Let's start counting for 2013.
1 so far, 2 injuries, no deaths.
Here is a link that might be useful: California shooting
Thank goodness the staff members were able to talk him into giving up his gun, no one died.
No one yet. Stable condition for now. I'll hold out hope, though! I haven't posted before now, as I haven't the words. There are some really hurting people out there. I feel sorry for him and for his victims, but those that watched and those that were hurt. It's awful all the way around.
This kid felt bullied by the ones he shot. Maybe the recent chatter of NRA logic made him feel like he was a "good guy with a gun".
And am I correct that it was his older brother's legally owned weapon that was used?
Like I posted previously, our society is diseased. Until the problems of society are taken care of there will be violence, guns or not.
"Until the problems of society are taken care of there will be violence, guns or not."
I agree, fortunately in this instance the kid had a pump 12-gauge and what sounds like #8 shot rather than a Mini 14 with a 30 round clip. Not all guns is created equal.
Until the problems of society are taken care of there will be violence, guns or not.
I do not see it that way. Never in history is there a time we did not have any violence. Gun control is not about stopping violence and everyone in the US will be safe and there will never be another death we will all hold hands and sing Cumbia. That is fairy tale.
My thought is reduce the chance of the violence. It does not stop people from falling because you put a railing where there are steps. People still fall down steps where there are railings.
So let's tear down all the stair railings--right, marquest?
Unfortunately, that seems to be the main argument of some pro-gun people.
A diseased society can only be cleansed by extermination.
I agree marquest. And of course Lady Brat is correct, if you put a loaded firearm of any kind on a table and it is never disturbed in any way, it will likely never harm anyone.
The problem is that we live in a very angry, deeply impulsive, badly behaving society, too often with great public encouragement about the impulsive, bad behavior.
If a very angry person flashes out in violence and a gun is easily available, with poor impulse control the odds shoot way up for gun violence. Harming someone with a gun allows foe a physical and psychological distance to take place. With a knife, one must get close physically and then do the actual work of body penetration in order to cause harm and pain. One must also worry about the ability to accomplish the goal without being physically dominated and controlled, making the accomplishment of the goal more questionable.
If one angry person wants to harm a group of people, he won't be able tp harm them all or kill them all with a knife ( re, the incident in China) but a gun makes it much more likely.
A person can create a physical distance between himself and the intended target, and that is easier on the angry person in every way.
And it is really fast to pick up a gun, aim and pull the trigger, leaving a short period of time to fire again unhindered if he misses the target, without being harmed himself. That is the most important point imo. The fast and easy solution of a gun to an angry, impulsive person, with the least immediate threat to himself.
A gun brings incredible power to the person holding the weapon. No more talking, do it my way.
If we did not live in such an angry, ego driven, impulsive society then guns would not be a real issue. Guns allow for our angry society to act out in yet another destructive way, one which kills.
Guns provide an IMMEDIATE way to control others and to display anger and deal a payback from an angry, impulsive person.
All this is armchair mumbo gumbo but I do think it all applies to the many reasons why I believe this society is simply not able to deal with the overly easy availability of the truly extraordinary mass amount of firearms allowed to the individual.
I remain wondering what what the responsible gun owner is going to do to change the perception of the face of the average gun owner so that the confidence that they will find away to resolve this problem seems likely to the general problem. And when are they going to start?
Time passes quickly. Another terrible tragedy looms ahead, another swell of angry responses to the dead children or other innocents who die due to a sick/angry person who had the easy availability of a firearm to act out with - all directly ahead. And then, yet another.
It deeply disturbs me that all I see is very angry responses right back to the angry and frightened public, responding with the irresponsible and lazy, dangerous solution thus far being to just arm up everyone.
I need to see responsible gun owners to as passionately and individually actively work for an acceptable solution to reduce gun availability - at LEAST as much as they passionately and actively talk and gather to talk about the way they believe the amendment should be interpreted to let most average people own them.
If they did so, I really believe that this would shortly become a non issue.
Sadly, I don't believe they will.
I wonder why not?
>a loaded firearm of any kind on a table and it is never disturbed in any way, it will likely never harm anyoneIn other words, so what?
