about the archaic approach to urban tree care in California. My club? Please. I won't even get into a pissing match about credentials. I was off-put by your condescending and rather rude approach to a person asking about a species that is worth trialing more?? We all know the hardiness limits of this species? So how many have you grown and where? Who are you to say that Scott can't take care of a plant? Wow, I am shocked that being VP of a regional plant society gives one license to be that pompous.

    Bookmark   November 25, 2012 at 9:20PM
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floramakros(Earth CA 9)

I mentioned florida in response to your off topic diatribe about tree-torturing in California, clean your own house before you start criticising others, seems you're particularly jealous of Northern California for some reason. Your fish&game department alone is worthy of a full federal investigation, it's total chaos down there...I know I have wild adult conifer species growing just minutes from me that you'd give your right, uh, arm to have in your collection as mere seedlings/cuttings/grafts but that's no reason to be so angry. The truth does seem pompous to the ignorant. Open your mind and be more receptive.

    Bookmark   November 25, 2012 at 10:15PM
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floramakros(Earth CA 9)

I just got an email from a bromeliad enthusiast buddy from SoCal whom I mentioned this exciting conversation to. He works exclusively with Mexican species. Unbeknownst to me previously he also has experience with this pine. I'll pass on his advice to all the potential growers out there. He says in his experience and discussions with others the maxipinon will not survive outdoors in conditions of frost in winter (it will weakly hang on for two or three cold winters and then die) without protection. He wouldn't risk it himself with protection in such a climate, even with larger trees, he says it may survive with protection but you'll always have an anemic tree that will never fully recover before the next winter rolls in. It will not be robust but will be a sad specimen. The other sure killer he says is high humidity in summer. He's never heard of one lasting more than a year or two in hot humid conditions. This is not a species that should be planted outdoors in Florida for example or sadly the entire East Coast, either the winter or summer will kill it. He did tell me the prospects for it outdoors are quite good where I live, and he's sending me a couple this Spring! Thanks to this thread I'm getting a species I didn't even know I wanted, lol! Life is one great adventure...hope this info helps.

    Bookmark   November 26, 2012 at 10:45AM
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whaas_5a(5A SE WI)

Bonk

This post was edited by whaas on Mon, Nov 26, 12 at 21:07

    Bookmark   November 26, 2012 at 12:54PM
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floramakros(Earth CA 9)

My immediate guess (and that's all it is, as I said I was only passing on information) is that dry conditions diminish the frost problem. It can take cold in Arizona and New Mexico for example much better than a cold wet winter followed by a wet hot summer, that one two punch most likely will be fatal which is why East Coast growers haven't had success. As many CA and FL gardeners know, Citrus can survive lower temps better with no moisture involved, when moisture is a factor, even at higher temps the trees suffer frost damage. Moisture seems to be the key ingredient to its demise whether you add cold or heat. Luckily humidity and frost aren't factors here where I plan to grow them.

    Bookmark   November 26, 2012 at 2:26PM
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pineresin

"The isolated native range in which this plant is found in Mexico reaches an average minimal low of 10 degrees F"

Probably a typo: should read "The isolated native range in which this plant is found in Mexico reaches an average minimal low of 10 degrees C"

Resin

    Bookmark   November 26, 2012 at 6:01PM
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floramakros(Earth CA 9)

If it's true that explains everything, resin you're a genius! If it never freezes there of course it reacts badly to frozen winters...can we have some reliable meteorological data on Zacatecas, Mexico to settle all this? Whaas have you heard back from your friends yet?

    Bookmark   November 26, 2012 at 7:01PM
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floramakros(Earth CA 9)

Might as well have a pic of what we're all discussing:

    Bookmark   November 26, 2012 at 7:20PM
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whaas_5a(5A SE WI)

It probably depends on the elevation which I can't figure out.

A city within its native range has an average min. low of 5 degrees Celsius.

