Kwanso can it be further hybridized

grumpygardenguy(7 northern AL)June 11, 2004

I found i have a Kwanso, still not sure why they call it a double when it has triple petal sets, but anyway. Can i take pollen from a yellow day lily and put it into the kwanso and have it do anything or are the plants totally sterile no way to make pollen or seed pods, has the fat lady done sung on the hybridizing of this variety or can you continue it.

Want to see if i can get it a lighter shade to make it more striking then it already is. it's just that it seems as i looked at photos over the web, that most all are this shade or darker, so thought lighter is way to go, if i can take it anywhere that is.

Also if i can do anything with it, is there anything special i need to know or can i just pick a head off a yellow and throughly rubadub it in the kwanso and expect anything to happen.

Here it is

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Tim_Sullivan(z4NY)

I don't think you have Kwanzo. I think-know it is Flore Pleno.
Kwanzo is wild and Flore pleno is more orderly, tube in tube.
As for breeding, both are believed to be triploid and borderline sterile, but I have both Kwanzo and Flore Pleno and I'm continuing to try crosses, especially with Ed Murray, the strangest daylily I've come across. It's supposedly triploid, like the species, but it has been crossed with both diploids and tetraploids.
Tim

    Bookmark   June 14, 2004 at 8:42PM
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grumpygardenguy(7 northern AL)

hmm ok the other mentioned when this was ID'd as Kwanso, was it's like a Pleno, so it's one or other anyway.

I took a yellow and tried it on the 3 blooms that were up yesterday. today one has a nut thing growing at the end were the little hard doodad is, that i put the pollen on, that's darn fast pod production, if thats what it is, the other 2 dropped off. IS a standard yellow the best thing to try. i had a white last year, but this year no blooms only yellow and standard orange with darker orangish red tounge in center of petals. I doubt the orange would make much of a change in the pleno. I'd like to come up with a much different look. White still may come up, just hasn't as yet, i have a few more plants, just now sending up the bloom stalks. I'm afraid i'm going to have to move around 18 plants they are in to much shade and just wont bloom.

    Bookmark   June 14, 2004 at 9:24PM
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Tim_Sullivan(z4NY)

I think you are taking a much too casual approach to all this, which, put another way means you are wasting your time.
You don't seem to care about the Id on the species you are dealing with and you're slapping on pollen with no idea what ploidy (dip or tet) you're dealing with.
Have your fun, but don't expect much unless you do some background things before.
Tim

    Bookmark   June 22, 2004 at 8:40PM
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grumpygardenguy(7 northern AL)

Well Excuse MEeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

i'm now casualgardenguy, thought i was the grumpy one, but you may have me beat.

    Bookmark   June 22, 2004 at 11:43PM
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membertom(zone 6)

grumpygardenguy,
I just reread your original post and looked at the picture (very nice by the way). So there are three layers?? That's pretty cool. I've never grown 'Kwanso' or the other double common orange type - I can't remember the name. To warn you, those two doubles and the common orange Hemerocallis fulva 'Europa' are typically very sterile triploids. However, I think Stout (a daylily founding father) used 'Europa' to produce quite a few of the early daylily varieties. He just had to pollinate thousands of flowers to get a few seeds. In other words, you might need to be very persistant or work on a large scale.

By the way, the diploid/tetraploid matter which Tim referred to, in case your not familiar with it...

there are daylilies with 22 chromosomes (called diploids) and daylilies with 44 chromosomes (called tetraploids)....there are a few with 33 chromosomes (triploids) which are not very fertile.
In general, diploids should be crossed with other diploids, and tetraploids with tetraploids. If you mismatch, you will not get very many (if any) seeds. If you are trying to get seeds from Kwanso I think you could just as easily use either diploid or tetraploid. Stout used diploids, although I think I remember reading somewhere that tetraploids might be more compatible.

Back to your original question about why it's called a double...here's what the AHS says...

SINGLE
Most daylilies have six segments (three petals and three sepals) and are known as a single flower.