Nuclear energy is safe - as long as there is never an accident - too.
Really hard to shoot someone with a gun if there is no gun present.
"A diseased society can only be cleansed by extermination."
Before the bipolar/PTSD guy here totally freaks out and wonders if you believe he should perish in the gas chamber with a thousand others at some contemporary American Auschwitz to "cleanse" society, I would like to give you the benefit of the doubt and ask that you very carefully explain and clarify your statement.
Because taken at face value that is sick.
Not hard to have seen what was coming. The libs have worked hard to take god and responsibility out of our culture. We are seeing the results. But, trying to make guns the culprit will be their goal. as they have been teaching, blame some one/thing else.
I dunno, seems kinda sick or morbid to suggest keeping count?? how do ya do that, put notches in your TV remote?
This post was edited by fancifowl on Fri, Jan 11, 13 at 16:53
"Keith Ratliff was better known to the gun-loving side of YouTube as the curator to FPSRussia, aka Professional Russia, a channel of ammunition porn racking up 3.5 million subscribers and over 500 million views. Last week, in a gruesome and still mysterious twist of fate, Georgia police found him shot in the head and surrounded by guns - just not the one that left him dead. Ratliff curated, according to the New York Times, the ninth most popular YouTube channel, which displayed high-powered guns.....
"But last week, the authorities said, Mr. Ratliff, 32, ended up on the wrong end of a gun. The police in northeast Georgia found him dead at his office on Jan. 3, shot once in the head," reads the Times report from Robbie Brown. The Huffington Post gets a bit more hyperbolic, saying that Ratliff's "office" was actually a "weapons and development facility he operated in Carnesville, GA."
Both HuffPo and the Times confirm that Georgia police are treating this is as a homicide, and police, HuffPo reports, have had to battle the untrue rumors that Ratliff was found tied and dumped on a rural road. It may have been a surprise attack - police say Ratliff was shot once and there were no signs of a struggle." snip
IOW, being armed to the teeth didn't help.
Here is a link that might be useful: link
I was listening to the crazy whack job gun nuts on our local talk radio today. These guys are so scary. Makes me afraid for America.
Right. Instead, I'll beat the everlivin snot out of someone with a baseball bat. The gun won't shoot itself. Just as the knife won't thrust itself, and a bat won't swing itself. But a person who has it in his mind to hurt someone WILL find the means to that end.
On the other hand, if there is any validity to the Bible ("Cain killed Abel"), there will be violence as long as there are human beings.
I call neither for the extermination of the human race nor to give up and do nothing. We do what we can to "civilize" the human race, including passing some practical gun laws that will not exacerbate the problem and will hopefully make it just a bit better.
A bit better is better than worse, after all.
"The libs have worked hard to take god and responsibility out of our culture"
So, you believe that saying a couple of prayers a week would have stopped these mass shootings. Right?
Apparently you have to be religious to know that it is wrong to shoot people. Mandatory lessons about God would solve all of our problems.
Bill, I agree with all of that. Let's just remove the "Way too easy to inflict massive insane murdering" from of the equation.
That, I'll agree with.
But we no where NEAR STOP at the gun laws!! There is so much more that has to be done!
Frank it has nothing to do with saying a couple of prayers. It has to do with beloieving that it's wrong to take human life, that it has more value to it than anything material, and that it should be preserved if at all possible.
Now I wait for YQ to ask me then why do I carry a gun, and the answer is that gun on my belt isn't there to TAKE a life. It's there to SAVE one or more.
Bill, removing god from the schools has not changed one thing. Kids don't suddenly believe that killing is OK. Not saying "Merry Christmas" does not make people more or less violent.
He made an inane argument, and I responded in kind.
The point, Bill, is that it does not take religion to know that. One does not need religion to know it's wrong to kill someone. I mean, duh! Believing or not believing in a god has nothing to do with this.
Bill, are you saying that if all guns are outlawed (something I hope doesn't happen) then we will see all impulsive, explosively angry people arm up with bats, go to the schools and commit bat slaughter upon dozen? And children who come across bats will accidently beat themselves or their playmate to death?
