NCHFP Spaghetti Sauce without Meat

scunningham(6)August 11, 2012

When adding the oregano and parsley do they mean fresh or dried. I made this before and can't remeber :(

Thanks you, Scott

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Linda_Lou(SW Wa.)

Dried herbs.

    Bookmark   August 11, 2012 at 11:57AM
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scunningham(6)

Thank you Linda, I have some fresh herbs growing. I will get them in the dehydrator this weekend.

    Bookmark   August 11, 2012 at 12:18PM
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ellen_inmo(6)

Question for you all. Am I correct that this is a modified version of the Ball Blue Book "Seasoned Tomato Sauce"? I'm wondering if it's approximately the same recipe before trying. I'm in the process of trying many approved recipes in search of the best one for my family's taste. Right now I'm simmering for supper a canned sauce I made weeks ago from the Better Homes and Gardens canning book. It's kinda......herby.... or something. Not so sure about it, flavor wise. I've also made the Ball Blue Book sauce, which only cooks for 10 minutes before processing. It's a bit watery, but haven't tasted it yet as a meal. I have at least 60 pounds of tomatoes blanched and cut up in the freezer waiting for me to thaw out and can into spaghetti sauce. I'm glad I'm sampling the various sauces before using all the tomatoes into one thing.

    Bookmark   August 11, 2012 at 8:10PM
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digdirt2(6b-7a No.Cent. AR HZ8 Sun-35)

Am I correct that this is a modified version of the Ball Blue Book "Seasoned Tomato Sauce"?

No, Ball recipes are based on NCHFP research and development, not the other way around. :) But in this case they are 2 quite different recipes with different ingredients.

BBB Seasoned Tomato Sauce (p. 23 current edition) contains 1/2 again as many tomatoes, 6x as many onions, 2x as much garlic, no mushrooms or celery or green peppers, and different spices so the flavors would be quite different.

But I also note that the BBB recipe calls for cooking much longer than you indicated ("10 mins. before processing"?). The Seasoned Tomato Sauce recipes calls for simmering for 20 min. before milling and then cooking until reduced by 1/2 and that will usually take several hours.

Dave

    Bookmark   August 11, 2012 at 10:44PM
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ellen_inmo(6)

Ok, wow. Clearly I have the wrong recipe that i thought was for this! Lol! Online, many times the Ncfhg website and others often say "this is a similiar version of BBB such n such".. Ive clearly got one mixed with the other. The recipe I was referring to was the "Italian Tomato Sauce" on Page 74 of the BBB that I have, listed under special diet. "Cover and cook 10 minutes". There is a recipe out there somewhere that says it is "a modified version" of this one. Sorry, I had it mixed up. :-)

    Bookmark   August 11, 2012 at 10:55PM
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ellen_inmo(6)

I mean no disrespect to which organization is the "leader of the pact"....I'm still learning what's what and whose what. :-)

    Bookmark   August 11, 2012 at 10:58PM
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digdirt2(6b-7a No.Cent. AR HZ8 Sun-35)

No problem. I'm sure they don't take offense. :)

However please note that any time you see "this is a similiar version of BBB such n such" it is a personally modified, untested and potentially unsafe recipe.

You will never see that on the NCHFP site recipes but many of the other questionable or downright unreliable canning website often say that in an attempt to legitimate their recipes.

"Italian Tomato Sauce" on Page 74 of the BBB

Note that this is still substantially different from the NCHFP Spaghetti Sauce without Meat recipe. Different proportions of vegetables and no mushrooms, oil or brown sugar and different spices. Not sure why it would be classed as a special diet recipe as it isn't.

Part of the confusion might come from using the labels "spaghetti sauce" and "tomato sauce" interchangeably. They aren't the same thing although some people seem to use them as such. There are many tomato sauce canning recipes available but there are relatively few spaghetti sauce recipes because the ingredients are so much more complex. In canning they are very different things.

There is a recipe out there somewhere that says it is "a modified version" of this one.

I'm sure there is but it should be used with great care or best ignored. There are many to-be-avoided canning websites that are often discussed here which is why we so often recommend sticking with only tested and approved sites until one has enough training or experience to recognize the difference.

Hope this helps.

Dave

    Bookmark   August 12, 2012 at 12:52PM
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ellen_inmo(6)

Thanks so much Dave for all the clarifications. God bless you for helping us all here as you do. Not everyone would give so much of their time to do so. I can't tell you how appreciative I am! I was also curious as to why that sauce was in the Special Diet category. I'm glad I tried it, though, it seems to be the favored one here at my home. Simple, and can be modified easy when serving. I'm not really enjoying many of the other "spaghetti sauce" recipes I'm coming onto, including Mrs. Wages. Something isn't quite right, too strong or bitter, or something "off" flavor wise. A simple sauce, flavored slightly, but not a plain juice, is probably what I'm after. Don't want to waste all those tomatoes!

