Who said this, and do you agree?

bill_vincent(Central Maine)January 6, 2013

The real curse in America is apathetic, disconnected, uncaring, unconscionable Americans who dare not engage in this unique, sacred experiment in self-government.

And don't cheat by searching it!

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jerzeegirl(9)

I don't agree with the self government part or at least I don't know what he or she means. The US has a representative government.

    Bookmark   January 6, 2013 at 11:22AM
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marquest(z5 PA)

Self-government. The same stupid Personal Responsibility speech.

We have a government for a reason if we want to go back to caveman times then what is the point of using the word government. Call it what it is....Self.

Self-government is every man for himself. Not my idea of America.

    Bookmark   January 6, 2013 at 11:27AM
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momj47(7A)

We don't have self-government, thank goodness, we have a democratic form (or a republican form) of government, and I think Ted Nugent is the complete right wing-nut. I think if you look wing-nut up in Wikipedia, Nugent is the illustration they use.

    Bookmark   January 6, 2013 at 11:33AM
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bill_vincent(Central Maine)

That's not what is meant by "self government" as it's used here. "Self" is the people who elect from their own ranks, their own leadership.

I can kind of understand your animosity toward it, though. If the apathy being spoken of here didn't exist, You wouldn't see the people in Washington that you do now, and too many are comfortable with how things are. I'm not one of those.

    Bookmark   January 6, 2013 at 11:43AM
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Circus Peanut

I question the use of the word "sacred", which seems out of place. No government is "sacred".

    Bookmark   January 6, 2013 at 11:45AM
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Campanula UK Z8

oh yeah - we have a few private (not maintained by the local council) roads in Cambridge. Coincidentally, they are in the richest areas of the city.....and they are the worst, muddiest, potholed mess in the whole of Cambridge - after all, why bother maintaining it when someone else might volunteer - although, of course, nobody does anything except whine and ignore it.
Dream on, Bill.

    Bookmark   January 6, 2013 at 11:52AM
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jerzeegirl(9)

"Self" is the people who elect from their own ranks, their own leadership.

Only a true narcissist would consider that self-government.

Think about it, bill. What does "self" mean?

    Bookmark   January 6, 2013 at 11:53AM
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marquest(z5 PA)

too many are comfortable with how things are. I'm not one of those.

I am not comfortable how things are now. I am comfortable with the concept of America and what it was intended to do and worked in the past.

I did not get involved or suddenly pay attention to government when we got the first African American President.

My observation is many that discuss government, policies, what policies are good for them, their neighbor, their children have no idea what our government does or how it works. Starting at that point how do some decide it should be torn apart to be replaced with what?

    Bookmark   January 6, 2013 at 11:54AM
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marshallz10(z9-10 CA)

Self-governing people would constitute a form of democracy. The Jeffersonian ideal of yeomen farmers and craftspeople organized in small communities. Members of those communities would elect one of their own to look after shared common interests. Otherwise all governing is local and leadership directly accountable to the voters.

    Bookmark   January 6, 2013 at 12:07PM
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david52 Zone 6

I don't know what the exact quote is, but Jefferson had something about a well-educated, well informed population is essential to a functioning Democracy.

I know a depressing number of people who don't vote. Basically, they're so caught up in their day-to-day lives: earning a living, dealing with health issues, 20-somethings and college kids way more preoccupied hunting for spouses and/or getting an education, then the flood of people moving to new jobs who don't bother to register, etc. And they don't seem to realize that what goes on politically already has an enormous effect on their lives, let alone what is coming down the pike.

    Bookmark   January 6, 2013 at 12:14PM
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bill_vincent(Central Maine)

JG-- in this case, self means the citizenry of the country.

CP-- it's not the government that's sacred-- it's democracy.

campanula-- it just might be a dream. But I keep going on record here in town criticizing the voters here, hoping it;ll wake people up. I posted this same quote in its entirety on my facebook page. A liberal friend of mine answered with "We CAN find common ground", and this was my reply to her:
yes, we can. But first "we" have to get involved. Nobody gives a crap any more. They give lipservice (read that as bi*ch and moan) when things don't go their way, but they're not willing to get involved and DO something about it! Every 4 years here in town, we'll get about a 60-70% turnout for the presidential election. Other than that, we're lucky to break 10%. Last summer, 110 people, out of over 3 THOUSAND voters here in town, voted on the different warrants of the new town budget. Only 3 HUNDRED voted in the election the week before, that included two selectboard members. There ought to be a law-- if you don't vote, you HAVE to SHUT THE **** UP!!

And voting is just the beginning. People need to get up off their butts and do more than provide lipservice. If you're going to talk the talk, WALK THE WALK!

And yes, I do. I'm about as involved here in town as I can be, and I'll be headed up to Augusta in a week to speak at the state house re a gun bill coming up. Susan Collins already knows my name, and ol Angus is about to meet me.

Oh-- I didn't post the quote in its entirety because I WAS loooking for common ground. I should've known better. here's the whole quote:

“The real curse in America today is not Barack Obama and Eric Holder and Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden and Richard Daley and Rahm Emanuel,” Nugent said. “They’re not the real punks. The real curse in America is apathetic, disconnected, uncaring, unconscionable Americans who dare not engage in this unique, sacred experiment in self-government.”
Ted Nugent

    Bookmark   January 6, 2013 at 12:20PM
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jerzeegirl(9)

So he's saying it's not our leaders who are the problem, it's the people who do not vote. Then why does the GOP try to suppress the vote whenever they see a chance? Even Rick Scott said it was a big mistake to cut down on voting days in Florida. 'Splain please - why do they do it?