Of course not so, imo only, your argument falls apart quickly. What do you consider is a good and reasonable solution to dramatically lower the number of guns laying around and steps to be taken to prevent easy excess to those unknowns who get them and wreck havoc on innocent people who are, after all, the ones who are dying for out right to keep our firearms?
The general public does not wish to be stuck with carrying a loaded weapn at all times. There must be first steps towards a reasonable, workable ssolutionthe people can live with? That starts with ideas to see how he best favorable response. What is in's or some of yours....or anyone s, but I'm especially interested in Bill' s and Jodi' s if she is willing to participate in this discussion.
I hope snarkiness and insults from anyone will be stopped. If we are to have firearms then in this new time we must find a way to prevent the most horrible of accidents and murders from taking place as much as possible.
That requires a new attitude, approach and change.
Please let's discuss workable ideas like reasonable people.
Bill, are you saying that if all guns are outlawed (something I hope doesn't happen) then we will see all impulsive, explosively angry people arm up with bats, go to the schools and commit bat slaughter
No, I believe that if guns were to be banned outright, they wouldn't bother with schools. They'd head straight to DC and start with Congress. I absolutely do believe there'd be another Civil War.
They came very close to it on a smaller scale back a few years ago in NOLA after Katrina, and I don't think it'd even be a question IF it would happen.
They came very close to it on a smaller scale back a few years ago in NOLA after Katrina
....may I have an explanation or decoding of what that means please? "they" (?) came close to it (?) Who is "they" and "what" did they come close to ?
By the way mentioning any state south of the mason dixon line makes you complicit .... DUCK!
I hate to say this, but civil insurrection would be dealt with accordingly.
These direct or veiled threats of "civil war" if you don't do as I say are over the line, Mr. Yeager and cohorts.
OM-- I know this video was put together by the NRA, but listen to it anyway. Most of it is the residents of New Orleans talking about their experience after Katrina of Nagan's Gestapo-- how they confiscated guns from people that weren't doing anything wrong, and letting the street gangs be, and at the same time, watching these same street gangs operate and not doing a thing about it.
Here is a link that might be useful: Gun confiscation after Katrina
I don't click on video links for information. I'll read transcripts of sworn testimony, but I won't waste my time viewing something that I cannot verify.
If it's worthwhile information, it will appear in print.
Well, I guess it's a good thing your initials aren't OM, then, isn't it!
Edit-- Most of what's posted here as sources, from EITHER side, is not sworn testimony, and even that which is-- I KNOW that no one has ever lied or embellished under oath.
This post was edited by bill_vincent on Fri, Jan 11, 13 at 19:19
is not sworn testimony
Verifiable is the key word - someone's sworn testimony, transparency re methodology and data, and sources, sources, sources.
The police claimed they only took guns that were stolen or found in abandoned homes. After a lawsuit was filed by the NRA and others, guns were returned even when "proof of purchase" was not shown. Those who claimed guns just had to sign an affadavit saying the gun/s were theirs.
I did find an article in USAToday that said the suit was filed and dropped when the police/city agreed to return guns.
Also because of what happened legislation has been passed on the state and federal level so that this will not happen in the future.
Unless all distrust of government includes the military and police (which is fine by me) than I imagine the guns confiscated might have possibly been found in evacuated home.....unless of course you would prefer that the cops spent all their time searching every single home in "that place" to yank guns out of people's hands. That I have a hard time with :)
Im not the prain kind pal. But it doesnt take much to see how/when the decline really took hiold.
When I try to click on your link, Bill, my computer wants me to create a Utube account, which I don't want particularly to do.
But before I get switched over to that message, i saw that its an NRA utube with only 615 views, put up in Dec 2012?
David I had to google the story because I saw the same thing ... maybe it was created with the "doomsday" that was doomed not to happen in mind and how all those "gangs/thugs" would be the only ones armed and coming to rape your women and steal your stuff.
So I guess the next time the cops come to your door (after a disaster) don't assume they are coming to help ... just OPEN FIRE and let er' rip patriots!!
You know you really do not need "entertainment tv", the world is entertaining enough ... now I have to decide if I should buy the good tinfoil or generic.
"Im not the prain kind pal"
You are not the praying kind. Yet, you have no problem blaming massacres on a lack of God in our society. I can't say that makes much sense.