Here is a link that might be useful: Click hybrid for the map type

    Bookmark   November 26, 2012 at 8:36PM
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salicaceae(z8b FL)

Clearly they see lower than 10 C. I seem to remember Jeff Bisbee indicating that there are frosts there on occasion. Pinus oocarpa I have from the same region are tolerating winters here with no problem. This large ex situ conservation planting in Pietermaritzburg has seen light frosts and probably down to -5 C. From Pinus maximartinezii in Pietermaritzberg

Flora - what are these conifers in CA I would give my right arm to grow? I have seen most of the significant plantings there (UCSC, UCB, UCSFBG, Western Hills, HBG, Quarryhill and Crombie Arb.), there are plenty of rarities there (but maybe I've missed some!) - but I wouldn't give up my arm for any of them. I am very happy with my 5 acres of forest/garden here. To me, to have 100 year old longleaf pines and America's only native cycad growing on my property is far better than what I could afford in CA. But, you are right, it is a very nice climate for a lot of plants and I do enjoy visiting that area.

    Bookmark   November 26, 2012 at 9:19PM
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Embothrium(USDA 8 Sunset 5 WA)

>He says in his experience and discussions with others the maxipinon will not survive outdoors in conditions of frost in winter (it will weakly hang on for two or three cold winters and then die) without protectionHence my previous comment. Habitat photo(s) I've seen show it on low hills just above the level, where there is probably not nearly enough altitude for significant cold tolerance to be necessary. If I understand correctly the foliage also remains at least partly juvenile in character into adulthood.

    Bookmark   November 27, 2012 at 2:56AM
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pineresin

It appears to suffer damage below about -5 or -6�C. much will depend on how prolonged the cold is though; brief cold nights would do less damage than a several-day spell below freezing even if its coldest is less cold than the single-night freeze.

"Here is a link that might be useful: Click hybrid for the map type"

That map isn't too accurate! The red oval below is more accurate (though not perfect). There's also that new population discovered about 200km or so northwest (but at lower altitude, so not colder).

Resin

    Bookmark   November 27, 2012 at 7:00AM
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beng(z6 western MD)

floramakros, careful. salicaceae is no lightweight....

    Bookmark   November 27, 2012 at 10:47AM
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beng(z6 western MD)

floramakros, let me elaborate. Should I be admonished for trying Longleaf pine in z6 western MD? The result is a 20 & 15 footer on my lawn.

An extreme example was a Norfolk Island pine planted outside in a city park in the autumn some yrs ago. I laughed out loud -- that obviously won't live. Next early summer, after a winter w/deep snowcover, I happened on it, and it had survived! Even put out a new sprout from halfway down -- the top had burned, of course. Dead after the next winter, but it still showed unexpected hardiness & at least provided some interesting data.

    Bookmark   November 27, 2012 at 11:16AM
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floramakros(Earth CA 9)

Yes, if you start a thread here declaring it, saying you know it's wrong and no matter what we say you'll do it anyway lol...you'd sound like a child. My guess is you made no such declaration here before your experiment, or if you did discuss it your language was more neutral and less antagonistic, am I right? Your warning is old news, sals and I made up long ago, in fact for Xmas he's sending me some rare Araucaria grafts as a gesture of lasting friendship (it would work, just so you know...;-)

    Bookmark   November 27, 2012 at 11:59AM
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floramakros(Earth CA 9)

ps Regarding the longleaf pine, you're talking about Pinus palustris right? It occurs naturally in south-eastern Virginia, growing it anywhere in Maryland doesn't seem like much of a stretch. This thread however concerns a very rare species that most people reading this will never own that is native to a warm very low humidity area of Mexico. The proposal is to plant it outdoors without any protection in South Carolina with yearly humidity levels off the chart. Every expert so far has testified it will last about as long as that Norfolk Island pine did that you described (luckily a million times more common so no great loss there unless you feel planting a tree knowing it has a 99.99% chance of dying within 2 years is a sin in and of itself). With all your expertise, would you advise palmnut to do it or should he listen to everyone's past results and rethink it? What exactly are all of us advising him against it missing?

    Bookmark   November 27, 2012 at 8:29PM
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davidrt28 (zone 7)

From Flora's early post:

(although it's a waste of rare DNA it's not illegal).