    Bookmark   January 6, 2013 at 12:58PM
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rosie(Deep South, USA 7A/B)

Well, I understood the principle of self government well enough, and the reference to our sacred experiment, but I did have to look up the quote-and was sorry. Finding myself of one mind (ew!) with Ted Nugent definitely doesn't belong in my comfy sunny Sunday afternoon. That said, who's HE paraphrasing? I know I've read better stated versions.

Anyway, the turnout in this last election should be at least somewhat encouraging. We may still be way below a lot of other countries, but you have to admit the nation was unusually engaged this time around.

    Bookmark   January 6, 2013 at 1:00PM
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mrskjun(9)

Sorry bill, if you said the sky is blue, the liberals here would swear it's red and you just can't see it because you are a conservative, and it's all conservatives fault because they are trying to suppress the red sky. Good try though.

    Bookmark   January 6, 2013 at 1:02PM
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chase_gw

Huh?

I can't abide Ted Nugent but in the context of that comment it seems to me he was referring to those who do not engage in the democratic system.

I don't know that I would have used such strong language but I do believe that apathy and inaction are a real issue in both our countries.

We tend to complain much and do little especially when it comes to truly understand the issues. I think that's what I find most discouraging is how so many just take in what they are fed, and regurgitate it without truly digesting the information. Or just throw out meaningless one liners that have not much to do with anything.

    Bookmark   January 6, 2013 at 1:08PM
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Embothrium(USDA 8 Sunset 5 WA)

>so many just take in what they are fed, and regurgitate itDing!

>throw out meaningless one linersHey-y-y!!

This post was edited by bboy on Sun, Jan 6, 13 at 13:19

    Bookmark   January 6, 2013 at 1:18PM
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bill_vincent(Central Maine)

Anyway, the turnout in this last election should be at least somewhat encouraging.

Not even a little bit. Next year, the poll numbers will be right back down where they were last year.

Then why does the GOP try to suppress the vote whenever they see a chance?

Right-- those black folks hanging out side polling stations in the fatigues were GOP.
Democrats are just as guilty.

so many just take in what they are fed, and regurgitate it

Only when it makes sense. Which is why I've never repeated anything from you.

    Bookmark   January 6, 2013 at 2:57PM
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chase_gw

Okey dokey.......sorry I contributed my thoughts.

    Bookmark   January 6, 2013 at 3:06PM
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marshallz10(z9-10 CA)

Three lines of thinking come to me when following this other past threads:

Defining what is a true blue good American of admirable qualities

The urging is mostly coming from the rightist minority rather than centrist or liberal elements -- taking back our country

Promoting the sense that voter suppression is not bad -- true blue Americans are admirably prepared for the franchise.

    Bookmark   January 6, 2013 at 3:15PM
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jerzeegirl(9)

Then why does the GOP try to suppress the vote whenever they see a chance?

Right-- those black folks hanging out side polling stations in the fatigues were GOP.
Democrats are just as guilty.

What does that have to do with anything? Listen...I am in a state that tried the voter suppression thing and even the freaking governor admitted it was a mistake. So I don't need your anecdotes about how it was really the dems who suppressed the vote through intimidation. You are just making scheiss up now.

    Bookmark   January 6, 2013 at 5:54PM
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marshallz10(z9-10 CA)

That is the FOXWORLDNETDRUDGE meme along with the usual nutters on Hate (all-Liberals) Radio.

    Bookmark   January 6, 2013 at 6:00PM
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bill_vincent(Central Maine)

What does that have to do with anything?

Listen-- well if it didn't happen in YOUR state, then it must not have happened at all, right? Like I said, it wasn't just the GOP. But you don't give a crap about it UNLESS it was the GOP. In other words, it's a finger pointing thing, and not a real concern of yours.

    Bookmark   January 6, 2013 at 7:04PM
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Circus Peanut

Bill, are you OK? You kinda came flying into this thread itchin' for a fight. Which is understandable when you're in the midst of fighting apathy in your town, but possibly not applicable to the forum members here?

    Bookmark   January 6, 2013 at 7:11PM
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Campanula UK Z8

Thank you, Bill, for your considered response. I am not being facetious, just highly sceptical of the logistics of 'self-governance'. I do have a problem since I am not confident that we actually have a functioning democracy, despite the surface appearance (parliament, differing ideologies, a voting system etc.) Moreover, I am predisposed to want a smaller, more localised system of governance than our current behemoth consisting of a narrow section of society (mainly men, mainly privately educated, mainly priviledged, nepotistic and self-serving). On the other hand, I do recognise the need for a fair system of taxation and allocation of funds since I want to live in a society which has adequate safety nets, looks after all its citizens and recognises the need for social justice (socialism, if you will). A more individualistic society tends to be one where certain priorities triumph (the desire to further oneself and one's family, the race for profits) whereas I would prefer a more co-operative, communal system. I guess a lot of us feel angry and let down because of a lack of accountability and an abiding suspicion that we are actually ruled by shadowy figures who have never featured in any democratic process whatsoever (bankers and finaciers, property developers, pharmaceutical companies, military, and so on)

    Bookmark   January 6, 2013 at 7:13PM
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jerzeegirl(9)

Bill, I am in no mood for this. Florida wasn't the only state that practiced voter suppression - there was Pennsylvania, there was Ohio, there is even Texas. I am just familiar with Florida's governor's shenanigans which is why I mentioned it. I don't think I need to write a discourse with footnotes about voter suppression in the last election - it was well documented. Even if you heard there were people trying to intimidate voters that wouldn't have prevented anyone from voting, whereas the goal of voter suppression is to do just that...prevent them from voting.

