Aren't we so smart.

mrskjun(9)February 6, 2013

Seems like we had thread after thread both pro and con for the ground zero mosque. Turns out the guy who was the driving force behind it has been absconding with the funds and living a really lavish lifestyle.

Then we had thread after thread about the use of water boarding used on terrorists during the Bush administration and whether or not it was torture. Now we have Obama killing American citizens with drones because they are believed to be terrorists.

Now we are having thread after thread about guns...who knows how that will turn out.

Do you ever wonder why we bother?

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chase_gw

The appropriateness of a Muslim house of worship near ground zero was the issue that was being discussed and it's still worthy of discussion .

It is important to note that the man being sued for using funds for his personal use was removed from the Mosque project 2 years ago and I believe the money he is being sued over is from a fund other than the Mosque.
(edited to add the above)

The issue of the use of torture or the use of drones is a valid issue to discuss regardless of who is in office. In fact most liberals here have been very outspoken against the use of drones.

This post was edited by chase on Wed, Feb 6, 13 at 8:41

    Bookmark   February 6, 2013 at 8:33AM
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Lady_Brat

Interesting link regarding using drones against Americans.

Here is a link that might be useful: Drones

    Bookmark   February 6, 2013 at 8:38AM
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mrskjun(9)

Just for your info chase..

Imam Feisel Abdul Rauf, founder and CEO of the American Society for Muslim Advancement, is being accused of swiping donation money intended for the "Ground Zero" mosque to enjoy a lavish lifestyle.

Here is a link that might be useful: link

    Bookmark   February 6, 2013 at 9:04AM
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chase_gw

According to what I am reading the funds were taken from two funds unrelated to the mosque which he has not been associated with for over two years.

Neither fund mentioned in this article is for the Ground Zero mosque

" The imam's two nonprofit organizations are dedicated to educating the public about Islam and improving relationships between Muslims and people of other faiths."

It really doesn't matter however in the context of original OP.......the discussion relative to the location of the mosque was, and still is, valid.

Here is a link that might be useful: imamn with previous ties to Ground Zero mosque sued for fraud

    Bookmark   February 6, 2013 at 9:36AM
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labrea_gw

Selective moral outrage LOL!

    Bookmark   February 6, 2013 at 9:47AM
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Circus Peanut

Mrsk, I'm curious how that spurious news about Imam Feisel Abdul Rauf changes your opinion, expressed at the time, that majorities are justified in becoming oppressors of minority rights?

    Bookmark   February 6, 2013 at 9:57AM
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mrskjun(9)

Perhaps you would rather address the intent of the OP circuspeanut, rather than digging up the corpse of a horse to begin beating it again.

    Bookmark   February 6, 2013 at 10:07AM
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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

MsK, you championed Governor Perry, Speaker Gingrich, and Herman Cain during the GOP primary season. Each crashed and burned; why do you bother?

    Bookmark   February 6, 2013 at 10:13AM
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mrskjun(9)

labrea, yep, we have all been full of moral outrage ...whether it has been building or not building that mosque. Whether waterboarding was torture or not. Whether the drone strikes are better or no better. And yet the powers that be go merrily along and could care less what our outrage might be.

    Bookmark   February 6, 2013 at 10:15AM
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Circus Peanut

Good one, Mrsk! Exactly what is the OP about, if not revisiting very dead horses?

    Bookmark   February 6, 2013 at 10:17AM
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mrskjun(9)

What in the heck are you even talking about nancy?

    Bookmark   February 6, 2013 at 10:17AM
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Circus Peanut

Erm -- seeing your response to Nancy it's clear you don't even understand your own OP. Never mind.

    Bookmark   February 6, 2013 at 10:19AM
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mrskjun(9)

And I've been told I have poor reading comprehension...jeesh.

    Bookmark   February 6, 2013 at 10:20AM
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chase_gw

Mrs, I honestly don't understand the purpose of your OP, and I'm not bring snarky.

The discussions, as I recall , that we had about the mosque centered around strong feelings , pro and con , about building a Muslim house of worship close to the 911 site. Many felt it was their right, others felt it was disrespectful to the victims. The discussions were quite heated on both sides.

I don't understand how the actions of this imam have any bearing on the validity of those discussions. They were important than and they are still important....that's why we bother.

    Bookmark   February 6, 2013 at 10:21AM
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vgkg(Z-7)

Corruption, kickbacks, fraud, etc is pretty much in every facet of society, religion, capitalism, you name it. Money is a drug and there are a lot of abusers out there.