DOUBLE
These are daylilies with more than six segments. Doubles come in many different forms. The extra segments may appear as a tuft in the middle of the flower. These are called peony type doubles. They may appear in layers giving a hose-in-hose effect. The number of extra segments may vary from one or two to between six and eighteen, thus some doubles appear very full and fluffy while others appear to be only slightly double.

POLYTEPALOUS
A polytepalous daylily has extra whole tepals (sepals and petals) in the two tepal whorls of the flower. In other words, a polytepalous daylily has more than the normal three sepals (usually four or five) in the outer whorl and more than three petals (usually the same number as sepals) in the inner whorl.

If you do a Google image search you can see what each of these looks like.

Good luck with your pollinations. Tom

    Bookmark   June 24, 2004 at 8:43AM
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grumpygardenguy(7 northern AL)

Thanks Tom

That was very informative, as opposed to feeling like a slap on the wrist with a ruler.

Frankly, not knowing if the flower is a pleno or a Kwanso, if it's fertile or not, I think was part of my original question and follow up, not sure where Tim turned on me. Also don't think trying something, even if it has no chance of working, when it takes but a few seconds to do, is a waste of time. Climing a Mountain just to climb it, actually doesn't get you anywhere but up, and then you have to get back down, but it's something some enjoy doing.

    Bookmark   June 24, 2004 at 9:30AM
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farmfreedom

Try it anyways you might do it even if nobody else has before . I would use the quanzo as the male pollinater but try it both ways .It would be interesting to try to cross it with:bitone , giant ,purple , fragrant, and nearly white day lilies . good luck there are so few pioneers in this world . remember " NO GUTS NO GLORY" WHAT HAVE YOU GOT TO LOOSE .

    Bookmark   June 30, 2004 at 8:29PM
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ACCOLADY(7)

Good for you, Grumpy!

Don't let anyone wet the bed for you, you just
have fun doing what you're doing. It sounds like
your garden needs a sign like mine...

"No garden snobbery grows here"

I, too, have wondered about the Kwanzo or whatever
it is called (I still have homework to do)
and am thankful you posted. You received a few
wonderful and informative responses I've benefited
from.

Thanks! And, happy gardening!

    Bookmark   July 13, 2004 at 8:10PM
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Twilight_08(z8AL)

???Accolady??? Excuse me, I thought I had heard it all but never the expression that you used. LOL Does that mean 'grumpy' has to wet his own bed?...but then must he lay in it?

    Bookmark   July 14, 2004 at 12:34AM
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grumpygardenguy(7 northern AL)

Tom i actually got some pods, but they quickly just died, same has happened with yellow and standard orange daylilies i tried to cross polinate, those on the orange stalks all have died, whereas those on the yellow are still viable, Not sure why that is. Most likely those still forming are from some the bees were doing, not from any cross polinating i was doing.

As for wetting the bed, i would prefer i had wet it myself if i had no choice but to lay in it, no question about that.I do try not to wet the bed to often, though as i get older i'm sure it could become problematical. Funny how that works, I started out all wrinkled and bald needing diapers and wetting the bed and sooner of later ya end up all wrinkled, bald and sometimes wearin diapers and wettin the bed. can't tell me God doesn't have a worped sense of humor.

    Bookmark   July 14, 2004 at 1:20AM
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ACCOLADY(7)

I am rolling in laughter here, and it's just
eight in the morning. Thank you so much!

I'm headed out to pollinate. I'll watch out
for any wet spots. LOL!

    Bookmark   July 14, 2004 at 9:01AM
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grumpygardenguy(7 northern AL)

always good to start the day laughing.

Tom if your still looking...a side note to the last kwanso or pleno, whichever it is i got, that bloomed. For the most part all of the others had stamin with standard looking filaments and anthers. the last bloom however, had petals as filaments or if you prefer a more scientific description filaments resembling petals, with just a small anther at the tip or no anther at all, what causes that phenom.