If you can't argue calmly and not lose your temper, then I'm done with this topic. Go find someone else to berate.

    Bookmark   January 6, 2013 at 7:19PM
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elvis

"Promoting the sense that voter suppression is not bad -- true blue Americans are admirably prepared for the franchise."

"True blue" means steadfastly loyal. So, what do you mean, Marshall?

    Bookmark   January 6, 2013 at 7:26PM
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bill_vincent(Central Maine)

JG-- me berate YOU? I was looking at this as the other way around. You're going to sit there and tell me you didn't hear about the Black Panthers standing outside polling stations and intimidating people? See, the difference between me and you is I won't dispute the GOP did it. You-- you want to just sweep the rest under the rug as if it didn't happen. And if you're not in the mood for it, then why are you belaboring it?

Either way, what does Uncle Ted have to do AT ALL with voter suppression? If anything, you and him are on the very same page in that respect! So why the argument? Unless you just happen to be in the mood for it? And yes, NOW I'm berating you.

    Bookmark   January 6, 2013 at 7:38PM
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bill_vincent(Central Maine)

Bill, are you OK? You kinda came flying into this thread itchin' for a fight. Which is understandable when you're in the midst of fighting apathy in your town, but possibly not applicable to the forum members here?

CP, not itching for a fight at all. I found a statement from someone who many here think his cheese slipped off his cracker a long time ago, and in many ways, that may be an accurate statement. But in this ONE STATEMENT, I thought it interesting that something he said would be something this whole forum, or atleast most of it, could get behind, being that most of us are VERY insterested in where our government (local, state, AND fed) is going, and being that atleast MOST of us are VERY concerned with the voter apathy that affects this whole country-- not just Bridgton, Maine. Imagine my surprise when I got a fight! And then yeah, my back went up. Especially with the fight I'm getting from JG. I don't understand that one at all.

campanula-- it sure seems that way, no matter where you stand politically speaking.

    Bookmark   January 6, 2013 at 7:47PM
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jerzeegirl(9)

Either way, what does Uncle Ted have to do AT ALL with voter suppression?

I see a big connection between the two....you can't complain about apathy and then support governments that suppress the vote.

One black panther standing at one polling place in Philadelphia holding the door for people does not constitute voter suppression no matter what Fox News says.

    Bookmark   January 6, 2013 at 7:52PM
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maifleur01

I would say Ben Franklin but believe it was said many centuries before.

    Bookmark   January 6, 2013 at 8:25PM
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labrea_gw

One would have to accept the idea that there was an ersatz curse or a curse at all!
Oh I usppose it's one of the old timey white whigged gouty folks but it sounds to be right out of Tea baggistan!

    Bookmark   January 6, 2013 at 9:21PM
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elvis

"I would say Ben Franklin but believe it was said many centuries before."

Well, that's interesting, considering that the quote concerns Americans, and we haven't been around for "many centuries".

?

    Bookmark   January 6, 2013 at 11:47PM
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Circus Peanut

Oh I usppose it's one of the old timey white whigged gouty folks but it sounds to be right out of Tea baggistan!

My new all-time favorite sentence on Hot Topics.

    Bookmark   January 6, 2013 at 11:57PM
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landscraper82(4a - ND)

I occasionally peruse Hot Topics, but have never posted before....typically I stick with Gardening topics, since this is Gardenweb......but whatever. Bill, I have fought your fight countless times. Liberals/Conservatives will continuously scream "BIAS!" while being the epitomy of biasm themselves.

People like JG will always be the problem, when they think they have the solution. American people are being used, and abused, by both parties....and people that can't see it are what's really bringing us down.

    Bookmark   January 7, 2013 at 12:15AM
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maddie_athome

Projection. It ain't pretty.

    Bookmark   January 7, 2013 at 1:15AM
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maddie_athome

Now, back to the subject.

BUT, Bill.

That's not the full quote.

    Bookmark   January 7, 2013 at 2:03AM
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lily316(z5PA)

The GOP tried like hell here in PA to suppress the vote. The freaking head of the Republican party said 'Voter ID done. Romney victory in PA done. So what do you have to say about that, Bill? Made me work my butt off for Obama,and the vote wasn't even close. In the end it was overturned, and we don't hear a word now from our beloved Governor who know his Teabagger ass is grass next year. Also don't hear about his vaginal ultrasounds either. If you don't like them, close your eyes.

BTW, Ted Nugent is a pile of human excrement. A more disgusting human being, I have never seen. Is that the best you can quote?

    Bookmark   January 7, 2013 at 3:26AM
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Campanula UK Z8

'Oh I usppose it's one of the old timey white whigged gouty folks but it sounds to be right out of Tea baggistan!'

Yeah, I am loving it too!

    Bookmark   January 7, 2013 at 4:36AM
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bill_vincent(Central Maine)

So what do you have to say about that, Bill?

After your last statement, I won't waste my "breath". Except to say my feelings are about the same for Obama. And Feinstein.

American people are being used, and abused, by both parties....and people that can't see it are what's really bringing us down.

Exactly right.

    Bookmark   January 7, 2013 at 8:52AM
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ohiomom

American people are being used, and abused, by both parties....and people that can't see it are what's really bringing us down.

Exactly right.

....so the way to change this is? Cause if you still vote but throw it away on someone who has not a snowballs chance in heck of not being elected, that is about as effective as working out with a box of donuts in one hand.

You want change? Please explain to me how you plan to accomplish this.

    Bookmark   January 7, 2013 at 9:03AM
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jerzeegirl(9)

People like JG will always be the problem, when they think they have the solution.