When Bush used torture & drones, I was against the torture not the use of the drones. I'm glad Obama is not using torture but I can only trust that he's using the drones with great care and purpose, and will greatly curtail and end their use once the war is over.

    Bookmark   February 6, 2013 at 10:46AM
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adoptedbyhounds

"Seems like we had thread after thread both pro and con for the ground zero mosque."

Yep. Liberals and his hapless donors/dupes took Rauf for an honest man with the purest of motives.

Thanks for updating them, mrskjun.

    Bookmark   February 6, 2013 at 10:53AM
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ohiomom

Actually vgkg I disagree about the use of drones, I see it as more the "future of warfare". I wish I had bookmarked or could remember where I read it but their was an article about this recently where it said the USofA was no longer going to have the traditional "boots on the ground" wars, but war would be waged "cyberly".

I oppose the use of drones.

    Bookmark   February 6, 2013 at 10:55AM
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epiphyticlvr

The couple noted that the Cordoba Initiative is already suing Mr. Deak and Ms. Solimon for $1.5 million in the United States District Court for the District of Columbia, accusing them of fraud and breach of trust. That lawsuit accuses them of knowingly inflating the value of a condominium in Washington that they sold to the Cordoba Initiative in 2010, and then failing to transfer the title.

Apparently you neglected to tell the whole story Mrsk. An important fact in this is there was already a lawsuit filed against Deak and Solimon by Faisel and Khan. I guess it will all come out in the wash.

    Bookmark   February 6, 2013 at 11:01AM
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vgkg(Z-7)

Ohiomom, I don't like it either, not sure if I'd frame it as agreeing with the use of drones any more or less than I would the use of cruse missile or an F-16 going in for a kill. Despite the unsavory action of bombing anything or anyone that appears as a threat the drone is the best "tool" to avoid making horrible mistakes. I can feel the uproar surrounding the "droaning" of the US citizen who joined with Al-Q and planned, but to me when he made that choice he gave up those rights. Killing him is no different for killing BL...gotta run for now..

    Bookmark   February 6, 2013 at 11:09AM
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kwoods(Cold z7 Long Is)

Why do we bother?

What an odd question. Are you really asking why we bother to oppose policies and positions with which we disagree based on moral grounds? Should we "follow" policies we disagree with just because they are going to happen anyway, regardless of our objections?

Our entire society, culture and political system is based on dissent. These institutions were born through revolution. Our election's are manifestations of dissent.

Amurika's very foundation is dissent... it's absolutely and without question the most patriotic and "American" thing we do.

    Bookmark   February 6, 2013 at 11:11AM
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labrea_gw

Shes doing a LABREA style post!~ You know looky looky what that CLERIC is doing.
Just this guy didn't molest hundreds of kids or cover it up on a grand scale or have to pay out 600 Million for the deal. They sure show up for each other because that's what this posts reveals the most to me about the morals squad.
Really and truly that's what those post revealed to me was the silence (I know you read them but will shut your mouths because the other side is posting it,
It's A morsel a gotcha from (consider the history of non response to Pastor rapes teen girls, Pastor steals Millions for porn & gambling. how many of those posts have I posted over the years their annoying aren't they.

I saaw this once & it reminded me of the so called Forum!

I can see that tongue out at the altar rail!

    Bookmark   February 6, 2013 at 11:12AM
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jillinnj

And I've been told I have poor reading comprehension

And this entire post is the perfect example of your reading comprehension problems.

Although, trying to give you the benefit of the doubt...maybe your writing skills are what is lacking. You seem to be saying that what you wrote in your OP is not what you meant to say (since you didn't understand nancy's point).

We bother because they are topics that should be discussed by everyone. Why you bother, I have no idea.

    Bookmark   February 6, 2013 at 11:20AM
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demifloyd(8)

And we will always have windmill fighting to fall back on.

    Bookmark   February 6, 2013 at 11:21AM
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momj47(7A)

I'm glad we bother, I learn a lot during these discussions, and have even changed my opinion on issues in the past. Sometimes because of a cogent argument here, and sometimes because the discussion sends me off to research something I didn't know about.

Keep bothering.

    Bookmark   February 6, 2013 at 11:47AM
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mylab123(z5NW)

Mrsk and Nik, that thread was about the mosques placement, not a man and the congregations money.
The man in question wasn't the driving force behind the mosque's placement -----the people of the mosque was.
The fact that you both are so confused really should explain to us all everything almost every issue you both have had such odd arguments over.
Let the rest of us not get bogged down by arguments about this man and his deceit, that is not a hot topic to debate. The people of the mosque are taking care of him and his deceit and thieft. Nothing to "debate" or be twisted about.
The mosque went where the mosque belonged, despite Mrskj. And Niks rage over it. The mosque went where it had a right to go.
That you two didn't get your way over it - well, they say time heals all wounds!

