variegation again -- Butterfly vs. Beni Schichihenge

amazindirt(7A mid-TN)January 17, 2008

Hey guys --

I'm going to be buying several baby JMs over the next few days. I haven't quite decided on exactly which, but the group will probably include most of the following: Aka Shigitatsu Sawa, Ukigumo, Toyoma Nishiki, Goshiki kotohime, Oridono Nishiki, and Peaches and Cream.

My question -- should I also purchase Butterfly? I already have Beni Shichihenge. Is there enough difference between them to make it worth buying Butterfly as well? Or if I have Beni S., would Butterfly basically be redundant?

Any input would be welcomed. Thanks in advance!

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mattlwfowler

I think it depends on which form of 'butterfly' you get. There are at least two forms, and perhaps variations on them. One form is very similar to 'beni shichihenge' but with less orange in the spring growth, the other form has more variegation and the creamy white colors are a bit different. I believe this second form is a bit more compact and twiggy, which is a bit different from 'beni shichihenge' as well.

This second form I think is worth having since it is quite different. I believe it may be a renaming of 'kocho nishiki' from japan (which in fact means variegated butterfly), but I wouldn't bet a dime on that I could be mixing them up.

Here is a picture of the two side by side:
[IMG/]http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t161/mattlwfowler/bothbutterfly7-3-07.jpg[/IMG]

Below is a thread that shows a bit of the differences.

Here is a link that might be useful: http://www.ubcbotanicalgarden.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2844

    Bookmark   January 17, 2008 at 5:16PM
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myersphcf(z6a IL)

Thats a nice comp photo Matt ..which one is which ?? ;>) I would say buying many cultivars that are similar is basically a professional thing ...meaning if you are a true afficianato/ collector and have unlimited space then go for it otherwise pick your own depending on availabitlity price and quality and size......There may be several hundred uniquely differnt JM cultivars many originated in JA ...some of which are site and area sensitive ....there are literally many hundreds more that are not that much differnt or special form older tried and true varieties including many new varieties that are not tried and true and would be best left alone IMHO.or for thiose with tons of space money and or addiction .David

    Bookmark   January 17, 2008 at 7:45PM
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gardengal48

I have to agree with David. Personally, I think you are looking at a lot of redundancy with the selections you have chosen. Some of them are very similar in appearance - I see no real reason to have both Ukigumo and Orido Nishiki and Aka Shigitatsu Sawa and Peaches and Cream. Unless you are a diehard collector, I think you might want to expand your selection to include less of the variegated/heavily veined forms and more cultivars that offer some distinctly unique features.

But that's just my opinion :-))

    Bookmark   January 17, 2008 at 8:05PM
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myersphcf(z6a IL)

Of those cultivars I love the Oridono nishiki ...even though it has variable variegation.from branch to branch.leaf to leaf.It is super hardy "somewhat" heat and sun resistant ( for a variegate) and had nice winter branch coloring and grows FAST...The Ukigumo is a really cool hardy tree but I personally have at times thought the photos I see of the variegation on line are from another planet ... Mine hasn't come close (yet)and has tended to be more sand dusted ... and others have said the same.

Again the Peaches & Cream is a nice plant but the Aka shigitasu sawa is super hardy beautiful even when not showing variegation ( mine in mid summer) and takes heat well an all around winner that leafs out late great for northern realms...again alot of this is persoanl and area preference ....But those are my thoughts ..

.All variegates are site picky ...you really need alot of afternoon shade for them so if you are in a new suberb or have limited space you may have a hard time siting too many of these ..

.Jm's in general ,as most know, benifit from afternoon shade so if you have a large collection this is a "fight of cultivars" and if your variegates take up all yor primo space you may not have room for all those other wonderful non vaiegated trees...It's a real problem for all of us and I would guess be a monsterous problem down south if it is a somewhat bad problem for us northeners!! And as we all know we all plant to close even though as we dig the hole we know we shouldn't ...we do anyway ;>) I guess that gives us something to do down the road with that spare shovel ;>00000 David

    Bookmark   January 17, 2008 at 9:34PM
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amazindirt(7A mid-TN)

Thanks for all the input, guys!

I should probably have explained -- I'm a variegated plant addict. I like JM's, but I LOVE variegates. I have plenty of shade, and I do most of my growing in containers -- so I can move plants around til I find the best spots.

I like the plants on my list first because the photos impressed me, second because they present at least three or four distinct types of variegation, third because I *believe* (unless I've forgotten one somewhere) all are at least reasonably adaptable to containers. I already have several non-variegated JMs (Berry Dwarf, Hubb's Red Willow, Okushimo, Sango Kaku, Shaina, Villa Taranto, unnamed green dissectum), and now it's time to expand my variegated selection. :-) BUT I've never seen any of these in person, so the more input I can get the better!

    Bookmark   January 17, 2008 at 9:58PM
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amazindirt(7A mid-TN)

Oh, and btw Matt --

Yep, I saw that thread earlier today. I LOVE the version shown with all that white! (link below)

Unfortunately, I am buying these plants online and as VERY young grafts, so I won't know which version this Butterfly will be for a good while yet. But I'd love to have the super-white one!

Here is a link that might be useful: extremely variegated Butterfly

    Bookmark   January 17, 2008 at 10:04PM
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dansgrdn

amazindirt, my advice would be to make your own way as far as Japanese maples go. I personally like 'Beni shichihengi' better and don't have butterfly. Though I wouldn't scoff at butterfly either. Here is my favorite A.p. 'B.s.' pic from my garden.

The rest are different enough to me, where I 'd say ,if you like variegates go for it!
Here's a Aka shigatsu sawa pic:


Have fun and good luck! Dan

    Bookmark   January 18, 2008 at 1:40AM
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amazindirt(7A mid-TN)

Oooo, I love the pink on your B.s.! I may have to move mine into more sun to get more of that color out of it. :-)

And that's a pretty little golden full moon in the background of your pic. I had one until this summer, but the poor thing didn't make it through our super-hot-super-dry summer. In fact, I lost two JMs this year -- a Viridis got killed by the record-breaking April freeze, then the full moon by the summer. Sigh. It's always something!

    Bookmark   January 18, 2008 at 2:18AM
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dansgrdn

I'm going to spellcheck myself. It should have been Aka shigitatsu sawa. Somehow I got that one in my brain wrong initially and always misspell it. Dan

    Bookmark   January 18, 2008 at 9:45AM
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amazindirt(7A mid-TN)

That's okay, I knew what you meant! :-)

    Bookmark   January 18, 2008 at 10:40AM
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ic_conifers

Dan - I hope my Beni schichihenge looks like yours in a few years! Gorgeous!!!

Elizabeth

    Bookmark   January 18, 2008 at 6:09PM
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