determining Tokudama heritage

bkay2000(8a TX)April 25, 2013

I have anthracnose on my property to the degree that I can't spray enough to eradicate it. Apparently it's in the trees. According to the Ohio University thing on another thread, Tokudama is particularly susceptible to it. The only one of my hosta that really suffers with it is Blue Angel, (others have slight problems) which doesn't show up as having Tokudama heritage ('Aden 365' x 'Aden 361').

I would like to avoid anymore that are particularly susceptible to it. Does anyone have any ideas on how to do that?

bk

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don_in_colorado

BKay, try this..On the link I attached, do this:

SELECT FIELD TO SEARCH: Set to 'Description'
CONDITION: Set to 'Contains' and finally..

INSERT YOUR SEARCH STRING: Type in Tokudama

Hope this can help you to some degree.

Regards,
Don B.

Here is a link that might be useful: 'Hugo Data' link on Hosta Library Home Page

    Bookmark   April 25, 2013 at 4:53PM
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thisismelissa(z4a-S Twin Cities MN)

if you go to myhosta.com and do a search on tokudama, it will give you everything that has the name of tokudama in its immediate parent. From there, you'd have to click on each of the 108 listings to see what that hosta parented or sported into.

    Bookmark   April 25, 2013 at 5:49PM
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ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5

every blue hosta???

you might want to check schmids latest update of whether the species tokudama and sieboldiana.. are actually related ....

never heard of trees affecting hosta .... ???? ..

ken

    Bookmark   April 25, 2013 at 6:19PM
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donrawson(Z 5)

Perhaps you're referring to the AHS webpage on hosta diseases? AHS Hosta Diseases

In our northern gardens, anthracnose is not such a problem like it is in the South. I would keep the hostas well-watered and cool, and cut off the diseased leaves and dispose of them. (Don't compost them.)

There are a huge number of cultivars that have 'Sieboldiana' and 'Tokudama' in their lineage. You're probably best off just observing which hostas in your own garden seem to be the most susceptible and replacing those varieties with others which are more resistant.

    Bookmark   April 25, 2013 at 7:44PM
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Steve Massachusetts Zone 5b

Tokudama and Sieboldiana are both cultivars not species and are probably related. Despite what is on the database, Paul Aden did not breed Blue Angel (he probably didn't breed any Hostas ever). He stole it from the garden of Florence Shaw. It is likely from its leaf shape and clump size, that Blue Angel has both H. Sieboldiana and H. montana in its background. Unfortunately we don't have any of Florence Shaw's records to confirm this.

Steve

    Bookmark   April 25, 2013 at 7:45PM
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bkay2000(8a TX)

Ken, I'm not sure that it does. It seems as if they are different strains of anthracnose. My pecan tree has pecan anthracnose, and my Carolina Jessamine has it, and it appears that my Confederate Jasmine has it. It seems that there must be some relationship, if it's only that the environment is a good place for it to grow.

I called the extention service and the only thing they suggest is spraying weekly with fungicide. I'm not going to do that. I'm too lazy for one thing. I don't like spraying, for another.

I totally replaced the soil in the Blue Angel and it didn't help. It's worse than last year. I hate to do it as it's already nice and large, but I'm considering throwing it away.

Thanks for all the help.

bk

    Bookmark   April 25, 2013 at 8:33PM
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Steve Massachusetts Zone 5b

Bkay,

You could try spraying the Blue Angel with a Bordeaux Mixuture. It's considered to be an organic fungicide. Check out the link below.

Steve

Here is a link that might be useful: Purdue Extension - Using Organic Fungicides

    Bookmark   April 25, 2013 at 9:19PM
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tsugajunkie z5 SE WI

Fungicides are a preventative and will not help much after the fact. Best to use them before symptoms show up. Depending on how bad it is, remove infected leaves and treat what remains.

tj

    Bookmark   April 25, 2013 at 10:06PM
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Babka NorCal 9b

I know what you mean about spraying, but my objection is that it leaves the leaves with a residue. I grow hostas for their LEAVES, not flowers, and when you coat them with spots and dots of hard water or fungicide or remove the glaucous bloom with an oil spray they lose their allure. I understand your frustration. I sometimes oil spray for mites late in the season, when they are going downhill anyway.