As far as drone usage goes, I don't trust Obama simply to "do the right thing" every time. Understanding that the people watch with a close eye hopefully will keep those in charge of drone attacks careful. If not a political scandal where his own supporters hold his feet to the fire is likely to happen.

Unlike the Bush wars and you, Mrsk.
Heck, you felt deprived that you werent allowed to vote for him a third time and said so. Repeatedly.
So we know the importance you place on innocent human life if you approve of a President, willing to defend his actions as if your very own honor and dignity ere questioned.

With that nugget of info in mind, it should explain everything we need to understand about your fresh * OUTRAGE* gotcha attempt which fell flat.

Still feeling sore over the election loss, 'eh?
They say time heals all wounds.

    Bookmark   February 6, 2013 at 11:49AM
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labrea_gw

I think it's a field ripe for flim, flam & fraud sexual misadventures all dressed up in an aura of propriety.
I just enjoy the selectivity that goes on by the tag teams.
The thrust of this post is Joy that a miserable morsel was found!

    Bookmark   February 6, 2013 at 11:56AM
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chase_gw

The attached article from FOX also states the alleged misuse of funds had nothing to do with the mosque.

I really don't understand, I mean really don't understand , what this has to do with the validity of discussions with regards to the mosque.

Am I to take it that , because a FORMER supporter of the mosque is accused of misusing funds from NON related charitable funds, that the entire argument with regards to the right of the people to build a mosque near ground zero vs the feeling s of the victims families was a totally invalid discussion?

Am I to take it that the alleged charges against this man proves that American Muslims should have been denied thier first amendment rights??

I really don't get the point!

Here is a link that might be useful: news you can trust.......

    Bookmark   February 6, 2013 at 12:00PM
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Factotem

mrskjun wrote,

we had thread after thread about the use of water boarding used on terrorists during the Bush administration....Do you ever wonder why we bother?

Discussions all over the country on topics such as waterboarding ultimately led to the defeat of the Republicans in the 2008 election (noting that even the Repubulican candidate opposed waterboarding). That's why some of us bother.

    Bookmark   February 6, 2013 at 12:02PM
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mylab123(z5NW)

Make that: .....the Republican candidate who was, himself, tortured when he was a POW. Which, much to the disgust of those who were rah-rah- pro-torture made him, McCain, an expert on the topic.

Unlike Mrskj. or Nik.

    Bookmark   February 6, 2013 at 12:13PM
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Factotem

To follow on, those in the center and on the left who employ an intellectually honest approach to formulating positions whereby facts are assembled and reason applied, thus leading to a conclusion, benefit from discussions that bring forth facts and allow an opportunity for reason to be tested.

On the other hand, coneservatives frequently select a position first, based on preference, bias, prejudice, or other factors, and any discussions that follow are merely defenses of the pre-selected position, not honest efforts to learn more about the subject so that one's position can be refined accordingly. This behavior is on display here frequently, where we see conservatives fail to even admit or retract their misstatements offered in support of a position, and corrected facts are ignored so that conclusions don't have to be modified.

So, for someone who uses the latter methodology, there may not be any value in bothering to discuss issues. For people who employ the former approach, it can be very important.

This post was edited by Factotem on Wed, Feb 6, 13 at 13:39

    Bookmark   February 6, 2013 at 12:32PM
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labrea_gw

I just walked by the site yesterday & wondered wheres all the crowds of howlers. There's a lot of good odd lost stores in the area!
Now I would have no problem picketing the Center after it was open when they started in with the local Catholics & Orthodox Jews over anything gay but in the meanwhile if those other jerks could do their song & dance routines why not one more.

OH I FORGOT IT"S SACRED GROWWWWWND! gzzzzz louise
I got to remember that and make some kind of mark on my forehead next time I get off at Chambers Street. Perhaps next week on ash Wednesday.

    Bookmark   February 6, 2013 at 12:36PM
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patriciae_gw(07)

the OP seems to me to be murky thinking. A does not equal B or have anything to do with B. The juxtapositon of disparat thoughts can sometimes lead to new insight but not this time.

    Bookmark   February 6, 2013 at 12:45PM
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adoptedbyhounds

"Mrsk and Nik, that thread was about the mosques placement, not a man and the congregations money."