This is an "it depends". If the selling nursery is offering grafts, which is sometimes the case even with a non-cultivar rarity, it isn't true at all. Especially in the case of something so frankly modest looking! It's not like demand from the US SE is going to hugely drive of the price of them and prevent rare plant enthusiasts in Berkeley from buying them. Seriously: 99% of people purchase and plant what is known to grow in an area, even if it's kinda rare.

And even if something is a seedling, you'd have to presume that the plant would never get wasted in some other way. Climate is merely one thing that can kill a plant: if it were planted in Santa Barbara but was cut down in 10 years by the next owner of a property, it would still be dead.

    Bookmark   November 28, 2012 at 7:25AM
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Mcpotts

I keep ours in a very cool greenhouse in winter. It wouldn't suprise me if the temps dropped to upper 30s-low 40s. It hasn't damaged my pine. I love the color.

    Bookmark   November 28, 2012 at 8:01AM
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davidrt28 (zone 7)

"Regarding the longleaf pine, you're talking about Pinus palustris right? It occurs naturally in south-eastern Virginia, growing it anywhere in Maryland doesn't seem like much of a stretch."

Well, actually, you'd be surprised by how much colder the highest elevations of Maryland can be. A solid zn 6, below 0F every winter and sometimes lower than -10F, and 70+" of snow a year average, including, remarkably, a bit of lake effect snow. Not conditions where P. palustris is going to last for more than a few years, probably. We don't have the awesome range of climate variation seen in CA, but we still have some variation over reasonably short distances.

Even the ones in SE PA don't look terribly happy with the lack of very long, hot humid summers. (our summers are merely long hot and humid haha) It's telling that there isn't one at Longwood: they seem to exclude or remove anything that might look bedraggled. I have seen the one at the University of Delaware.

    Bookmark   November 28, 2012 at 8:58AM
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floramakros(Earth CA 9)

"I keep ours in a very cool greenhouse in winter. It wouldn't suprise me if the temps dropped to upper 30s-low 40s. It hasn't damaged my pine. I love the color."

Your cool greenhouse temps are the natural winter temps where I live. That's perfectly within their winter tolerance, it shouldn't damage it at all. You're smart to keep it in that environment. Do you keep it outdoors all spring, summer and fall? What are the temps and humidity levels where you live, every bit of cultivation info on this rare gem is helpful. Good luck with it!

    Bookmark   November 28, 2012 at 2:24PM
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floramakros(Earth CA 9)

"Even the ones in SE PA don't look terribly happy with the lack of very long, hot humid summers."

Are you saying beng's two longleaf pines are pretty much doomed to decline and very short lives (I've heard wild ones in good environments can live 500+ years) what a shame.

    Bookmark   November 28, 2012 at 2:37PM
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floramakros(Earth CA 9)

"This is an "it depends"."

As long as the species remains extremely rare in cultivation any deaths, including of clones, are by definition the loss of rare DNA.

"if it were planted in Santa Barbara but was cut down in 10 years by the next owner of a property, it would still be dead."

So we should stop giving our infants vaccinations because there's a chance they'll be hit and killed by a school bus at the age of 10 anyway...that's seems like pretty twisted logic...

    Bookmark   November 28, 2012 at 2:52PM
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davidrt28 (zone 7)

Well, I like to argue...welcome to the thunderdome! Haha.

DNA is either unique or it isn't. In the case of clones, it isn't. Unique DNA being sufficiently preserved is all we care about. Conservation is the job of arboreta and conservation bodies, not home gardeners. Remember, the whole reason it took a long time (fast compared to the Chinese though!) for Wollemi to come into trade is that every botanical garden around the world that could possibly grow it had to get first priority with the cloned plants. The fact possibly hundreds of Joe Schmoe gardeners in the South and Midwest who were duped by National Geographic into buying one, only to have it die, is only a tragedy for their bank accounts, not for the preservation of the Wollemia. (Of course the irony is the Nat. Geo. sales spiel went something like "help preserve a rare plant" but that was only because some piddling proceeds allegedly went to saving the grove in NSW...not that that your garden would ever contain the last specimen on Earth!) So, your argument about clones is totally specious, unless various horticultural entities and the Mexican state are not doing enough to preserve it. I don't know if they are or not, but that's not SCpalmnut's problem. (And of course the Wollemi is technically even "rarer" than this pine, because it's down to a single clone) You can criticize him for being a fool to waste time on something that will die, but don't act like he's the next Monsanto wrecking global environmental destruction for a desire to have a rare plant in his garden.