All these hybrids have been so interbred, I have no idea how many had whatever in their heritage. Grow what you like to look at, and if it doesn't do well, stay away from its immediate relatives. Those genetics can get so thinned out over many, many crosses and sports, that you shouldn't limit yourself by selecting any hostas that have toks remotely in their past.

Hostas are to ENJOY, not to fret over. And there are so many glorious ones for pots.

-Babka

    Bookmark   April 25, 2013 at 11:26PM
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ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5

what they said..

but do note ..... its coming from above.. the trees...

so changing the soil is probably ineffective ....

ken

ps: how about a pic... are we relying on your diagnosis of such?????.. there might be other causes of what you are seeing.. which i presume is little rusty spots???? .. e.g. minor frost damage .... a very good question ... of which i dont know the answer.. is whether you should be seeing Anthracnose.. this early in spring... just off hand.. i thought it was a high heat of the summer problem ....

    Bookmark   April 26, 2013 at 7:39AM
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bkay2000(8a TX)

This is the Blue Angel today. All the damage is not anthracnose, as it's been frozen/frosted and dropped on it's little pips while removing all the soil. The anthracnose is the brown spots with the lighter center.

This is Guacamole

This is the Carolina Jessamine

I got the anthracnose diagnosis from A&M last summer. I did not know that pecan anthracnose existed when I sent the sample to A&M, so did not mention it was under a pecan tree. When the leaves started to fall, I noticed the spots on the leaves and learned about pecan anthracnose.
I just figured out that it was a problem on the Carolina Jessamine this spring.

bk

    Bookmark   April 26, 2013 at 11:57AM
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Steve Massachusetts Zone 5b

Do you own a chain saw?

Steve

    Bookmark   April 26, 2013 at 2:51PM
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Steve Massachusetts Zone 5b

Failing a chain saw, try this:

"Control.�"Since the anthracnose fungus reaches greatest development and produces spores more frequently and more abundantly on fallen and diseased leaves and fruits, it is essential as a preventive measure that all dead and infected leaves, hulls, and nuts be removed and destroyed. This should be followed in the winter with a dormant spray, using a strong bordeaux-mixture solution. Another spray should be given soon after the buds open, and if necessary, two or three sprays be given in the earlier part of the growing season. The disease should be checked before the rainy season begins."

Steve

Here is a link that might be useful: University of FLA experimental station

    Bookmark   April 26, 2013 at 3:30PM
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ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5

didnt you have a hard frost just after they poked out???

i call that frost damage...

and its hard to remember.. a few weeks back ... when the insult happened.. because a light frost need not even show the morning it happens ...

to me.. its way to suspicious.. the pattern of the damage... why would you imagine.. that its the trees.. and somehow they magically have affected ONLY the tips .. of only one plant ....

its more likely its only tips..due to frost ..

now.. once the damage is done.. and the tissue already decaying.. yes.. other things can invade ...

i really think you have frost damage.. and yes.. it can select and affect ONE hosta ....

any recollections of the ambient weather for the last month ????

ken

ps: the guacamole.. trace down.. reach in.. and rip the ONE BAD LEAF OUT.. and be done with it ... perhaps some dew drops froze on that one leaf ....

    Bookmark   April 26, 2013 at 3:45PM
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bkay2000(8a TX)

Yes, Steve. I own a chain saw. But my neighbor has a pecan tree, too and I can't cut hers down. I would also lose all my backyard shade, and 110 F without shade is brutal. I'm sure all my hosta would be unhappy.

Ken, you might be right, except for a couple of things. One is that BA has looked like that since I first got it and it can't be frost damage every year. (photo history below) The other thing is that A&M has a plant diagnostic lab. That's what they do. They have machines, chemicals, etc. to determine what the plant problem might be. On the other hand, I respect your knowledge and opinions. Do you still think the same thing after viewing the photo history?