Which thread was that?

    Bookmark   February 6, 2013 at 6:54PM
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citywoman2012

Posted by mylab123 z5NW (My Page) on Wed, Feb 6, 13 at 11:49

Still feeling sore over the election loss, 'eh?
They say time heals all wounds.
***********************************************************

Mrskj here is a cartoon you might want to save and the
many times you are accused again of being a sore loser
by a liberal that just can't get over Bush's election...
you might want to repost this reminder.

Hang in there Mrskj.

    Bookmark   February 6, 2013 at 7:50PM
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littleonefb(zone 5, MA)

Takes a long time to get over 8 years of Bush, regardless of how he won.

The disasters, the damage, the lies; 2 wars.

Takes a lot longer than going on 13 years, based on that pic CW.

I'm sure Mrskjun will "hang in there" just fine with or without your support CW, she's been her a long, long time, long before you where here.

    Bookmark   February 6, 2013 at 8:05PM
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citywoman2012

Oh, I don't know littleone....it kinda helps Conservatives
Independents and Republicans to know they have someone
rooting for them when they get bombarded with the
"usual".

I have read many of your posts aimed at Mrskj.
She can take care of herself splendidly, I have seen her
do it.

    Bookmark   February 6, 2013 at 8:23PM
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elvis

"Selective moral outrage LOL!"

Isn't all "moral outrage" selective?

    Bookmark   February 6, 2013 at 8:23PM
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mylab123(z5NW)

Give it up littleone, ya just cant fight (insert appropriate word).

    Bookmark   February 6, 2013 at 9:17PM
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elvis

...city hall? Probably not what you had in mind.

I took the OP to be an invitation to all to just commisserate; surely nothing sinister. I think it's okay to leave a stone unturned now and then.

    Bookmark   February 6, 2013 at 9:27PM
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chase_gw

This is a prefect example of the carp that goes on here.

A topic is posted with a purpose that isn't quite clear and certain assertions that are shown to be wrong. Questions are asked and clarification is requested.

The response is sarcastic one liners with no acknowledgment that perhaps the facts as originally presented were incomplete.

No answers to legitimate questions, no clarification.......

Reminds me of something CW ( I think) once said........that conservatives were the only ones capable of an intelligent discussion. Look back at this thread and give me one example of that......just sarcastic one liners and zero response to legitimate questions.

    Bookmark   February 6, 2013 at 9:29PM
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mylab123(z5NW)

"Probably not what you had in mind"....on that point you would be correct, Elvis.

"Aren't we so smart."

That is the subject of posting I think those words would pretty much negate your premise that the the intention was simply to commiserate Elvis. That, and pretty much every political statement Mrskj. has made in, oh lets say the last year, keeping the timeline simple.

And, that is before we read a single word that followed in the op, nor any remarks she made afterward.

It would be helpful if you tried to be a little less disingenious. You are a very bright woman. You recently stated that you not interested in being politically correct. I commend you on that, its a good thing to avoid when forming an opinion or a basis for one in my opinion.

However, I wish you were just a little less conservatively correct, at least when it comes to defending the indefensible within this forum.

I have a feeling that outside this forum, though certainly a conservative, you might very well not be quite so conservatively correct - but of course I could be mistaken, its just a hunch I've formed,. but my hunches are frequently way off base.

    Bookmark   February 6, 2013 at 10:10PM
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elvis

"It would be helpful if you tried to be a little less disingenious."

Not a bit; that is, I'm not. I've been through this before. As long as I restrain any urges to be snarky, this is the way I am. And I'm not going to argue with you about it, protest, defend, or counter attack. I guess you'll just have to take it or leave it, that is to say, scroll on by.

    Bookmark   February 6, 2013 at 10:31PM
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mylab123(z5NW)

That is fine Elvis. You see it your way, I see it mine. Who knows who is actually correct, or even mostly correct?
It probably doesn't make much difference when it comes to this forum anyway.

The hot topics forum: it is what it is.

    Bookmark   February 6, 2013 at 10:41PM
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jodik_gw

The whole COUNTRY is still trying to get over the 8 disastrous years Bush spent in office f-ing up the nation and various parts of the world!

    Bookmark   February 6, 2013 at 10:42PM
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citywoman2012

I'm still waiting to see a recovery.
We are going into our 5th year (oh, it only seems like yesterday was 2008 snark snark) of Obama and I'm still serving at the Community
Kitchen down town every Wednesday and the lines keep getting longer.