As for seedlings...a similar logic applies. If cones are incredibly rare to come by, the Mexican authorities should only distribute them to botanical gardens. SCpalmnut implies - I suppose - he was going to buy it from a nursery somewhere. Not that he was going to travel to Mexico to smuggle them back to his garden. In fact if he buys seed from a cultivated tree in an arboretum, a case could be made that it _might_ be genetically "contaminated" by hybridization or inbreeding and is best _removed_ from the collection. You see how you completely ignored many subtleties in the rush to seem righteous? There were so many unknowns that should have stopped you from launching your attack. Don't worry, you're not alone in having this problem.

As to the long term survival in any given garden, I admit you cleverly tried to twist my logic. Congratulations, you could find employment as a political pundit. Now I will untwist your hatchet job and prove you wrong. My point about Santa Barbara was just that anyone taking a serious conservation approach, even in a "wrong climate" is almost certainly doing a better job than someone taking a less serious approach somewhere else. This was more in defense of Salicaceae than scpalmnut, because he doesn't sound like someone taking a serious approach to conservation, he sounds like a misguided dreamer. Climate is only one part of whether a rare plant gets preserved. Salicaceae grafts things he knows won't make it in his humid Florida garden -- and he wouldn't bother even with that if he knew something would not grow at all. In any case that's taking a serious lifelong approach. Some bobo in LA could read "oh this poor rare pine", plant one that would grow alright, and in 3 years be more interested in fiber optic macrame, forget to water it and have it die. If it was seed grown, yes, that DNA is gone forever. Meanwhile, Salicaceae grafted it into another pine that doesn't mind conditions in Florida. (this is hypothetically assume it's hardy enough for his location, maybe it isn't) Hence, the Florida collector has saved the DNA that was wasted by someone in the "appropriate" climate. Again, the point is climate is only one aspect of whether rare DNA is being "wasted" or not.

The biggest issue, of course, is the Occam's razor obviousness of "hardly anybody actually does this anyhow." You make some ridiculous assumption that this is actually a problem the natural world is having to deal with. Other than the stupid Wollemi, there's no epidemic of people inappropriate climates "wasting" DNA of truly vulnerable rare plants. (and as I pointed out, that's not even wasting with Wollemia because it's thousands of copies of the same genome) If that's your criteria, botanical gardens are just as guilty of it. Kew has "wasted" the DNA of their Jubaea chilensis in the temperate house. (all horticultural palms are unique AFAIK: a handful of dates are tissue cultured) They could have removed it a few years ago when it was doomed to hit the ceiling (during a renovation) but they didn't. They could have moved it to a Cornish garden; instead soon it will have to be killed. Waste. Some people do smuggle rare cycads; but of course nobody is going to spend $1000, risk jail time, etc. for something they know they probably can't grow.
(an amusing aspect of the UB Berkeley garden are the beds that are behind barbed wire fence and security cameras, that are growing very rare cycads that were confiscated from a smuggler)

A far fetched possibility about Wollemi that I entertained ages ago on these boards was whether spreading it all over the world actually gave more chances for pathogens to evolve to destroy it. This actually happened with the potato. Once a blight evolved in one place, movement of people and their potatoes spread it around the globe. Because the clones had been through a genetic bottleneck. They had to go back to the original native range of the potato to find the genetic diversity to overcome it. With Wollemia, there is no diversity. BUT Australia is very careful, supposedly, about allowing plant pathogens in. Going so far as to force people to clean their shoes after deboarding airplanes. (IIRC I read that...could be wrong) So, it's an unlikely supposition but they are wisely keeping the location of the grove a secret. In the big picture this is more of a plant pathogens management issue than a plant genetics issue, but it's still a more clear and present danger than the mere isolated fool planting something that will quickly die. It's actually happened for one thing, while there's not even an anecdote of your scenario. So it's a valid point you actually could have made - if you'd been me HAHAHAHAHA.