I'm the problem???? You want to start off your first post in HT by insulting someone?

    Bookmark   January 7, 2013 at 9:10AM
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landscraper82(4a - ND)

Hardly an insult.....

    Bookmark   January 7, 2013 at 9:25AM
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ohiomom

Okay since "people like JG" will always be the problem, I asked above and will continue to ask till this thread reaches max whatcha gonna do?

You want change? Please explain to me how you plan to accomplish this.

    Bookmark   January 7, 2013 at 9:38AM
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kimka(Zone 6B)

Leaving voter suppression aside, frankly if someone can't put the effort in to at least learning about the questions (choice of answers is what we are voting about), I would just as soon they not vote. Do we really need/benefit from knee jerk voting from campaign ads?

The protection of the minority from the majority mob was one of the founding fathers' greatest concerns. They understood the issue of stampeded mob rule as one of the flaws of democracy.

I've often thought that with democracy as a system, you are expecting that adding up a lot of zeros will come to an intelligent answer/solution. I'd really be in favor of a poll test that requires a potential voter to answer a couple of simple questions about current problems (randomized from 20 0r 30, so you can't just memorize). If you can't do that much learning, you don't get to help decide the answers.

Of course I'm being unrealistic here, but I could dream. So low turn out doesn't really bother me that much as long as the process is open to any citizen who wants to put the effort in.

    Bookmark   January 7, 2013 at 9:45AM
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jerzeegirl(9)

How do you define a majority mob?

    Bookmark   January 7, 2013 at 9:50AM
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vgkg(Z-7)

Equating a couple of isolated voter poll Black Panther incidents (which are quite dusty now) with GOP controlled states passing voter restriction laws seems a bit of a stretch Bill.

    Bookmark   January 7, 2013 at 10:08AM
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landscraper82(4a - ND)

I guess I don't know how to change it to be honest with you ohiomom.

My original point was that we as a nation need to evolve. We need to get away from this idea of complete blind hatred of the other side.

Sitting on the sidelines and screaming that one side is guilty of voter suppression, and refusing to see it on the other side, is....well, hm....trying to think of a word that won't get me kicked off.

And voter suppression is only one issue in a myriad of others.

    Bookmark   January 7, 2013 at 10:09AM
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kimka(Zone 6B)

When the majority of a group is stampeded by an emotional outcry to take action (usually against a small group or single person with regard to facts. The commonest version of this used to the lynch mob, often a sizeable majority of an area's residents who were convinced that a person was guilty of a serious crime and they lynched that person without regard to actual facts or evidence. Rule by mob, not law.

    Bookmark   January 7, 2013 at 10:09AM
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jerzeegirl(9)

What exactly is the "other side" of voter suppression? Is there an upside?

    Bookmark   January 7, 2013 at 10:15AM
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ohiomom

Yeah well don't look for any change anytime soon if ever, because whenever a "real" grassroots group takes it to the streets and says exactly what has been said here on HT and other places ... they are immediately targeted by the media/gubmint and portrayed to the sheep as a "threat to civil society" and the sheeple go baa baa baa you are right master, they are a bunch of dirty hippies and anarchist and I got pics to show you ... they need to get a job, take a bath baa baa baa baa baa

...and the beat goes on

    Bookmark   January 7, 2013 at 10:15AM
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landscraper82(4a - ND)

Now you are just being silly....there is only one side of voter suppression, but BOTH parties are guilty of it. And I don't like that fact that people can't, or refuse to see it the way it is. This country could be turned around in a few seconds with the right leadership....but the right leader will never be elected due to the mindset of most americans.

To automatically discount someone because they have an R or a D behind their name is foolish...but thats how the majority of americans vote.

    Bookmark   January 7, 2013 at 10:23AM
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marshallz10(z9-10 CA)

OM, this thread will turn into another BM before you getcha answer. Way to go, landscrabbler! And a belated BD greeting. Same BD as my deceased dad.

    Bookmark   January 7, 2013 at 10:34AM
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heri_cles

Since Romney was defeated, there have been several regular posters here as well as a few with new IDs, who have begun expressing their anger, disappointment, and anger with the results of the election in various ways. Some have even gone off the deep end, but I am not naming names.

I have even been surprised by some who formerly prided themselves on being voices of moderation. They have simply exposed themselves as being much more extreme and having much more internal anger than I ever suspected. I suppose it was always simmering under the surface but apparently the lure of the "sore loser syndrome" was just too much for them to avoid. And where is their anger directed? Always at Obama, then at Al Sharpton and now at the two person Black Panther/Milli Vanilli party.

Trust me, prodding certain posters here is not going to accomplish anything or satisfy any attempt at political revenge. Instead, what I suggest to those seething with anger over four more years of President Obama, is that they become more politically introspective and less provocative with their posts.

Perhaps they can begin that internal healing process by questioning their Right Wing information and the sources for that info. How is it that FOX told you that Romney had this election all wrapped up when in fact, he got trounced? They made a fool out of you, didn't they? What else have they misrepresented to you? Don't you wonder now, just a little bit, or do you still believe propaganda and bulsh1t like the Black Panther incident had the significance and impact that was attributed to it by Fox?

Ted Nugent's idea of self governance is not far from that of David Koresh and Warren Jeffs. Their views attract those who have a bunker mentality or a paranoia about government. It is popular among armed religious zealots and political extremists.
For me, that is a cause for concern. Didn't Nugent promise to leave the country or something if President Obama was re-elected? Please, get out and take your nasty guitar playing and assault weapons with you.