    Bookmark   August 12, 2012 at 2:25PM
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pattypan(z6b CT)

the NCHFP spaghetti sauce without meat is the best i've made. tomato questions : many of my biggest tomatoes do not ripen evenly. i must use them before the ripest part turns soft. how much of the green part can i use without changing the flavor ? and- can anyone really tell the difference if some tomatoes have been frozen ? to split all that cooking, i've also thought of making some sauce, refrigerating it for 1 or 2 days, then adding more tomatoes and canning . it's hard to get 30 ripe pounds at once. is that okay, or should i freeze the sauce for a few days? thanks for any help ! pat

    Bookmark   September 3, 2014 at 11:55AM
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pattypan(z6b CT)

the NCHFP spaghetti sauce without meat is the best i've made. tomato questions : many of my biggest tomatoes do not ripen evenly. i must use them before the ripest part turns soft. how much of the green part can i use without changing the flavor ? and- can anyone really tell the difference if some tomatoes have been frozen ? to split all that cooking, i've also thought of making some sauce, refrigerating it for 1 or 2 days, then adding more tomatoes and canning . it's hard to get 30 ripe pounds at once. is that okay, or should i freeze the sauce for a few days? thanks for any help ! pat

    Bookmark   September 3, 2014 at 11:56AM
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digdirt2(6b-7a No.Cent. AR HZ8 Sun-35)

how much of the green part can i use without changing the flavor ?

Normally you wouldn't use any of it. You just toss it.

can anyone really tell the difference if some tomatoes have been frozen ?

Scientifically it changes the flavor by changing the brix, breaking down some of the sugars. Whether one can actually taste that difference depends on the individual's taste buds. Freezing also changes the texture somewhat to a softer texture as cell walls are broken down. How noticeable that texture difference is also depends on the individual.

IMO most wouldn't notice any difference in either one - taste or texture - because of the added seasonings and the cooking done.

i've also thought of making some sauce, refrigerating it for 1 or 2 days, then adding more tomatoes and canning

The general guideline is no more than 24 hours without freezing as it allows for bacterial development and further flavor deterioration. But you do what you have to do. Why not just half the recipe instead?

Dave

    Bookmark   September 3, 2014 at 2:20PM
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pattypan(z6b CT)

sorry dave, i did not get your reply via email, and have been sooo busy canning spaghetti sauce and other stuff. guess i feel that doing a half load is such a waste of time and gas.....i'd end up canning twice as much. i did freeze half a batch (tomatoes only) that i cooked down a bit, did another batch 5 days later that went into the fridge with the frozen batch, all finished up and canned the next day. much easier on me ! of course i just started PC'ing again so it feels like a lot of work , but i'm getting into the groove with repitition.
the sauce is so good, i'm thinking it can only get better after a few weeks on the shelf.

    Bookmark   September 14, 2014 at 9:57AM
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pattypan(z6b CT)

sheila, in another thread you explained why you thought you could sub onions for peppers in this recipe. did dave or carol give opinions? if so, it follows you could sub celery or peppers for onions ( recipe says celery or peppers.) that's in a thick sauce. but if onions and peppers canned alone, the same way, ended up with the same pH, would the subbing also apply to relishes, jardiniere, etc ? i'm not thinking of taste, just safety. of course they were cooked first, but in oil . doesn't the oil infuse the celery, onions and peppers? hmmmmm....

This post was edited by pattypan on Sun, Sep 14, 14 at 20:51

    Bookmark   September 14, 2014 at 5:07PM
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Rose_NW_PA

I made this and used fresh herbs from my garden. Just used twice the amt. called for in the recipe because dried herbs are more concentrated. I chopped them up in my food processor before adding to the sauce.

    Bookmark   September 14, 2014 at 8:50PM
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pattypan(z6b CT)

i believe that all the experts here would say that's not a good idea. you can sub dried for fresh herbs, but not the other way around.

    Bookmark   September 14, 2014 at 8:58PM
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pattypan(z6b CT)

rose, did you can it with fresh herbs, or make it to just eat ? i hope you didn't can it.
this is from a thread about a pickling recipe : he meant fresh- not freah.