    Bookmark   November 28, 2012 at 3:51PM
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davidrt28 (zone 7)

As a concrete example, take the situation of Monkey Puzzle on the east coast. I know upscale nurseries have sold those since I was a little kid, yet they are scarce as hen's teeth in gardens, public or private. Clearly scores of them have died...mostly in summer because they hate our heat & humidity. They were probably grown from cultivated tree seed in the PNW, that would otherwise have just ended up in a compost heap in the PNW. Yet, through these years of failures, it would seem (I suspect, but cannot prove) that a few strains have been identified that can survive Eastern conditions. Of course there are huge practical problems like the fact they are geographically disparate...moving pollen from one to another would be quite an ordeal and will probably never happen. But had pioneers not tried to grow them, this clone of "humid surviving monkey puzzle" would never have been selected. Is it is a net positive for the species? Perhaps in a very small way. People who live in the East Coast and don't travel will have a chance to see a really weird looking tree they otherwise would not get to see. Maybe they will become more interested in conservation because of it, and donate money to a Chilean land trust or whatnot. No more hypothetical than your doomsday "DNA is lost" scenario. Notable, none of Eastern trees are growing in what I'd call "primarily horticultural" collections. A zoo is a zoo, the Barnes is an art museum with some rare trees outside. It's hardly large enough to merit being an arboretum. There are trees in private gardens in Maryland. So if we were only relying on official botanical collections like the National Arboretum, there would be no hope of growing these on the East Coast at this point. They would have been completely written off. Foolish experimentation produced a beneficial outcome.

That's a semi-unusual plant...not threatened but doesn't have a huge geographic range either. The same would apply to certain far rarer plants. If Cathayas in China are surrounded by hundreds of miles of rice patties, their seeds don't have any way to escape except by man made migration anyhow. Once again, unless there were a collector's market for them, their DNA would just get "wasted" being pulled up by Chinese farmers as another weed. The collector's market - properly managed with legally enforceable rules preventing excess harvesting - is, even inclusive of a handful of fools who plant things that aren't going to survive for them, clearly a net positive, not a net negative.

    Bookmark   November 28, 2012 at 4:27PM
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davidrt28 (zone 7)

I should have said something like "clade" instead of clone. I was talking about a group of monkey puzzles that survive in the east, not a single clone. 2 trees in MD, the Barnes in Philly, and now the new one in Norfolk. There was supposedly a large tree at a sort of stately home in Wilmington, Delaware, that was cut down by a moronic landscaper for "not looking English enough!" Which has become my personal favorite anecdote for summing up how stupid many people in the so-called field of "landscape architecture" are.

    Bookmark   November 28, 2012 at 4:30PM
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pineresin

"There was supposedly a large [Monkey-puzzle] at a sort of stately home in Wilmington, Delaware, that was cut down by a moronic landscaper for "not looking English enough!""

Particularly as there's one (or more) in almost every English stately home garden!

Resin

    Bookmark   November 28, 2012 at 4:39PM
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davidrt28 (zone 7)

"Regarding the longleaf pine, you're talking about Pinus palustris right? It occurs naturally in south-eastern Virginia, growing it anywhere in Maryland doesn't seem like much of a stretch."

Are you saying beng's two longleaf pines are pretty much doomed to decline and very short lives (I've heard wild ones in good environments can live 500+ years) what a shame.

Once again, fallacies and hectoring rhetoric. Beng's location is one of many in western Maryland. You dismissed all of Maryland as being hardly different than SE Virginia. My point was simply some parts of it (but not necessarily's Beng's) are very different. Spanish Moss has its northern limit in isolated parts of coastal SE VA. It's quite mild and distinct from the rest of the climate of VA, MD, DC, & DE.