    Bookmark   January 7, 2013 at 10:42AM
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lily316(z5PA)

I'm still waiting for Nugent to leave the country, but he's still here spewing his garbage. This is a no brainer like Heri just said. You're equating voter fraud with two Black Panthers against many state organizations like here in PA deliberately skewed with new rules to suppress the vote like voter ID laws and stopping early voting days ? But you saw the results. The surprise win, which wasn't even close, for Obama. The American people are fed up with the Teabaggers and the radical right , and it ain't gonna change any time soon.

    Bookmark   January 7, 2013 at 11:57AM
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landscraper82(4a - ND)

Thanks for making my point. If you view one side as "radical," and in the same breath use demeaning terminology...then how are you any better? Nobody votes on facts anymore, only emotion, and it's screwed everything up.

    Bookmark   January 7, 2013 at 12:33PM
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marquest(z5 PA)

Both Tea Party and Black Panther are political movements. Why when you see TBaggers with a riffle strapped to their body at political rallies and voting areas there is no fear of voters suppression. but... Black Panther without a gun standing at the polls and opening a door for voters to enter suddenly it is voters suppression? Why do you think that is your reaction?

TEA PARTY..............
The Tea Party movement is an American political movement that advocates strict adherence to the United States Constitution, reducing U.S. government spending and taxes, and reduction of the U.S. national debt and federal budget deficit. The movement is generally considered to be partly conservative, partly libertarian, and partly populist. The movement has sponsored protests and supported political candidates since 2009.

The theme of the Boston Tea Party, an iconic event in American history, has long been used by anti-tax protesters. It was part of Tax Day protests held throughout the 1990s and earlier. By 2001, a custom had developed among some conservative activists of mailing tea bags to legislators and other officials as an act of symbolism.

BLACK PANTHER.......
The Black Panther Party was a progressive political organization that stood in the vanguard of the most powerful movement for social change in America since the Revolution of 1776 and the Civil War: that dynamic episode generally referred to as The Sixties.

    Bookmark   January 7, 2013 at 12:36PM
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dublinbay z6 (KS)

Here it is, in one solid nugget:
Ted Nugent's idea of self governance is not far from that of David Koresh and Warren Jeffs. Their views attract those who have a bunker mentality or a paranoia about government. It is popular among armed religious zealots and political extremists.

Thanks, heri.

And there is a big difference between a private group which is 50 years past its prime (the 1960s) and consists of only a couple Black Panthers holding the door for voters to pass through versus our elected Republican State officials passing laws in several states just this past year to squelch, throughout the entire state, the minority voters that the Republicans know are likely to vote AGAINST the Republicans--and then the elected State officials bragging before the public that with those laws they pushed through, they have successfully reduced the Democratic vote and ensured a Republican win!

Some of you cannot see the difference? Time for your annual eye test! Or maybe IQ test.

In the meantime, I've been having quite a chortle at how seriously the Republican State officials mis-calculated the voting public! Hee, hee!

Kate

    Bookmark   January 7, 2013 at 1:38PM
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lily316(z5PA)

My favorite moment of the whole year was Rove sputtering on live TV that the votes were still coming in from Ohio. They are...I paid for them, I was assured they would be our votes ...sputter sputter sputter.

I didn't come here immediately after then election to gloat. I wasn't going to do it, because I seriously would have been beyond depressed if R&R won, so I had empathy. BUT...with all the newbies and all the crap being tossed, now I'm starting to love it . You guy were bamboozled weren't you? You seriously thought Americans bought the rich robot you set up? And the other clowns who were in the primaries? Turns out there are more of us than you, it seems.

    Bookmark   January 7, 2013 at 1:53PM
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jerzeegirl(9)

lily, I suppose that what kimka meant by majority mob - it's us!

    Bookmark   January 7, 2013 at 2:43PM
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chase_gw

I think you have kimka wrong......I think the reference is to those in the majority who would trample on minorities if given their way.

    Bookmark   January 7, 2013 at 2:53PM
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jerzeegirl(9)

Chase, kimka proposed a poll test in exchange for being allowed to vote. Where does that figure in a democratic system?

    Bookmark   January 7, 2013 at 4:25PM
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chase_gw

K, going back and reading...I missed that entirely.

    Bookmark   January 7, 2013 at 4:28PM
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labrea_gw

Hey the New Black Panther Party is just another extremist HATE GROUP!

    Bookmark   January 7, 2013 at 4:38PM
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mylab123(z5NW)

I also hate the gloat thing, it is everyone' s country after all.
However, the longer the the spewing response to the democratic continues ( ignorant threats to take " their" states "away") or the insistence that the voter suppression attempts by GOP officials in many states in this election is equal in bad behavior as was the two big, weaponless black men who stood in front of a voter station in the FIRST election and thus scared some white folks by their mere existence ( first of all, is that still all you got? ) --- is beyond pathetic.

I wonder how many votes the voter suppression alone cost you. Dont you realize that Americans tend to get irritable if politicians try to stop them from voting?

This kind of hysterical blindness makes it all the more probable that in the voting booth, the republican voters ( who cost you the election) were again reminded of the fact that their reps, supported by the voters, were so ineffective and because were so blinded by unfounded hate, that enough of conservatives voted, yet *again*, for a democrat rather than to see the party as it exists today, win the Presidency.

IOW, they weren't picking up what too many of you folks were putting down. Still aren't.

You, the conservative voter - and your party squandered four entire years by digging ever deeper and clutching ever tighter onto the message of division rather than a new and inclusive plan for the advancement for ALL the people in this country.

And what is the reaction after yet another loss to gain the votes?

To dig even deeper, clutch even harder, howl ever louder in your impotent frustration.