    Bookmark   July 14, 2004 at 2:08PM
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membertom(zone 6)

grumpygardenguy,
I had the same thing happen, several years back when I tried pollinating the plain old orange one ('Europa') with pollen from Stella d'Oro. All the pods started to form and then dropped off. But the next year, I actually got a few mature seeds -- I had enlisted my friend's children to help me and we pollinated a boatload of blooms. I never did get those seeds to germinate, but I'll bet it can be done. As for the pods on the reverse type of cross, you most likely right that some bee-pollinations will have taken place. But, I wouldn't rule out a few actual real crosses among those offspring. I think you'd be able to tell by their exceptional vigor and size. Let us know how it works out for you. And good luck. Tom

Oh, And I don't have any idea why double-flowered daylilies sometimes have their filaments converted to petaloids. I have a hose-in-hose type (extra layers of petals in threes) called 'Zella Virginia' that I could have sworn, typically had the normal number of filaments in the center. It just looked like a bloom stuck inside another bloom. But this year it's making petaloids out of the filaments. I think I'm as just as much (or more) puzzled about these doubles.

    Bookmark   July 20, 2004 at 1:56PM
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keking(z6 TN)

A daylily I took to be 'Kwanzo' was fairly common in Kansas, last time I was there. It occasionally produced a half-anther with pollen on the side of a petal. I tried it on 'Hyperion' but got nothing for my trouble. 'Kwanzo' itself had no ovary and no stigma to pollinate.

I found what appears to be the same variety in Palo Alto, CA, though the plants are considerably larger. Better climate, I suppose.

This colony is rather odd because while most were extremely double in the usual way some of the plants had fewer petals but many more stamens. One bloom had the standard 6 tepals, but a stalk in the center of the bloom with too many stamens to count. Here are some pictures:

http://www.bulbnrose.com/Heredity/FreakyFlowers/Kwanzo1.jpg
http://www.bulbnrose.com/Heredity/FreakyFlowers/Kwanzo2.jpg
http://www.bulbnrose.com/Heredity/FreakyFlowers/Kwanzo3.jpg
http://www.bulbnrose.com/Heredity/FreakyFlowers/Kwanzo4.jpg

Karl

Here is a link that might be useful: Anomalous Heredity

    Bookmark   February 26, 2005 at 5:59PM
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ssbravelady(z7 TX)

Grumpy, I am impressed with the Kwanso picture. The color and clarity are great. Any pointers for a novice such as type of camera and settings?

    Bookmark   July 6, 2005 at 2:11AM
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grumpygardenguy(7 northern AL)

Actually it was just on auto focus with a 10 x zoom lens, on a older sony Macvia 2 megapixal digital camera. You can pick up an FD 73 or 79 fairly cheaply now that all the newer high 7 and 8 megapixals are out. cost me 400 back in the old days when new, I wouldn't be surprised if you could get a good used one for 50-75 bucks.

    Bookmark   July 7, 2005 at 12:48AM
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geoforce(z7a SE PA)

Kwanso is generally considered to be a triploid and essentially sterile. Especially seed sterile. Because of unequal gamete reduction, one can on ocassion get pollen from Kwanso to fertilize either diploids or tetraploids. Many daylily doubles have Kwanso in their background. Flora-plena is diploid and both seed and pollen fertile in at least some flowers.

As to doubles in hemerocallis:

Doubling is controlled by a set of genes called (I think I remember this correctly) homeobox genes. Several types of doubles occur.

1. 1-3 of the stamens become petaloids. This is the most common double type on the market.

2. All 6 of the stamens become petalloids. This is also fairly common.

3. The whorl of 6 stamens develops into a total flower and the whorl of this flower does so also, so on till it peters out. This is what Kwanso is. Also a lot of Betty Brown's (from Texas) doubles were of this type, and a few of Grooms' doubles like "Condilla". The cycle generally peters out after 2 or 3 cycles so these have 12-18 petals generally though sometimes more.

AHS (American Hemerocallis Society) now also classifies as doubles the so-called 'crested' doubles where the midrib of the petals flares out into a petaloid like structure. This is controlled apparently by a whole different gene set, and is very uncommon. Little is known about this type.

George

    Bookmark   July 7, 2005 at 9:12AM
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keking(z6 TN)

George,

The variety I saw in Kansas and now in California has more than 6 additional organs. One flower had 6 petals and a whorl of stamens arising from a central stalk. Many had extra petals in addition to extra stamens. The extreme form has a whorl of petals -- more than 12. This condition has been called petalomany (i.e, petal mania).