Frank, I'm not much for "prain", either. Atleast not in the usual sense. You'll never find a stronger Christian, though.
David-- put up 12/11/12, and right now has 361 views. I'm not having a problem getting to it, but that might be because I DO have a you-tube account. (I've got several uploaded of my own-- dogs and tile)
OM, I'm glad you see this as something to make light of. From what I saw in that video, if the same thing were to happen again down there? I get the feeling that's EXACTLY what would happen.
Frank: "You are not the praying kind. Yet, you have no problem blaming massacres on a lack of God in our society. I can't say that makes much sense."
Then don't. Worship means different things to different people, as does "praying".
That's my educated opinion.
"That's my educated opinion"
I didn't see the video, like David I have no intention of signing up ... and it wouldn't let me view it so I have no idea "what you saw".
If that is what you believe will happen, the next time there is a disaster "down there", lets hope all the first responders stay home.
Rabbit hole time...
lets hope all the first responders stay home.
If they're going to abuse the public trust as they did last time? I absolutely agree. Stay the hell home. They don't need or want you.
Any reasonable ideas at ?? Bill? Anyone? Besides an unworkable firearms ban or the ridiculous arming of most as reasonable "solutions"?
I'm learning how to use a touch screen, ipad sort of thing and was in a tearing hurry when I posted the last time, some of what I read just a minute ago confused me and I'm the one who wrote it out. I think it managed to convey the basic thoughts I wanted to put out there even though, at points, it did make for a curious read. Please forgive.
I still hope for someone, anyone, to offer up reasonable, workable ideas toward a solution?
I've got several. I posted a book in one of the first threads that came out after Newtown, and I'm not doing it again. I got enough ridicule for it, even though it included several of the very same firearms restrictions that Biden and Obama are looking at. It also included several other recommendations that had nothing to do with firearms. But who am I-- just some dumb tilesetter.
As for the gun ban, looks like it's losing steam quick.
Here is a link that might be useful: National Review on an NYT report
Part of the charm of organized religion is the taking away of personal responsibility, including figuring out how the world works on your own.
Alot of things could be more pesky than some kinda ban. Bans mean nothing to most ,There have probably been 1/2 a million of the AR platforms sold in the past 2 weeks. just an increase in value.
Private sale restrictions would be a real hassle, maybe. longer waits would be an inconvenience to thoswe who do a lot of swapping looking for that xtra good shooter. There is room for much harassment. A ban may be the easiest to work around.
Its a lack of caring, empathy, and good. Its a liberal world and we gotta get used to the results.
The fiscal cliff deal just made yet more tens of billions for the money men and Wall Street, the latest reminder of who really controls the government these days.
But yeah, it's a liberal world. And right wingers are the caring, empathetic do-gooders in the crowd, the ones with the social conscience.
I'm sorry honey, he had to stay after school for firing his gun in class again.
"Its a lack of caring, empathy, and good. Its a liberal world and we gotta get used to the results."
I do have to admit that you are funny. You are one of the few people that can manage to blame this violence on Liberals. My question is, does the NRA send out the hallucinogens, or do you have to buy them on your own?
This one tickled me right to hell. A gun parts shop paid tribute to the one person responsible for the windfall he's been experiencing over the last few weeks, naming his new online domain after that person:. You will soon be able to buy all your parts for building your own AR-15 from the following site:
Here is a link that might be useful: Thanks Di!!
Brush: "A diseased society can only be cleansed by extermination."
Stop procrastinating; get to work on that ark!
"So I guess the next time the cops come to your door (after a disaster) don't assume they are coming to help ..."
Oh, that's classic:
"The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help."
And then there's the story about the college professor at Florida State University(I think) who said in his blog that Newtown didn't actually happen. Those kids weren't killed. These are all actors who are under the direction of the government to create this horrific event so they can take away our guns. This guy actually said that little Emilie was still alive. There was proof because when Obama was meeting the parents ,there was this little blond girl wearing a dress that Emilie was seen in.
Seriously folks. This is the idiocy of the far right nut jobs. Anderson Cooper did a segment on it tonight, but I left the gym before I saw the whole thing. A college professor!!!
and the far right is somehow worse than the far left!! HA!