Time's awasting....again! Which is very, very good news to life long, devoted democrats. Something I am not.

Adapt. Or be left behind.

Good post, Heri.

    Bookmark   January 7, 2013 at 5:04PM
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bill_vincent(Central Maine)

Yeah well don't look for any change anytime soon if ever, because whenever a "real" grassroots group takes it to the streets and says exactly what has been said here on HT and other places ... they are immediately targeted by the media/gubmint and portrayed to the sheep as a "threat to civil society" and the sheeple go baa baa baa you are right master, they are a bunch of dirty hippies and anarchist and I got pics to show you ... they need to get a job, take a bath baa baa baa baa baa

I was with you till the jobs part. Most tea partiers HAVE jobs.

Okay since "people like JG" will always be the problem, I asked above and will continue to ask till this thread reaches max whatcha gonna do?
You want change? Please explain to me how you plan to accomplish this.

Good question. if two sides of any dispute BOTH don't want to work to find compromise, then it won't work. Case in point, this thread. I posted this in the first place, because I thought it was something everyone could agree on. Granted, I found it amusing that it came from someone who at best is controversial, but nonetheless. But rather than agree, all then "JG's" of the forum have done whatever they possibly can to find every negative connotation and insinuation they could come up with.

As MrsK said up above-- I might as well give it up. I could say the sky is blue, and someone is going to lambaste me for even CONSIDERING the thought. So you're right-- nothing will be done. When in Rome.... so I'll do like everyone else in here, and be just as absolutely abrasive and disagreeable to "the OTHER people" as I can be.

"United we stand...." is a cliche for a reason.

    Bookmark   January 7, 2013 at 9:39PM
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jerzeegirl(9)

So, bill, you are saying that I should have just agreed with you and everything would have been hunky dory. Because,let's face it, you are not REALLY arguing about finding compromise - what you are saying is that there is something wrong with ME because I don't agree with YOU.

This is a debate forum - why would you even want me to agree with you? Why wouldn't I find negative connotations since I don't agree with the statement? Or perhaps you didn't think that my responses were up to par? What were you expecting exactly?

    Bookmark   January 7, 2013 at 9:51PM
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chase_gw

Heck, I actually was supportive of the premise in Bills OP and he still slammed me....I've decided there is no point .

    Bookmark   January 7, 2013 at 10:05PM
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bill_vincent(Central Maine)

No, I'm saying there's something wrong with you because you'll look for only the bad in anything a conservative says, and only good from anything a liberal says.

Like I said-- when in Rome. Atleast while in here, I'll no longer even try. You want abrasive and argumentative? You've got it.

    Bookmark   January 7, 2013 at 10:07PM
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chase_gw

You talking to me? Cause if you are you are dead wrong. I argue issues that I belive in and oppose those I feel are wrong....and sometimes I'm just plain not sure.

I do not find fault with opinions simply because they are expressed by one political group or another....just ask Heri what he thinks of my opinions!

    Bookmark   January 7, 2013 at 10:19PM
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bill_vincent(Central Maine)

Chase, you and I have butted heads, but because of issues, not ideologies. That's the difference. JG will argue with me just because I'm conservative, whether or not she would otherwise agree with what I'm saying. She WILL find SOME direction to come at me from, just because. That's okay, though. So long as I know the rules of the game, I can play.

    Bookmark   January 7, 2013 at 10:24PM
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jerzeegirl(9)

No, I'm saying there's something wrong with you because you'll look for only the bad in anything a conservative says, and only good from anything a liberal says.

That is not true and you know it. It's because I don't AGREE with most conservative positions and that's because, newsflash, I am not a conservative. And sometimes I don't agree with what liberals say...is it really such a big deal?

    Bookmark   January 7, 2013 at 10:28PM
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bill_vincent(Central Maine)

it is when you even disagree with all statements I make that have nothing to do with being either. Don't worry, JG. I won't lose any sleep over it. You can be guaranteed you won't agree with another word from me.

Or vice versa.

    Bookmark   January 7, 2013 at 10:33PM
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jerzeegirl(9)

I have two words for you - Roll Tide. Woo hoo!

    Bookmark   January 7, 2013 at 10:36PM
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bill_vincent(Central Maine)

Figures

Here is a link that might be useful: My alma mater

    Bookmark   January 7, 2013 at 10:41PM
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jerzeegirl(9)

Too funny.

    Bookmark   January 7, 2013 at 10:43PM
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ohiomom

That's the difference. JG will argue with me just because I'm conservative, whether or not she would otherwise agree with what I'm saying.

...funny because I had the same thought recently on another thread, it was a subject that I thought would pretty much have "most" of the forum members in agreement on until ONE conservative argued the point and the rest jumped in that person's boat.

Look at another recent thread where there was no animosity until the OP came back and accused posters of name calling, which is odd since there was NO name calling.

Compromise does not mean your way or the highway....

    Bookmark   January 8, 2013 at 7:31AM
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bill_vincent(Central Maine)

Never thought it did. Many times I've either kept silent or curtailed my remarks in the spirit of compromise. Also, I'm not saying this is exclusive to one "side" or the other. Just that it sucks, no matter which individual it comes from. But like I said above, I can play any game, so long as I know the rules.

    Bookmark   January 8, 2013 at 8:00AM
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jerzeegirl(9)

It's not a game, bill. We are just discussing a hot topic. You are the one taking it personally and turning it into something it isn't.

    Bookmark   January 8, 2013 at 9:22AM
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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

The real curse in America is apathetic, disconnected, uncaring, unconscionable Americans who dare not engage in this unique, sacred experiment in self-government.