    Bookmark   February 7, 2013 at 2:32AM
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brightonborn

Understanding that the people watch with a close eye hopefully will keep those in charge of drone attacks careful. If not a political scandal where his own supporters hold his feet to the fire is likely to happen.

If you think for a second that Obama gives a rats a-- about what his supporters think you are mistaken.

Paul Krugman says>

And we're also going to do, really, we're going to have to make decisions about health care, not pay for health care that has no demonstrated medical benefits. So you know the snarky version I use, which is, I shouldn't even say because it will get me in trouble, is death panels and sales taxes is how we do this."

    Bookmark   February 7, 2013 at 7:11AM
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momj47(7A)

And when was the Community Kitchen founded? I'm sure it wasn't 5 years ago.

It's heartbreaking, isn't it. Your service is appreciated, and needed.

Many of the soup kitchens here were founded, by churches, in the 1980's - wasn't that in the Reagan administration?

The rescue missions in most cities were founded about 100 years ago to serve homeless men on skid row and have since expanded their services to include women and families, and most of that expansion also took place in the 1980's, during the Reagan and Bush administrations.

Of course the Catholic charities started providing services in the 1860's. I volunteered at one, with my son, in the (19)90's, with long lines then, that included mothers and children.

So not too many of these programs are recent developments, nor the result policies of the Obama administration.

Oh, by the way, the ongoing economic problems - you can lay this at the feet of George Bush.

This post was edited by momj47 on Thu, Feb 7, 13 at 7:38

    Bookmark   February 7, 2013 at 7:34AM
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mrskjun(9)

Oh, by the way, the ongoing economic problems - you can lay this at the feet of George Bush.

No mom you can't. It was Obama who wanted the job..who promised to cut the deficit in half, to bring down unemployment...all by the third year of his term. It is now the fifth year, unemployment just ticked up again, the economy has contracted, our debt is staggering, the food stamp rolls have skyrocketed. This is Obamas economy, both good and bad.

    Bookmark   February 7, 2013 at 8:02AM
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Factotem

mrskjun wrote,

"Oh, by the way, the ongoing economic problems - you can lay this at the feet of George Bush."

No mom you can't. It was Obama who wanted the job..who promised to cut the deficit in half

That's interesting. You had previously claimed that Obama promised to cut the national debt in half in three years.

Was that false?

    Bookmark   February 7, 2013 at 8:10AM
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chase_gw

I agree, President Obama owns the recovery BUT Bush owns the destruction of it.

By the way Mrs, back to you're OP.....do you now agree that the alleged misuse of funds was not from the NYC mosque funds?

    Bookmark   February 7, 2013 at 8:10AM
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momj47(7A)

Oh, no, we are paying for the Bush policies, and probably will for years and years to come.

Easy money, fake wars, dishonest from top to bottom characterized Bush and his cronies. And it's going to take many administrations to undo the damage from what will probably be described by historians in the future as the worst presidential administration in the history of the US.

    Bookmark   February 7, 2013 at 8:11AM
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mrskjun(9)

You must have missed my second post chase where I also provided a link.

Imam Feisel Abdul Rauf, founder and CEO of the American Society for Muslim Advancement, is being accused of swiping donation money intended for the "Ground Zero" mosque to enjoy a lavish lifestyle.

    Bookmark   February 7, 2013 at 8:13AM
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mrskjun(9)

mom, as liberals say so easily now that republicans have the house....the house controls the purse strings. Well guess who held the purse strings the last two years of the Bush presidency? So I won't blame Obama for everything, but Bush can't be blamed for everything either. If I remember, it was Clinton who pushed for all those home loans originally. How far do we need to go back. We could say he had a great economy because of republicans in the house and senate...or was it because of the policies of Reagan?

    Bookmark   February 7, 2013 at 8:22AM
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momj47(7A)

Probably the Reagan policies.

    Bookmark   February 7, 2013 at 8:29AM
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chase_gw

I thought the FOX information would have convinced you.....several others are reporting as FOX is.

The lawsuit only specifies two foundations that have nothing to do with the mosque .

However, if you prefer your first source over FOX.....that's fine. I have my preferred sources too.

    Bookmark   February 7, 2013 at 8:58AM
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chase_gw

Meant to add that its refreshing to hear you say FOX is wrong in what they are reporting.

    Bookmark   February 7, 2013 at 9:02AM
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Lady_Brat

MrsK"""""""""Now we have Obama killing American citizens with drones because they are believed to be terrorists."

