Papa Says fertility Treatments Arrogant

labrea_gwFebruary 27, 2012

The Old man is at it again!

The pope is pressing for a ban on artificial procreation and called on science and fertility experts to resist âÂÂeasy income, or even worse the arrogance of taking the place of the Creator.âÂÂ

Here is a link that might be useful: Lets Play House

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kingturtle(Zone 7 GA)

Easy income? Taking the place of the Creator? How bizarre. In addition to reproductive organs and a biological drive to have kids, the Creator gave us a brain to figure out stuff. Yet another decree for Catholics to completely ignore.

    Bookmark   February 27, 2012 at 10:11AM
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jodik_gw

Regretting some life choices, perhaps?

He's old and approaching senility... what does he know. Modern fertility techniques can be awesome.

    Bookmark   February 27, 2012 at 10:28AM
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david52_gw

Still, when it comes to the shear lack of common sense, I vote for denouncing the use of condoms in the fight against AIDS in sub-saharan Africa.

    Bookmark   February 27, 2012 at 10:35AM
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patriciae_gw(07)

I have been predicting in my neck of the woods that these sorts of procedures would be next on the right wing radar-there are lots of things doctors do to help women get pregnant and stay pregnant thus interfering with god's intentions-just wait-it wont be just the pope.

    Bookmark   February 27, 2012 at 12:37PM
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jillinnj

Now they've totally lost me.

It says this:
"On Saturday, the Pope did offer hope for couples who are struggling to become parents: He said the church encourages medical research on infertility."

Medical reasearch to do what, exactly? If you cannot do anything with the cards you've been dealt (not able to get pregnant without help), what does he mean by that? Medical research to do what???

Totally crazy and ridiculous!

    Bookmark   February 27, 2012 at 1:08PM
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lily316(z5PA)

Senility..dementia?

    Bookmark   February 27, 2012 at 1:20PM
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jodik_gw

I'd say more, Lily, but I'd be accused of Christian bashing.

Since when does the Pope rule the world?

    Bookmark   February 27, 2012 at 1:25PM
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hamiltongardener(CAN 6a)

Medical reasearch to do what, exactly? If you cannot do anything with the cards you've been dealt (not able to get pregnant without help), what does he mean by that? Medical research to do what???

jill in nj,

In answer to your question, the Catholic prohibition is on artificial insemination, in other words the fertilization of an egg outside of a woman's body or delivery of sperm through artificial means. It is not a ban on seeking medical help for infertility.

In other words, the Catholic church supports medical research on raising sperm counts or surgeries to unblock fallopian tubes, that sort of thing. Something that will facilitate fertilization through "natural" methods.

Hope that helps clear things up.

    Bookmark   February 27, 2012 at 2:19PM
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jodik_gw

Actually, it doesn't mean a thing... unless you follow the dogma. And there's something a little off about a group of males of our species, claiming celibacy, yet dictating the reproductive actions of others.

For a group that can't even keep their own "employees" under control without paying out huge out-of-court settlements to traumatized parishioner families, all the while sweeping madly under rugs and moving their workers all over the planet while in denial... well, something just doesn't sit right.

    Bookmark   February 27, 2012 at 3:15PM
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hamiltongardener(CAN 6a)

Actually, it doesn't mean a thing... unless you follow the dogma. And there's something a little off about a group of males of our species, claiming celibacy, yet dictating the reproductive actions of others.

I know it doesn't mean anything. I think most people know that I'm not a religious believer of any kind.

I was just clearing up the meaning and intent in Catholic dogma concerning fertility treatments and research... in what jill was asking.

Their prohibition of artificial insemination does not mean a ban seeking help with conceiving a child. It's the methods used which they are concerned with.

    Bookmark   February 27, 2012 at 3:30PM
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labrea_gw

Not in the dish!

    Bookmark   February 27, 2012 at 4:45PM
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vgkg(Z-7)

"The pope is pressing for a ban on artificial procreation"

Tell that to the aliens ;)

Is the Pope competing with Santorum?....maybe the Pope show up at the brokered convention!? Wow what a Show!

    Bookmark   February 27, 2012 at 5:08PM
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jillinnj

Thanks for the explanation, hamiltongardener. That does help me understand that at least some methods are ok, in their view.

I just find it amazing that the church can tell a couple that badly wants to have a baby that option 1 and 2 are ok, but option 3 - which may be the only option that works for that couple - is not ok. The church is telling that couple that you cannot use a medical procedure that has proven to work. They are attempting to prevent that couple from bringing a baby into the world that will undoubtably be very loved. I'll just never understand it.

    Bookmark   February 27, 2012 at 6:03PM
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hamiltongardener(CAN 6a)

I don't get it either, jill.

But I know a number of women who, in spite of being Catholic, have pursued IVF. I know an even larger number of them who use birth control... most of them really.

I don't agree with the church's stance on fertility treatments but just wanted to make sure that people were arguing the matter from an informed stance, not one based on flawed information. There are plenty of reasons to disagree with the dogma without the incorrect info.

Oh, and since I don't think we've met... welcome! Nice to meet you.

    Bookmark   February 27, 2012 at 6:30PM
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natal(Louisiana 8b)

From what I understand the majority of Catholic women use some form of birth control.

The leaders are so out of touch with reality. Their parishioners do as they please and ignore the dogma.