The statement could also be turned around and be equally valid: The real curse in the U.S. is that government fails to capture the imagination and passions of large segments of the society; they can see no improvement even if they were to engage in the process.

The media and law enforcement reaction to OWS, and the Citizens United decision reinforce the above.

    Bookmark   January 8, 2013 at 9:41AM
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ohiomom

Nancy said it so much better than I could .. thank you.

    Bookmark   January 8, 2013 at 9:47AM
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kimka(Zone 6B)

jerzeegirl,

I started off by saying that in my heart I don't really believe in complete democracy as a system because I don't think that people who are willfully ignorant of the questions (not the choice of answers) should have the right to vote. I think that you should have to invest in learning about the facts of the problems you are facing (the choice of solutions is what we are voting on). I didn't offer any other limitations on the right to vote, including age, sex, income, or race.

Back in the last years of the draft, the age of voting was changed on the basis of if I'm old enough to die for my country, why am I not old enough to vote in my country. Made sense for those drafted, but what about everyone else?

Now why is 18 the magic number? I should think in a real democracy that as soon as you are old enough to answer questions about the issues, you should have a say in the choice of solutions or representative.

What's your rationale for the choice of 18 for the vote?

What's wrong with that?

    Bookmark   January 8, 2013 at 9:51AM
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marshallz10(z9-10 CA)

I am old enough to remember the long and contentious debates about voting age and issues around who should have the right to vote and even about their ability and access to register to vote. We've come a long way from the time when voters had to be white men of property and to serve on juries had to be white men of property.

Expecting a broadly educated and informed electorate is a fine goal, but in this age of political propaganda with media controlled by relatively few corporations, public opinions and voting patterns are strongly swayed. Truth and reason need not apply to one's voting decisions.

Arguments about apt lower voting age are a waste of time.

    Bookmark   January 8, 2013 at 10:23AM
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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Now why is 18 the magic number?

Why is 18 the magic number to be prosecuted as an adult for crimes committed?

    Bookmark   January 8, 2013 at 10:26AM
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youngquinn_gw

Nancy it is not. many juveniles are tried and sentenced as adults in America. My link says it has now been declared unconstitutional but many still are imprisioned this way.

"I'd really be in favor of a poll test that requires a potential voter to answer a couple of simple questions about current problems (randomized from 20 0r 30, so you can't just memorize). If you can't do that much learning, you don't get to help decide the answers."

This raises an interesting question. is voting a
1)right
2)privilege
or
3)responsibity

we tend to view it as a responsibity in Australia , where it is compulsory

I dont think voting should be viewed as something only people of a certain IQ getto do...because , after all , all citizens have to suffer the consequences of bad Government.
18 is the age for Australians to vote and to legally drink alcohol

Here is a link that might be useful: juveniles tried as adults

    Bookmark   January 8, 2013 at 10:53AM
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david52 Zone 6

When I began reading the thread, I thought that Bill was speaking more about the issues of local gvt, where in a small town / community, so few people participate in gvt and actually bother to vote in local elections.

Around here, about half the residents are "old timers" whose families date several generations, and the other half are new comers. In town, the proportion of 'new comers' to 'old timers' is balanced enough that both groups are represented on the assorted boards and councils and what not.

But out in the county, and for county-wide office, its a whole other matter. New comers don't stand a chance. Everybody running for everything from county commissioner to seats on the electric coop / water coop / irrigation coop / cemetery district etc. always start off by stating how long they and their family has lived in the county. Occasionally some civic-minded new comer will try, but since they *might* (start a rumor) be secret environmentalists or closet gun-stealin' libruls, they are always soundly defeated. Always.

At the beginning, this bothered me, but after a while, I've come to appreciate it. There is a whole history of human relations that go back generations that a new comer isn't going to have a clue about, but thats what still dictates how things work. There are family feuds, relations, and reliances that go back generations. If your great grand dad bought out my great grand dad for taxes during the Depression, there is nothing you or yours will ever get my support on.

    Bookmark   January 8, 2013 at 11:02AM
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woodnymph2_gw

Just taking Bill's quote literally, without any context and not knowing its source, I had no problem with it, thinking it possibly was a throwback to the vision of the founding fathers. I certainly agree about the apathy of many Americans being a curse. I have mentioned this many times on this forum, stating that far too many Americans view politics and government as fodder for their entertainment, enhanced by distortions of our media, of course. I think we're becoming more like ancient Rome, longing to be entertained by circuses, waiting our handout/bribe of bread....

    Bookmark   January 8, 2013 at 11:08AM
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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

I thought that Bill was speaking more about the issues of local gvt, where in a small town / community, so few people participate in gvt and actually bother to vote in local elections.

Many of us do not live in small towns. My county is the most populous in the U.S. and is as political as it gets even though the offices are all supposed to be non-partisan. If you're connected to a big developer, or some corporation that does business with the county, you'll have no problems as a candidate. On the other side are the unions, progressive organizations, and community organizers and organizations.

Locally some of the launching pads for politicians are the L.A. Community College Board -- Jerry Brown started there -- or the L.A. City Board of Education (although in recent years school board elections have become increasingly political as mayors want to impose their policies on the schools). City council elections are hard-fought battles, and the race to replace Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa began about two years ago.

    Bookmark   January 8, 2013 at 1:00PM
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bill_vincent(Central Maine)

The statement could also be turned around and be equally valid: The real curse in the U.S. is that government fails to capture the imagination and passions of large segments of the society; they can see no improvement even if they were to engage in the process.

Careful, nancy-- another statement I agree completely with.