    Bookmark   November 28, 2012 at 4:42PM
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floramakros(Earth CA 9)

Your book starts with the assumption that I said "unique" DNA, that would only be in the case of seedlings, I said "rare", there's a big difference...talk about using a politician's argument...since you started your soliloquy with a false premise there's no need for me to dispute the rest of it...

    Bookmark   November 28, 2012 at 4:43PM
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davidrt28 (zone 7)

Thank you, by once again trying to attack, you've actually set yourself back. It was _me_ who made the distinction between rare and unique, because that is the difference between a clone and a seedling that you had NOT made clear. And in fact had used to further obfuscate. I pointed out that your doomsday scenarios involving either clones OR seedlings were both paper tigers.
There...that's the cliff's note version for people who understandably don't want to wade through this thread again.
To conclude: I won.

    Bookmark   November 28, 2012 at 4:49PM
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floramakros(Earth CA 9)

Won what, total ridicule and contempt from anyone with a logical bone in their body? I didn't know this thread was a contest. You must live a very sad and boring life...let me guess, everyone on your school soccer team got a trophy whether they won or lost, right? I'm all for boosting self-esteem, but for your sake seek therapy from a professional not a forum on conifers...

    Bookmark   November 28, 2012 at 5:51PM
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ian_wa(Sequim)

Somewhere I have a picture of a Pinus palustris growing in Tacoma, Washington... guess I better try to dig that one up.

    Bookmark   November 28, 2012 at 7:13PM
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floramakros(Earth CA 9)

"HAHAHAHAHA"

Definitely seek therapy, here's hoping you're able to work out all your issues. Whether it's psychological or spiritual get help as soon as you can. Before you accuse me of "attacking" you again I'm being 100% serious, the tone of your screed shows very disturbing patterns, I wouldn't be surprised if you're blind to them.

On a happier note, here's a wiki commons photo of a Maxipinion specimen at the U.C. Berkeley Botanical Gardens, one of my favorite collections in the world. The Bay Area Carnivorous Plant Society held our meetings there once a year when I was VP. I donated plants to their carnivorous collection, and happily received some very rare ant plants in return.:

    Bookmark   November 28, 2012 at 8:09PM
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davidrt28 (zone 7)

It's believable Ian. I was surprised to find records of them growing in Northern Ireland and Scotland of all places! Very slowly, though, I bet. The ones in SE PA might look straggly because of snow loads.

As I've said before, far fewer temperate or subtropical plants need a warm summer as need a cool summer.

    Bookmark   November 28, 2012 at 8:10PM
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Embothrium(USDA 8 Sunset 5 WA)

I don't know, diversity tends to go up as the climate gets hotter.

    Bookmark   November 28, 2012 at 8:16PM
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floramakros(Earth CA 9)

"As I've said before, far fewer temperate or subtropical plants need a warm summer as need a cool summer."

What statistics or scientific evidence are you basing this statement on? It seems patently false on the face of it (great instincts bboy), but before I refute it I'd love to read your proof backing it up.

    Bookmark   November 28, 2012 at 8:24PM
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davidrt28 (zone 7)

Lastest fracas laid to rest here, if anyone didn't follow it.

    Bookmark   November 29, 2012 at 12:35AM
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pineresin

"It's believable Ian. I was surprised to find records of them growing in Northern Ireland and Scotland of all places! Very slowly, though, I bet"

If that's Pinus palustris you're referring to, no, there aren't. There's one or two really struggling specimens in the warmest parts of southeast England, but none in Scotland, and a group of three reported in Ireland (Republic, not Northern) proved to be misidentified.

Resin

    Bookmark   November 29, 2012 at 5:32AM
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beng(z6 western MD)

davidrt28, from my observations, direct cold doesn't seem to bother the Longleafs. No terminal bud death & only slight needle-burn from the worst winters so far (I also have a healthy pond pine that is labeled as only zone8 hardy).

However, wet snow or ice may eventually be their undoing (the extremely long needles). They survived w/no problem the record 36" single snowstorm here in Feb 2011, but that was relatively dry snow.