Seems everyone ignored the above comment in MrsK's post and centered in on the mosque or once again blamed Bush. Any particular reason for that? Maybe it has something to do with the information in the link I provided. (exerpt below) I would think you obama supporters would surely like to explain how you support this.

"A confidential Justice Department memo concludes that the U.S. government can order the killing of American citizens if they are believed to be "senior operational leaders" of al-Qaida or "an associated force" -- even if there is no intelligence indicating they are engaged in an active plot to attack the U.S.
The 16-page memo, a copy of which was obtained by NBC News, provides new details about the legal reasoning behind one of the Obama administration´┐Żs most secretive and controversial polices: its dramatically increased use of drone strikes against al-Qaida suspects abroad, including those aimed at American citizens, such as the September 2011 strike in Yemen that killed alleged al-Qaida operatives Anwar al-Awlaki and Samir Khan. Both were U.S. citizens who had never been indicted by the U.S. government nor charged with any crimes."

mylab"""""""So we know the importance you place on innocent human life if you approve of a President, willing to defend his actions as if your very own honor and dignity ere questioned. "

mylab, The link I provided sort of makes me scratch my head in wonder at your above statement.

    Bookmark   February 7, 2013 at 10:40AM
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chase_gw

Brat, I think it's because most people here agree that they are uncomfortable or down right unhappy with the drone attacks. Liberals have come out against them on many, many threads......only a few support them or are conflicted. I'm in the conflicted camp.

    Bookmark   February 7, 2013 at 10:51AM
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Factotem

mrskjun wrote,

So I won't blame Obama for everything, but Bush can't be blamed for everything either.

You claimed Obama promised to cut the debt in half in three years and failed. But your claim is false.

Why won't you retract it?

    Bookmark   February 7, 2013 at 11:49AM
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Lady_Brat

Chase""""""Brat, I think it's because most people here agree that they are uncomfortable or down right unhappy with the drone attacks."

I too am in the conflicted camp but there were a few here, who worship daily at obama's feet, whose opinion it would be interesting to hear. The targeting of "American Citizens even if there is no intelligence indicating they are engaged in an active plot to attack the U.S." I believe, takes the use of drones one step further. The article stated that at least two American Citizens have already been targeted and killed. Anwar al-Awlaki and Samir Khan. Both were U.S. citizens who had never been indicted by the U.S. government nor charged with any crimes." Curious to hear comments from those who have applauded every obama drone killing but alas it's been very quiet.

    Bookmark   February 7, 2013 at 2:44PM
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fouquieria(10b)

Curious to hear comments from those who have applauded every obama drone killing but alas it's been very quiet.

Well this lib has no problem with it. I bet if some of the locals in Mali or Yemen or Waziristan were interviewed, it would be a shock how many of them support it too. I feel bad that the Islamists hide in homes of innocents but in the long run these drones have been extremely effective. Whether some of us appreciate it or not.

-Ron-

    Bookmark   February 7, 2013 at 3:06PM
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chase_gw

Brat, you may want to go back and reread some drone threads . Most liberals here oppose them.

    Bookmark   February 7, 2013 at 3:11PM
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mylab123(z5NW)

Put me down for being extremely conflicted and not trusting Obama or any President to have the one in charge of approving each mission to be fully accountable for each missions validity and to be accountable for each civilians unnecessary death. I suspect that drones do have their proper place. I also suspect it would be VERY easy to be much too casual with the use of them-- by any administration, most certainly this one since we are still involved in fighting and in trying to get out of there.

I have no illusions about Obama being a saint and never have. It was with great disappointment that the conservative party I had always staunchly supported finally failed our country so utterly. Remember, I was the daughter of a career military man who served in WWII and Korea, then married a man who had to serve in the nearly the last year of Viet Nam, among many other overseas and stateside duty assignments because he chose to be career military.
I have always been proud of the military men and their sacrifices as well as my own VERY great sacrifices necessarily made as a military wife - military wives sacrifice in ways the civilian world cant begin to know.

That I finally, finally could not support the conservative approach was a very difficult conclusion for me to arrive to and there were personal difficulties to deal with because of it.

Four years ago it was with great reluctance that I voted for the first time against Mcain and especially against the party I had supported and identified with all my voting life.

Last November it was with great and powerful enthusiasm that I voted for the man and the party I will support, at least until the GOP finally finds its way again and I then have an option to thoughtfully weigh and choose from when I go into the voting booth.
As it stands, I remain incredibly grateful that neither GOP opponent won the race Obama was against them in.