The forms you described do exist, of course. Petalomany is just another variation on the theme of doubling.

Karl

    Bookmark   July 7, 2005 at 1:29PM
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skohler(5)

can anyone tell me if this is a kwanso or not ?

susie

    Bookmark   August 21, 2005 at 9:25AM
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admmad

Arlow Stout did a great deal of pioneering work on daylilies and especially doubles. He found that both Kwanzo and flore pleno are triploids.

All doubles are variable in form; the amount of doubling seems to depend on temperature but may actually be affected by many climatic factors.

There are several different types of doubling and many genes that can produce doubling. One type turns the female part of the flower (the pistil) into petals or petal-like structures, a different type of double turns the male part of the flower (the stamen) into petal or petal-like structures (petaloids), and there are other types. When the stamen is turned into a petaloid the amount of petal tissue varies from a wing on one side to a complete petal with no pollen visible. Intermediate forms are the most common. In my cool climate most doubles do not ever double at all. Some produce a few flowers with one or two extra petals. In Florida the same plant will be double 100% of the time.

Both flore pleno and Kwanzo were used as parents in the early days of hybridizing but most of the double daylilies produced were of the stamen-transforming type. More recently doubles have been produced that still have all their sexual parts.

In crossing triploid daylilies with either diploid or tetraploid daylilies the sequence of events is that the cross will appear successful, the flower will wither and drop and a seed pod will start to develop. After a period of time that can be short or long most of the pods will abort. But a few pods may survive long enough to produce some apparently healthy, black seeds as well as empty seedcoats. Most of those seeds will not germinate. A very very few of the seeds will germinate to produce a seedling. Many of those seedlings will die before reaching maturity and flowering. It is not impossible but quite infrequent that a successful mature plant would be produced. (They were used successfully in the past so it is possible.)

Biologically, if you use diploid or tetraploid pollen on a triploid the pollen germinates and a sperm nucleus successfully fertilizes the egg and an embryo starts to develop. Because flowering plants have double fertilization a sperm also has to fuse with the polar nuclei (two of them) to form the endosperm tissue which will nourish the embryo). That also successfully occurs. Because development starts the plant is signaled to abort the flower but to keep the developing pod. However, some of the embryos will have an incorrect and unbalanced number of chromosomes (diploids have 22 or 11 pairs, triploids have 33, tetraploids have 44 chromosomes) and will die and the pod drops. In other cases the chromosome number may be in balance or only slightly wrong (say 23 or 34 or 21 chromosomes) and the embryo is viable. But the endosperm is not viable. The endosperm tissue is usually not viable in most cases because its chromosomal make-up is more important. Thus the pod drops. The endosperm balance number (EBN) is the factor considered to be important in seed development in crosses involving triploids (or other different chromosome numbers).

In trying to use Kwanzo or flore pleno I would suggest using their pollen (when it is present) on other daylilies (trying to choose as the pod parent a plant that does not set pods by insect pollinations or by itself).

    Bookmark   September 2, 2005 at 8:30AM
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the_white_rabbit(Z 6 Southern Ohio)

I was wondering if there as any more story here? Have all the players stop posting or is anyone still around with some more results?

    Bookmark   March 14, 2009 at 11:27AM
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xenobleps(z4 MN)

At some point after the original conversation, I looked into the matter a little.

The daylily I was able to find identified as 'Kwanso', upon dissection turned out to not have a stigma. Instead it had a very large number of smaller and smaller stamens at the end of a stigma-like structure. Thus, attempting to get seed on Kwanso as the seed parent would not appear to work out. I do not recall if the more mature stamens showed ripe looking pollen. Perhaps I will remember to examine the plants this bloom season.

Theoretically, someone might be able to use colchicine to produce a hexaploid version derived from Kwanso. This might then be used in crosses with other hexaploid lines.

Alternately, this article discusses the use of triploid daylillies in crosses.

    Bookmark   March 22, 2009 at 9:02PM
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