RE: Can I mess around with spices in pickle recipes?
Posted by digdirt 6 -7 AR (My Page) on
Mon, Aug 26, 13 at 10:11

Agree with Carol. Recipes are used in canning because of the science underlying it. Unlike cooking where experimentation is encouraged. Tread very carefully.

Dried spices, dried herbs, dried foods are fine to play with within reason but freah herbs and food additions are not.

    Bookmark   September 14, 2014 at 11:44PM
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Rose_NW_PA

I canned it. It does say minced parsley which normally means fresh in my opinion. I have written to the NCHFP asking for clarification on this point.

    Bookmark   September 15, 2014 at 11:51AM
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2ajsmama

I agree with minced parsley being fresh. I don't know what oregano was intended, fresh or dried, but since this is a PC recipe I don't think 4 Tbsp total in 9 pints yield is going to kill anyone, considering it calls for mushrooms too. If you left out the mushrooms, even better.

Now with a BWB pickling recipe you don't want to be subbing fresh for dried, or increasing fresh herbs.

Let us know what NCHFP says.

This post was edited by ajsmama on Mon, Sep 15, 14 at 12:32

    Bookmark   September 15, 2014 at 12:30PM
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2ajsmama

Oh, patty, just saw your question above. I *knew* I was opening a can (or jar?) of worms there. Yes, you can use peppers or celery or a mix b/c this recipe says so. I said I was going out on a limb and Dave probably wouldn't agree, but gave my rationale.

Now, I know the salsa study was an acidification study, but since the spaghetti sauce is a PC recipe too I thought onions instead of peppers was safe but when you get into pickling, you really have to be careful. Just b/c a salsa study and a salsa recipe (Choice Salsa, I think Annie's too) say peppers and onions are basically equivalent (the acid in the recipes is sufficient to acidify either/both), and a PC recipe says you can sub celery for peppers, does NOT equate to peppers=onions=celery in all recipes, either PC or BWB.

I'm not a food scientist, but peppers and onions have pretty close to the same pH to begin with. Onions might have more water activity, but the acid in the salsa recipes is enough to allow the substitution, AND it was specifically measured in that study. The pH of celery is just that little bit higher than peppers OR onions, and it's more fibrous than peppers but also seems to have more free water so unless a pickling recipe says you can sub celery for peppers, I'd not assume it was safe.

I made a mixed vegetable pickle last month based on the JoP recipe but only after I emailed Linda Z and asked if there had to be a certain proportion of green tomatoes, etc. since I had mostly squash and beans, no cabbage. She said go ahead, feel free to create my own mix, but that's a straight vinegar pickle, the recipe (Picalilli) says you can change up proportions, and I double-checked with her. Oh, and it still didn't look like enough brine (density issue) so I added another cup of vinegar for a total of 3.5C of vinegar for 13.5C of veggies as compared to 3.25C of vinegar for 13.5C of veggies in the NCHFP recipe (actually they use 4.5C vinegar for 18.75C veggies).

This post was edited by ajsmama on Mon, Sep 15, 14 at 12:55

    Bookmark   September 15, 2014 at 12:51PM
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pattypan(z6b CT)

interesting, Sheila. i know Dave says not to compare PC with BWB. guess in my mind i wondered if the acid of BWB trumped the high heat of PC. my mind tries to make logical connections- i'll have to work against that !!
we have too much pickled stuff on the shelf, that's why i got a PC. now i know to try other vinegars(v. white) or lemon juice.
btw- i used dried parsley, still tastes great.

    Bookmark   September 15, 2014 at 1:29PM
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digdirt2(6b-7a No.Cent. AR HZ8 Sun-35)

I can't be sure what the issue is here so:

I made this and used fresh herbs from my garden. Just used twice the amt. called for in the recipe because dried herbs are more concentrated.

That's a no per the guidelines. If the recipe specifies fresh herbs they can be used. If it doesn't they cannot be substituted for the dried. If it doesn't stipulate dried or fresh, then it will always be dried. Not only is the pH of fresh herbs far more alkaline than dried but the free water (also alkaline) is increased.

Other wise you cannot accurately compare/generalize from one recipe to another, from one method of preserving to another so how does it follow that " if the acid of BWB trumped the high heat of PC" or that because one recipe allows you to use a choice of celery OR (not and/or, just one of them) translate to mean you can use onions? Or that salsa research applies to spaghetti sauce? It doesn't.

The guideline has always been that you can sub like for like only. So we work within the confines of the tested recipe. We do not try to re-structure the recipe to meet our personal requirements. That road is unsafe.

Dave

    Bookmark   September 16, 2014 at 11:36AM
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