    Bookmark   November 29, 2012 at 10:57AM
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davidrt28 (zone 7)

Thanks beng. I feel like the couple I've seen north of the native range (SE VA) are not the tall, full specimens seen in the south. A relative of mine had one in his garden in Norfolk that was lovely...I'm not sure I'd say it of any I've seen north of there, which are spindly or squat. (Vienna, VA; Newark, DE as I already mentioned; south of Trenton NJ; etc. I can't remember whether I've seen the one at Longwood.) I'm not sure what the reason is but a combination of things seems logical.

Resin: thanks for sorting me out. I found what I thought were records for Pinus palustris at the RBGE multisite search.

    Bookmark   November 29, 2012 at 2:26PM
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kenptn(z6b TN)

davidrt28 Pinus palustrus is not commonly planted anywhere near as much as Pinus taeda here in TN. In Jan. of 1985 most of mid TN experienced historic low temps. Officially -17F-27C to-28F33C. Most of the P taeda foliage at least discolored and a lot just turned brown. There was no loss of bud or wood though, and new growth was normal. P palustrus was almost pristine. In fact, they were about the ONLY green that winter save Ilex opaca. In 1985 I won the lottery here with -28F33C but I had no P palustrus. I now have two, about 20 years old. They have both gone through -21F-29C with no damage. The species is native up into the high elevations of northern AL in the mountain form. I heard that unofficially northern AL just south of the TN line dropped to -30F-34C in '85.

    Bookmark   November 30, 2012 at 6:37AM
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Mcpotts

We have ours in a pot. Bought at Cistus several years ago and during the warm months we keep it outside. It just motors along. The color is beautiful. We also grow Pinus palustrus and they are now about 12'. Have lost one but the others seem to be doing well. Wonderful tree.

    Bookmark   November 30, 2012 at 7:43AM
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scpalmnut(8A)

Ask a simple question and forty plus responses later, none have answered the original question but at this point enough is enough. I guess I should have worded my original question differently by emphasizing that yes I was aware that his tree would not be winter hardy outside but that I did fully intend to provide it with the utmost in cold protection to possibly increase the odds that it would survive.
Now to respond to floramakros, no I do not get my jollies by deliberately killing innocent rare plants. While I do have quite a few connections that allow me access to some rare material, most of the stuff I buy and normally I only have one single plant, not an entire greenhouse of " captive guinea pigs " from which I can just go grab another to continue my evil experiments with. If a plant dies, it is gone from my collection and a financial loss is incurred so I lose twice.
Floramakros, if you aren't into experimenting or pushing boundaries, that's fine but don't vilify those of us that are. If I didn't push the envelope or listened to everyone that said , " Oh, that won't grow where you are" , then I probably wouldn't be successfully growing Araucaria angustifolia, Nageia nagi, Cathaya argyrophylla, and Pinus patula all outside and in the ground.
Being that I only have an acre to play with here, it is no big deal for me to wrap plants, string Christmas lights, or run propane heaters to get my most tender plants through the tough times, which may only be a few nights a year.
Lastly I would like to say, your lack of using common respect while posting has made your posts less than stellar. Who are you to be referring to me as a "troll" when you know nothing about me other than your preconceived notions that I am some serial plant killer? There are plenty of people who participate on this board that " know their stuff" whether it be self taught or through years of university study and then there are those that are just the casual gardener with real life experiences. You might be wise to err on the side of caution and address everyone with dignity regardless of whether you agree with them or not.

    Bookmark   November 30, 2012 at 8:23AM
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floramakros(Earth CA 9)

"Yes, I am well aware that this pine will not be hardy planted outside without protection in my climate but I intend to do so."

I interpreted this sentence as you stating you intended to plant it outside without protection, hence the misunderstanding. Hopefully if you reread your sentence you can understand why I did. Everyone else from their comments (whether pro or con) did the same. I only wish you had clarified it sooner. I'm glad to hear you plan on protecting this rare beauty during the winter, but again I should warn you your summer humidity will most likely spell its end. Of course it's totally your choice, good luck, maybe your tree will be the one in a million. Please remember to inform us what happens next year, it adds to our info on this rare species.