    Bookmark   January 9, 2013 at 12:18AM
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Lady_Brat

jz"""""""""""""Then why does the GOP try to suppress the vote whenever they see a chance?"
jz"""""""""""""This is a debate forum "

Then why does a subject that could be debated sensibly have to be turned into a slap against the GOP? If it is a debate forum, debate.

chase""""""" I do believe that apathy and inaction are a real issue in both our countries."
Chase I have to agree but I will take it one step further and say the the apathy and inaction is substantially present not only regarding government but in all aspects of society. I feel that our society is diseased and until it heals itself we are headed down hill.

I believe it's maddie who calls conservatives "regressives". I am proud of the progress my country has made in many areas but I admit I would love to see some things "regress".......back to the time when it was taught that unwed children having children, that they are unable to support financial or emotionally , was wrong instead of being accepted as normal which in my opinion encourages ..... back to the time when kids were taught morals, values and the importance of character........back to the time when kids were taught respect for all life and for other's possessions..........back to the time when kids were taught that there are consequences to their actions; that they are responsible for their actions and choices and will be penalized for same if needed. Too many kids today are never taught morals, values, or respect. Too many parents can't be bothered to parent. Many parents offer no consequences for the smaller things perpetrated by their "little darlins" and don't want anyone else to correct them so little things escalate into bigger things. A young society which hasn't been taught any better knows no better when it is grown. It appears to me that many parents out there are passing the indifference to government, as well as to the decorum needed for a healthy society on to their offspring and they to theirs and on and on. I feel that instilling respect and responsibility and the rules of society and government to our children and teaching them that there are repercussions and consequences (and enforcing those consequences) to their actions is more important than using something like this last shooting as a political agenda to get rid of guns. The problem runs sooooo much deeper than the guns. If children are taught the importance of morals, values, character, taking part in your government, etc, regardless to which party they belong, society and our government will benefit and improve.

Please excuse any spelling, punctuation or grammar errors. I am suffering from sleep deprivation and my mind isn't too sharp right now. My Dad has been in the hospital since Nov. 18 and someone needed to be with him 24/7 as his mind was not clear; he pulled two PICC lines and I think three IV's (before the PICC) out and was constantly trying to pull out his catheter and take off his oxygen as well as getting angry and fighting the nurses. All this with someone constantly monitoring him. I took a few weeks off work to stay with him nights and my Mom stayed during the day; other siblings take part of the weekends as they all live 70 miles or more away. My parents live about 70 miles also but my Mom has been going to my house at night to rest. Dad is in rehab now and doing some better but still has a long way to go. On top of that, my Mom tripped over an oxygen tube Tuesday and fell at the rehab center. Thank God she seems to be OK except for some horrible bruising. She is getting x-rays done today. My parents will be 86 this year and we are blessed to still have them but no matter how long you have them it is never easy to face giving them up. I'm back at work and for the first time in a long time have had a chance to look at the Forum. Sorry to bend you ears with this info and I'm sure there are a few on here who couldn't care less but just wanted you to know that I am still around..........even with the dull mind. :^) A belated Happy New Year to everyone.

    Bookmark   January 10, 2013 at 12:24PM
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bill_vincent(Central Maine)

LB-- My sincerest wishes for a full recovery for your Dad.

AND YOU!!

    Bookmark   January 10, 2013 at 5:34PM
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bill_vincent(Central Maine)

I had this graphic cross my FB page today, and thought it very appropriate:

I wish more people realised this.

    Bookmark   January 10, 2013 at 10:01PM
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elvis

I agree with Pericles.

Here's another thoughtful one:

"Freedom is the sure possession of those alone who have the courage to defend it."
Pericles

    Bookmark   January 10, 2013 at 11:23PM
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jon_in_wessex(z8/9 UK)

My favourite Facebook one today was:

"Just because you have a dick, doesn't mean you can act like one."

Julius Caesar

    Bookmark   January 11, 2013 at 3:37AM
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Lady_Brat

Thanks Bill. I just returned to work this week and had to leave early yesterday. My Mom had gone to have her hip and hand x-rayed from the fall she had.......the first time someone in the family hasn't been with my Dad 24/7 since he fell on 11/18/12. Rehab called saying Dad had complained of chest pains during his therapy so they did an EKG which they said showed a light MI. Rehab called 911 and had Dad transferred to the hospital........the third since he fell. They did blood work at the hospital and said it was clear, no signs of a heart attack, thank God. They admitted him to the hospital and will probably keep him again tonight. Hopefully they will send him back to Rehab tomorrow.

    Bookmark   January 11, 2013 at 10:40AM
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demifloyd(8)

Lady Brat, I am so sorry your folks are having these health issues--I hope they can get better soon and you can get some semblance of routine back into your life.

I'm not far behind you considering the issues my mother has had these last few months and is having now.

I hope all of us that have taken better care of ourselves than our parents did, reap some benefits from our efforts of exercising, eating right, and staying active.

    Bookmark   January 11, 2013 at 12:23PM
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Lady_Brat

Thanks Demi. Will include your mother in my prayers. It's really hard to watch your parent's health fail. Like I said though I have been blessed to have them in basically good health until the last year or so.

    Bookmark   January 11, 2013 at 12:33PM
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fouquieria(10b)

I was 21 when I first voted. That was the legal voting age at the time. I still think that should be the legal minimum age to vote...as well as to serve in the armed forces. Sending an 18-year old to somewhere like Afghanistan or Iraq or Vietnam is criminal to my mind.

-Ron-

    Bookmark   January 11, 2013 at 12:34PM
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elvis

Yup. Voting, serving, drinking, and in the states that allow it, drugging. Also policework. At least 21.

    Bookmark   January 12, 2013 at 10:52PM
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