This morning I read the kid with a gun surrendered when the kid who had been bullying him, scared out of his wits, apologized. Seeing and hearing the genuine emotion of the apology the kid with the gun gave up.
We live in an incredibly violent society where easy access to lethal weapons makes it awfully easy to respond to violence with violence. It doesn't, and can't work. Martin Luther King Jr. made this point very eloquently:
The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral,
begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy.
Instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it.
Through violence you may murder the liar,
but you cannot murder the lie, nor establish the truth.
Through violence you may murder the hater,
but you do not murder hate.
In fact, violence merely increases hate.
So it goes.
Returning violence for violence multiplies violence,
adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars.
Darkness cannot drive out darkness:
only light can do that.
Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that.
Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
Of course, MLK Jr. was shot in the head.
Too bad the kid with the gun, and all others who turn to weapons, don't change their response to the violence around them and inside of them.
We live in an incredibly violent society where easy access to lethal weapons makes it awfully easy to respond to violence with violence. It doesn't, and can't work
Althea, I'll agree with you to a point. It's NEVER the "best" option. Nor should it ever be the "first" option. But it SHOULD still be an option, if required. If someone in my presence opens fire, or even becomes an imminent threat, I won't just sit there, wating for my bullet.
You know Bill, I used to think yours was a "natural" response, until I read that WWII had a high casualty rate because soldiers, faced with the choice of killing someone or dying, would choose death. These were trained soldiers. The military had to ramp up their training to over ride this natural instinct to not kill. Maybe some people would be able to shoot someone attacking them. I don't think that response is very widespread.
You never know until you're faced with it, and you're right-- each person is different. I've only drawn my weapon once, and I was very surprised with how calm I was while the event was happening. Thank God I didn't have to fire, but I would've had no problem doing so if it were required. I was a wreck afterward, but at the time, I most certainly would've shot if I needed to.
Yeah,FF, the far right is infinitely much worse than the far left. A Gazillion times worse!!!!!!
Horse crap. Extremists on either side are rotten.
"I was a wreck afterward...."
Bill, I think PTSD used to be called shell shock. Lets hope you never ever again feel you have to draw a gun, for any reason.
Althea-- from your lips to God's ears.
Those kids who turn to violence see it daily in the movies, in videa games and hear it on the streets. Its small wonder they choose the path they do. Pretty hard to argue these things done have an effect.
PTSD is, I have been told over the past few appointments, a rather complex mix of symptoms with different triggers. I wondered about this myself, I never saw anything in myself that made me think that.
But sonething a little unsettling happened yesterday that has me reconsidering. I decided to go across the street at lunch to Macy's and Nordstrom on a very unsuccessful quest to find a couple of tan or beige dress shirts. I usually walk, but it was already late into my hour, so I drove. Ordinarily I park in the outdoor lot, but it was full, so I headed into the parking garage.
I immediately had this rush of adrenaline, a fight or flight reaction, followed by a cold chill and a sense of great apprehension.
Why? Because the orientation, configuration, and look of the garage was almost identical to the one parked in for three weeks at the hospital where I did the psychiatric day program. It brought back uncomfortable memories.
Stupid to be afraid of a parking garage. And, NO ONE out there has men's shirts in any shade of brown -now that is crazy, they still sell brown suits.
Those kids who turn to violence see it daily in the movies, in videa games and hear it on the streets. Its small wonder they choose the path they do. Pretty hard to argue these things don't have an effect.
Three things -
One, we worship our military and what they do, "support the troops" and all, and as a country spend a mind-boggling amount of money perfecting ways to kill people, and kill them we do, by the thousands every year in our new, improved, non-stop war on terror.
Two, The same violent computer games are played all over the world by all kinds of teenage kids, yet......
Three - I thought it was pretty ironic that the NRA here is going after the video game as the cause of the violence. First Amendment, anyone? The video makers don't have freedom of speech?
Now I can agree that incredibly bloody video games is somewhat of a stretch of the First Amendment, but no more than some perceived right to high powered military weapons with extended magazines is covered by the Second Amendment.
And many of us think that they're both nothing that the Founding Fathers ever envisioned, and its fantasy land to think they would cover porn and assault weapons.