I don't know if it's possible, but maybe I infected the pips when I washed all the soil off. The guy who was helping dropped it right on the pips, which crushed several of them. It might have created the perfect environment to infect the plant. It's really early for anthracnose to show up, especailly when it's been so cool.

bk

In spring 2010, when I first got it:

August 2010

May 2011

July 2011

3/28/2012

June 2012, when I sent it to A&M

Now

    Bookmark   April 27, 2013 at 2:32PM
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ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5

A&M has a plant diagnostic lab. That's what they do. They have machines, chemicals, etc. to determine what the plant problem might be. On the other hand, I respect your knowledge and opinions. Do you still think the same thing after viewing the photo history?

==>> just pretend.. we are having tea [or scotch].. sitting on your deck.. BS'ing the day away .. its just a conversation .... so take it for what it is worth ...

but i want to make sure.. that you understand.. that an INTACT leaf.. does not have many problems .... on the exterior [we are not talking about the inside stuff here .. like virus etc] ...

the leaf usually has to be damaged.. for a topical insult to occur ...

as an analogy ... you finger is not going to gratuitously become infected ... unless you break the surface.. and give yourself a cut ... then the cut can become infected ...

so in this case.. i am suggesting.. that PERHAPS.. [heck i dont know] ... that IF it does have the anthracnose ... PERHAPS it is because the frost broke the intact surface.. allowing the secondary infection .. [note all the qualifications there]

and since you are rather new to all this... perhaps one year.. you didnt have proper media.. and you had watering issues.. causing leaf damage... or maybe the pot got too hot on brick.. and water management ... etc.. etc ...

but the thought that hosta are so foo foo.. that things drifting in the air.. can attack them.. just SEEMS counter to my experience ... [otherwise they wouldnt grow on the driveway .. lol.. in MI anyway]

i am not saying its NOT anthracnose.. your lab tells you it is.. i am just trying to make you ask yourself.. WHY it would bother an otherwise healthy hosta ...

there have been many a peep .... here on GW.. that take my knowledge.. and surpass it on any given topic ... and this might be your spot to do so ..... GO FOR IT ... and you can become the expert on that .. i wont mind ....

but i will be here.. playing devils advocate.. making sure you dont make presumptions .... again.. i think something else happened.. to give the anthracnose a toe hold.. and maybe i am wrong ... so be it ....

now you have a great day ..

ken

    Bookmark   April 28, 2013 at 8:53AM
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bkay2000(8a TX)

Thanks, Ken. I get it.

bk

    Bookmark   April 28, 2013 at 5:45PM
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Babka NorCal 9b

No anthracnose around here, but hostas that stay too wet in a pot get those sorts of edges. (not the spots in the middle of the leaves) My Guacamole was growing so fast I watered it a lot and some of the tips and edges are getting those white-ish areas. Even when the top inch of a pot is dry, dry, dry, that inch at the bottom can be very wet. Can you lift one of those that shows symptoms and see if the bottom it wet?

-Babka

    Bookmark   April 28, 2013 at 11:06PM
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bkay2000(8a TX)

Actually, that's the exact problem I had on some of the pots. The pot was staying too wet at the bottom. I made a medium of 1 part peat, 1 part perlite and 3 parts mulch. Apparently, the mulch was too fine. The recipe called for pine bark fines. No one here has it, so I used landscapers mix on the advice of a nurseryman. The top was drying out, so I was watering again.

When I figured it out, I dumped most of the pots out and added some pine bark mulch to the medium, but am stil not sure what's the best solution. I think I've given up on making my own medium. I am considering going back to Miracle Grow regular potting mix. I only had problems with the moisture control formula.

However, all that said, it hasn't been the problem for three years of ugly spots.

bk

    Bookmark   April 29, 2013 at 7:23PM
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Babka NorCal 9b

It is OK for the top couple inches to dry out with pots. I like nursery pots that have those bottom side holes so I can stick my finger in there to see just how moist it is. Side holes also allow you to see when the root begin going round and round. Do you have a cheap plant that you can play with? Pot it, then watch it daily to notice when it begins to wilt or feels floppy when you hold a leaf. Poke a finger in the bottom or slide it out to peek at how far down the medium is darker. Once peat dries out you cannot wet it very easily, bark holds quite a bit of moisture once it is wet. YYMV.

Once we were out of town unexpectedly for a week when the temps reached the high 90's. When we got home I flooded the pots and the next morning they were standing tall again.

-Babka

    Bookmark   April 29, 2013 at 9:42PM
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