    Bookmark   November 30, 2012 at 12:50PM
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davidrt28 (zone 7)

" Mcpotts 7a (My Page) on
Fri, Nov 30, 12 at 7:43

We have ours in a pot. Bought at Cistus several years ago and during the warm months we keep it outside. It just motors along."

"I should warn you your summer humidity will most likely spell its end"

McPotts has said they are in Virginia. If he's growing in it Virginia in a pot, it obviously doesn't have an exquisite sensitivity to humidity. Believe me, I've lost plants that do, even if they were in pots. That being said, of course it's a risk in growing any high elevation species like this in a humid climate like ours. A handful of facilities actually have air conditioned greenhouses to mitigate this. I believe Longwood has one.

This post was edited by davidrt28 on Fri, Nov 30, 12 at 23:09

    Bookmark   November 30, 2012 at 11:08PM
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floramakros(Earth CA 9)

david this post of yours is really confusing. My quote is responding to scpalmnut's explanation of what he really meant to say in his first line starting this thread (he could have saved us hours of typing if he had told us that when he saw everyone's reaction on the first day!;-)

Mcpotts has nothing to do with it. Reread the two messages, they're directly above your last post. Now THAT is a perfectly valid reason to edit a message imho.

    Bookmark   November 30, 2012 at 11:33PM
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davidrt28 (zone 7)

"Mcpotts has nothing to do with it. Reread the two messages, they're directly above your last post."

Actually, you should reread. McPotts says he has a Pinus maximartinezii. You said humidity would kill one. That has everything "to do with it".

This post was edited by davidrt28 on Fri, Nov 30, 12 at 23:44

    Bookmark   November 30, 2012 at 11:42PM
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floramakros(Earth CA 9)

I didn't say it, a grower with over 20 years of experience with the species said it along with every other person growing it that he knows. UCB botanical garden has told me the same thing btw. Are you forgetting everything that's been written on this thread or are you just itching to constantly argue with me? Dave, anyone, can you intercede and tell him his behavior is ridiculous, I can't be the only one tired of his nonsense. I'm beginning to wonder if I should even bother posting on this forum anymore, I wasn't a fan of flame wars and trolls in my BBS days (I was a moderator on echos in FidoNet and RBBSNet) and I certainly haven't grown to like them now. Please someone else say something, sheesh...

    Bookmark   November 30, 2012 at 11:51PM
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davidrt28 (zone 7)

"I didn't say it, a grower with over 20 years of experience with the species said it along with every other person growing it that he knows. UCB botanical garden has told me the same thing btw. Are you forgetting everything that's been written on this thread or are you just itching to constantly argue with me? Dave, anyone, can you intercede and tell him his behavior is ridiculous"

If you say something here, you said it. That's the way a messageboard works. You didn't say you were quoting an expert. You take anybody challenging you as "ridiculous behavior". I suggest you think seriously about why you do that.

In any case, part of what this board is about is people challenging conventional wisdom. If someone at UCB Berkeley says it doesn't grow here, and McPotts does...fine. You can report what the UCB Berkeley person says, and I can report what McPotts says. (not that I should have to, since it's right here in the thread) That IS NOT a flame war! Someone else keeps trying to escalate it to that with ad hominem attacks.

    Bookmark   December 1, 2012 at 12:04AM
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davidrt28 (zone 7)

BTW, all I said is that it didn't have an "exquisite" sensitivity to humidity if it could grow in a pot in Virginia. (I could list 15 other plants that would die in a pot in Virginia.) I largely agreed with you by pointing out it's a risk to grow such things in a humid climate! Yes, Salicaceae said one or more had died for him. SCPalmnut is presumably between FL & VA, somewhere in South Carolina. His mileage may vary as the internet-ism goes. Parts of the sandhills supposedly have somewhat lower humidity than the rest of the Southeast. Maybe SCPalmNut is in one of these areas.
The concern here is how defensive you get when someone merely contributes another thought to a thread that doesn't exactly, precisely agree with your views.

    Bookmark   December 1, 2012 at 12:18AM
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