I dont think Obama walks on water and I disagree with how he has handled a lot of issues. And I watch as we depend more and more on drones, wondering what it must feel like to hear those engines above me coming and going, all day and night as I would send my beloved children off to school, kiss my husband goodbye as he leaves to make his living and then go about my own work for the day, all the while knowing the purpose of those drones and the imperfect people who pull the triggers on them.

Im not blind in my support of Obama and his party anymore than I was blind in the support and votes for the republican Presidents and party I identified myself with.
Blind support combined, now, with blind hatred results in what the GOP has become and I worry that it as easily and blindly happen to the Democratic party in its own, liberal way.

This is why I feel so strongly that the GOP has got to get itself together, get more centerists for reps and have the more centerist voters vocally drown out the hate- driven blathering of the ignorants.

I am most certainly watching Obama carefully and with a critical eye - over the drones and over other issues which the conservatives here could bring up as an actual topic for concern, with ideas for resolution, rather than as an hysterical "GOTCHA!" in the dreary, boring, ignorant point winning game called "Obama will leave this country in ruins!"

    Bookmark   February 7, 2013 at 3:50PM
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kwoods(Cold z7 Long Is)

Last night Saw Hannity making some of the same false equivalencies as stated in the OP.... just to bring a little clarity to these murky waters.

    Bookmark   February 7, 2013 at 3:57PM
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mylab123(z5NW)

Kwoods- dont know how you manage to watch it. I made the very sincere effort to warch a total of two hours of FOX a week in an attempt to understand the main, basic position from which too many conservatives formulate all their political stands. This was later in the first year of Obama's term. I lasted about four months.
I just couldn't take the underlying darkness and deep, resentful bigotry which infuses conservative positions and thus political conversations then and now. Could not take it.

I am not surprised at what you heard Hannity saying.
Of *course* thats what FOX's Hannity was saying. Of course Mrskj started this thread on this topic, wording it the way she always does, almost at the same time.

Of course.

    Bookmark   February 7, 2013 at 4:19PM
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chase_gw

....except Mrs does not support FOX's position on which funds were allegedly abused. She has taken a position that FOX is incorrect in their reporting.

    Bookmark   February 7, 2013 at 4:25PM
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epiphyticlvr

Last night Saw Hannity making some of the same false equivalencies as stated in the OP...

What a surprise. (NOT)

    Bookmark   February 7, 2013 at 4:31PM
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Lady_Brat

chase"""""""Most liberals here oppose them."

Yes I understand that chase, but there were the few who applauded use of drones.........as long as obama did it.

    Bookmark   February 7, 2013 at 4:37PM
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mylab123(z5NW)

Just as there were those who will oppose whatever it is Obama will propose, as long as Obama is the one proposing it.

I agree LB, there is blindness of those on both sides.

As long as the vast majority of voters from both parties don't fall into that tunnel visioned, unbending, blindly supportive attitude, there is a chance for our country's advancement.

    Bookmark   February 7, 2013 at 4:44PM
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chase_gw

Brat, I suspect that those that support the drones do so regardless of the administration.

    Bookmark   February 7, 2013 at 5:17PM
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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

I suspect that those that support the drones do so regardless of the administration.

At least two Obama supporters in HT have stated that they approved of the Bush's invasion of Afghanistan.

    Bookmark   February 7, 2013 at 5:37PM
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vgkg(Z-7)

Yes, but that he dropped the ball big time after doing so.

    Bookmark   February 7, 2013 at 5:40PM
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vgkg(Z-7)

...and that Rummy was an incompetent idiot, Cheney was a war mongering moron, and Bush was aloof. These were the guys who after 9-11 Rushed Limbaughdomie called "the grown-ups in charge". Phooey!

    Bookmark   February 7, 2013 at 5:46PM
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labrea_gw

Look at all the Supreme Court cases the last Administration lost in regards to prisoners being held in Guantanamo. Hamdan vs Rumsfeld, Boumediene Vs Bush, Hamdi vs Rumsfeld. Still waiting for this Court to strike at the Drones which would have to be a strike at Congress which some folks don't seem to get. I wish the court would also declare the OBAMA improvement for the MC as invalid as the Bush MC but they haven't YET!

Lady who applauded the drones except for Bush's use of them I hope your not including me in that & if you are I want you to site where I ever knocked Bushes limited use of drones.
I believe bush is a war criminal for invading Iraq but do not fault his use of drone in pursuit of al Qaeda or traitorous US citizens who won't turn themselves in.