    Bookmark   February 27, 2012 at 7:09PM
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labrea_gw

The politicians utilize the dogma to cherry pick that which they hold sacred & that which they conveniently sidestep!

    Bookmark   February 27, 2012 at 7:34PM
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hamiltongardener(CAN 6a)

The politicians utilize the dogma to cherry pick that which they hold sacred & that which they conveniently sidestep!

True.

Politicians who trumpet Catholic stance against birth control are the same ones who conveniently forget that the Chuch is also against the death penalty and war.

    Bookmark   February 27, 2012 at 7:41PM
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jillinnj

hamiltongardener - thank you for the nice welcome! I've been around GW for a long time, but don't post much over here on HT. Read a lot, but haven't posted much. Thanks again.

    Bookmark   February 27, 2012 at 8:05PM
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mylab123(z5NW)

Welcome Jill!

I don't understand the stand the Catholic church takes on this issue. After all, it is a live child, a child in every biological way, a new little soldier of Christ I would presume, so does the Church look upon the child itself as having a lacking? I don't think so, really. So have the parents committed a Mortal Sin if the Child is accepted and baptised as a Catholic?

It could get confusing. I first heard of the church's stand when a friend of mine (one of the first handful having I.V. in the country in the very early 80's) talked about how awful it really was as a means to having a child, a real emotional roller coaster, but how worth it it all was in the end. She was a Catholic, and after she left, another woman who is a Fundamentalist Catholic (I swear, cultish in nature, won't attend Mass if it's not said in Latin, will not go at all! and years ago, had the fundamentalist priest regularly perform some sort of exorcism over her child (a few words) because the child is very hard to handle. I swear.) Anyway, since she knew I was also a non-practicing Catholic she told me in hushed terms that the child really wasn't considered having a soul by the church because they had the child created instead of making it the natural way.

That was the ickiest conversation I ever had. How I kept a straight face I will never know, but I did my best to divert her attention to 'something shiny' to get her OUT of my face.

    Bookmark   February 28, 2012 at 12:25AM
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jodik_gw

Wow, Mylab... talk about an uncomfortable conversation. I would have to say the child is fine... but I'm not so sure about the mother...

Yes... welcome, Jill... and anyone else who has recently joined us out in the open! ;-)

Maybe it's just media hype to distract, but it sure seems like every religious wackadoodle on the planet suddenly has the spotlight.

And I would wholeheartedly agree with Labrea... though I don't understand it one bit... cherry picking, indeed! What's the point if you're only going to follow the parts you like and throw out the rest?

    Bookmark   February 28, 2012 at 12:51AM
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patriciae_gw(07)

But wait-in vitro (IVF) and artificial insemination are not the same thing-artificial insemination is the insertion of sperm into the woman artificially( sans penis) and conception takes place inside the woman where as IVF is done in a petrie dish. With AI the sperm can be donor sperm so not the sperm of the married couple..as I have always understood the Catholic church has always been against this procedure as well??

    Bookmark   February 28, 2012 at 1:58PM
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hamiltongardener(CAN 6a)

But wait-in vitro (IVF) and artificial insemination are not the same thing-artificial insemination is the insertion of sperm into the woman artificially( sans penis) and conception takes place inside the woman where as IVF is done in a petrie dish. With AI the sperm can be donor sperm so not the sperm of the married couple..as I have always understood the Catholic church has always been against this procedure as well??

I'll copy what I posted above...

the Catholic prohibition is on artificial insemination, in other words the fertilization of an egg outside of a woman's body or delivery of sperm through artificial means.

That includes both IVF and AI.

So which part were you unsure of?

    Bookmark   February 28, 2012 at 2:27PM
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patriciae_gw(07)

Sorry HG...I am having connection problems and it is affecting my ability to scroll. I apparently did not read the whole post. I am continually preplexed by the stand of the Catholic church on fertility. I suspect like geocentrism they will find themselves appologizing some day for taking archaic stances on things.

    Bookmark   February 28, 2012 at 3:02PM
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hamiltongardener(CAN 6a)

I suspect like geocentrism they will find themselves appologizing some day for taking archaic stances on things.

Most likely, yes. And I suspect sometime soon.

Like most religions, Catholic attendance (and therefore donations) is dropping. They will need to start connecting to their congregations more or face losing them.

Adapt or die.

    Bookmark   February 28, 2012 at 4:01PM
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dockside_gw

O.T. but - I was reading a blog yesterday, written by a self-described conservative Catholic priest about contraception, trying to get an understanding of the Catholic church's prohibitions. (I didn't.) This priest said that, according to Pope Pius VI in 1968 (I believe this is the correct pope) in his encyclical (can't remember nor spell the Latin name), infertile married couples are forbidden from using a condom to prevent a STD. This is insane. No wonder I run into so many "recovering Catholics". The church would prefer that a person get a disease, usually incurable, from their spouse rather than "interfering" with the natural process of sexual intercourse.

    Bookmark   February 28, 2012 at 4:21PM
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mylab123(z5NW)

I believe that 99 percent of religions have the circus in the background that is hidden from view if possible. It's why the nutty side of the Mormon churchthat has been uncovered dosn't bother me a bit.

What's new about that Name me a church that doesn't have it's circus going on in the background.....just dig long enough, you will find it.

The Catholic church makes the Mormon church sound boring, childish and completely unoriginal in their nutty stuff.

    Bookmark   February 29, 2012 at 2:34AM
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