One, we worship our military and what they do, "support the troops" and all
WRONG. We respect them for the sacrifices they make, from financial and marriage hardships right on up to putting their lives on the line. That's not worship. There's a huge difference.
Right. The first amendment deserves every protection. The 2nd can suck wind.
"Those kids who turn to violence see it daily in the movies, in videa games and hear it on the streets. Its small wonder they choose the path they do. Pretty hard to argue these things done have an effect"
FF we have these same video games in Australia,,,,just as much as you do and yet we dont have the gun massacres.
care to explain that?
Something in your water?
thanks for your contribution to the debate elvis. we are far better informed because of it.
Well, if its just a matter of his personal responsibility, nothing to do with the unfettered sales of assault rifles and extended magazines, just collateral damage if some nut uses assault rifles and extended magazines to riddle 20 children and can't possibly infringe on the 2nd amendment right to have all kinds of assault rifles and extended magazines, then why not use the same logic for violent video games?
I mean, most of the video game players are responsible kids, who just enjoy playing them, having competitions, and whats the harm? Why should they suffer if some nut - who, for all we know, never even played any of these games, but we do know his Mom took him to the range to shoot - goes on a rampage? Why should the video game people have to restrict their rights for the greater good, when the NRA crowd won't give an inch, and push in the other direction, fighting to loosen what ever gun laws are there?
So why shouldn't the video game people do the same? Create more and more bloody, porn-filled games, and ignore the deaths?
Nice logic david...and hopefully they will see their argument for what it is now.
WHAt is the matter here. Assault weapons are banned for gosh sake! Have been.
The NRA is' nt going after anything, they are putting forth a thought topic, more than the banners can come up with.
Of course the 1st deserves its due, but as with the 2nd, they both have limitations. maybe time to ban some bullshoot?
Man, I really cant explain the differeneces between countries? Why do vietnames eat rats and we here dont?
Mercy, nobody worshipped the military when I came home! Then, I never figured on being some kind a hero anyhow. Just doin my job.
well the vietnames thing is probably cultural , but in the case of Australia and America you have 2 first world coutrie s of similar culture who faced/are facing the same problem and are choosing to address it diferently. that is what makes it a interesting and worthy of coment FF.
hey, I met a couple Aussies in Nam, cool dudes. cept for the way they talked, coulda thought they was from home! One of em went to Bangkok with us . we stayed at the Morakot Hotel and had Mr. Pol drive us around all week.
Naw it wasnt cultural, just a bunch of stinkin hippies spewin their crap. probly should of run a culture bon them!!I am sure they were toxic.
Don't try to explain David. They don't get it. They're too busy gathering petitions to deport Piers Morgan because he's trying to take away their precious guns. Don't even mention the first amendment to them. They blame Hollywood and video games, not their precious guns.
My grandson is an AP honor student and star athlete on his school's soccer and track teams and he plays video games. Your point is? There are no guns in their family nor in any part of the family he's related to.
Hey Lily, where in HELL you think they get the idea to USE the guns? You can bet the GUNS don't talk em into it! You keep right on putting your hero Piers up on that pedistal. He's over here because they basically KICKED him out of over there!! There was a reason I said what I did to Jon, and for the same reason he answered the way HE did! Jon and I never agree on ANYTHING, but we agreed on THAT!
"Hey Lily, where in HELL you think they get the idea to USE the guns" from watching the NEWS I would assume !
Video games dont give us the idea to use guns so why would you assume that
... from watching the NEWS I would assume !
...they basically KICKED him out of over there!!
Truth. American media and entertainment is riddled with Brit Filth. (Failed In London - Try Hollywood) :)
There was a picture of a sign at a gun show posted on another forum:
NO LOADED FIREARMS
CLIPS OR MAGS ALLOWED.
ALL FIREARMS MUST BE CHECKED.
Keeping guns out of gun shows is a good idea, but keeping guns out of schools & movies & restaurants is a bad idea?
from watching the NEWS I would assume
From following U.S. foreign policy as well.
Don't like what another country is doing?
Covet their resources?
See an opportunity for geo-political advantage?
Order up an invasion or air strikes, and international law be d@mned!