    Bookmark   February 7, 2013 at 6:02PM
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ohiomom

As much as dems criticize and disagree with their elected officials I always find it amazing that some on HT still claim we "worship a Messiah". The big tent has no problems criticizing and disagreeing with their leaders, we break all of Reagan's rules on that.

When Americans get hit by a foreign drone, I guess it will be because they hate us for our (fill in the blank).

    Bookmark   February 7, 2013 at 6:12PM
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elvis

"As much as dems criticize and disagree with their elected officials I always find it amazing that some on HT still claim we "worship a Messiah".

I'm not one of them; in fact I can think of just two self-proclaimed liberals who consistently defend President Obama no matter what, and they are quite nasty with what they must see as righteous counter attacks. Unfortunately for the rest of the group they have attached themselves to, they are embarrassing in their slavish devotion, and dogged consistency.

The rest of the liberals here, to the best of my recollection, do from time to time admit to imperfection on the part of the president (which is unnecessary, IMO).

While I'm at it, the vast majority of posters on both sides of the aisles have either condemned drone attacks, espressed misgivings or dismay, or at the very least avoided endorsing such attacks.

    Bookmark   February 7, 2013 at 6:31PM
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dublinbay z6 (KS)

Unfortunately for the rest of the group they have attached themselves to, they are embarrassing in their slavish devotion, and dogged consistency.
--said about "two self-proclaimed liberals who consistently defend President Obama no matter what."

They may embarrass you, elvis, but they do not embarrass me, another self-proclaimed liberal who, however, has been known to criticize and disagree with the Obama administration on certain issues. Feeling quite conflicted on drones, for instance. But devout followers of Obama do not embarrass me at all, even if I don't share their enthusiasm 100 %.

Kate

    Bookmark   February 7, 2013 at 7:42PM
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citywoman2012

elvis...I know of four. Worship at his feet. Would defend him if he had us lined up to put on the train.

    Bookmark   February 7, 2013 at 10:21PM
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elvis

CW, I didn't say that; I said that these posters "consistently defend President Obama no matter what, and they are quite nasty with what they must see as righteous counter attacks." The outlandish metaphors just get folks' backs up.

    Bookmark   February 7, 2013 at 10:30PM
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marshallz10(z9-10 CA)

"All aboard, next stop Auschwitz" (right, CW?)

Thank you, Elvis, for some semblance of fairness.

    Bookmark   February 7, 2013 at 11:03PM
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Factotem

Citywoman2012 wrote,

elvis...I know of four. Worship at his feet. Would defend him if he had us lined up to put on the train.

What's on your list of Republican intolerances?

    Bookmark   February 7, 2013 at 11:28PM
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labrea_gw

The silent minority an all that!

    Bookmark   February 7, 2013 at 11:47PM
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citywoman2012

elvis...I know you didn't say it....I did.

    Bookmark   February 8, 2013 at 12:06AM
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mylab123(z5NW)

I would like to thank Elvis, too, for her fair comments. That is the way this place can be salvaged, perhaps.

There are always going to be a few who will be extremely reluctant, if ever willing, to voice any critical comment about Obama. After the firestorm of shocking and unfounded statements about the man personally during his first years and after this last contentious election, if they are at the very least, less than pleased on at least a few points of his performance thus far, *in this forum* it might be unlikely that they will be willing to criticize anything.

You have to remember that some extremely personal, shockingly ugly, completely unfounded insinuations about him started being made the moment he won the first nomination, and as demonstrated above, those insinuations have never stopped from a select group of Americans.
Those kind of hateful words and insinuations sucked up a lot of energy and went a long way in preventing any worthwhile dialog for a very long time concerning this President's performance.

For a few democrats, there might not be a chance left that in this hot topics forum, any clear and forthright critical words will ever come.

If they were able to finally, at times, when germane to the topic, discuss his shortcoming - I believe that the comments which CW etc. has been making since she came in would only be further underscored on the ugly place the words have always come from. Its not completely necessary as by now that place has been highlighted with the most intense lighting as it is - always has been by those people all by themselves..

However it has been that constant undercurrent for all these years which has probably set the stage for a few to refuse to be critical on this President, ever, in Hot topics.

It is what it is, I think hot topics can move and improve in an upward direction despite the extremely few who refuse to be critical of the President in any real way on any point.

If the focus of their refusal is a stopping point or even a stumbling block, for better dialog with us all- then again, perhaps the focus remains in the wrong place.

At any rate, I sense some improvement and Im grateful for it.

    Bookmark   February 8, 2013 at 12:34PM
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