Do you think the revelations from RI Superior Court's unsealed records are THE why, or just ONE why?
Amazing that the press was able to get this unsealed. (Maybe there IS a god! Maybe 'Journalism' lives.)
Chisue, will you share what you are talking about?
Well, I have it on good authority (Yahoo.com) that the Pope resigned because when he did his last trip (to Mexico), he banged his head and bled on the rug and bed.
He was in a strange convent, groping around in the dark, supposedly looking for the bathroom....hummmmmmm
Um--I don't know what this thread is referring to also. Anyone care to explain? : )
Here ya' go, I posted the link in the thread "the pope resigns", the following is what the OP refers to.
Here is a link that might be useful: source of course
Thank you, ohio. I have to admit that I dont' normally follow news on the papacy.
It's better than claiming, "I don't recall", and refusing to leave office.
It's okay not to recall at his age. Ask Marshall. :)
Well, he might not recall several things after that bump on the head.
This was something I was wondering, as well. I'd heard that he was involved in the church's cover up of the priest scandals, and wondered if it may be coming back to haunt him, and rather than drag the church down any further, "retired".
Edited to remove double post.
This post was edited by althea on Sun, Feb 17, 13 at 12:07
Maybe fighting battles at 85 is just too much. Too much for most of us, I would imagine.
The church (all of them) need to do some serious soul-searching, and make some long overdue (millennial) and much needed changes.
Churches should be living, growing, changing institutions, and they aren't. Religion, in general, is becoming irrelevant in western life, and there may be no way to change that, but they should at least try. Under these circumstances, good riddance.
Here is a link that might be useful: Link
He's not retiring to A Palace Cathedral or Basilica.
Cloistered for a man who ha been a major player for years is some ending & smacks of the penitent.
Unlike Roger in Los Angeles
"Given all of the storms that have surrounded me and the Archdiocese of Los Angeles recently, God's grace finally helped me to understand: I am not being called to serve Jesus in humility. Rather, I am being called to something deeper--to be humiliated, disgraced, and rebuffed by many.
I was not ready for this challenge. Ash Wednesday changed all of that, and I see Lent 2013 as a special time to reflect deeply upon this special call by Jesus. To be honest with you, I have not reached the point where I can actually pray for more humiliation. I'm only at the stage of asking for the grace to endure the level of humiliation at the moment.
In the past several days, I have experienced many examples of being humiliated. In recent days, I have been confronted in various places by very unhappy people. I could understand the depth of their anger and outrage--at me, at the Church, at about injustices that swirl around us. Thanks to God's special grace, I simply stood there, asking God to bless and forgive them."
This is hubris in extreme! Spiritual S&M & Narcissism all rolled into one.
"It's all about me"
There is quite a bit of this in this organization and always has been..
Thank you, Ohio. Reading that makes my teeth hurt. Ouch.
I have no idea why the corporate news isn't simply stating that the Pope is too old and frail to handle the raft of scandals weighing down on his shoulders, and his flock is screaming about moving out of the 15th century into the 21st century - and if the church does that, they immediately become irrelevant.
I challenge anyone to shoulder that burden. Can't be done.
Churches should be living, growing, changing institutions
DH and I are members of an "evolving" church, which is of the United Church of Christ denomination where each individual church is autonomous about how it worships, believes, and practices its faith. We could not be members of any other church. It recognizes the beliefs and practices of Christianity as its foundation but has evolved beyond many of them, but still attempts to follow Christ's teachings of love your neighbor as yourself, etc. I have learned and grown so much in coming to finally recognize my core beliefs.
But, I don't expect the Pope or the rest of the hierarchy to change. That would be radical and the church would have to divest itself of its tremendous riches and the hierarchy of its power.
I think it is so much more than age or the frailty of this particular Pontiff. Not only the head of the Church, but the main "boy" in an old boys' club that somehow thought it immune from having to deal with abuse and/or keeping up with changing social issues and needs. And it's likely that the next Pope will be cut from exactly the same cloth. More's the pity.
dimitte nobis debita nostra
An ex-Pope walled up in a Vatican apartment daring not to step out for fear of prosecution for crimes against humanity is so medieval. So far removed yet too close for some to seek his "wise counsel'.
This is interesting:
"It's not only the facts of the abuse but the way that the church deepened the harm in sometimes irreparable ways."
According to the document filed by CCR, the pope, as head of the Catholic church, is ultimately responsible for the sexual abuse of children by priests and for the cover-ups of that abuse. The group argues that he and others have "direct and superior responsibility" for the crimes of those ranked below them, similar to a military chain of command.
The others named in the complaint are Angelo Sodano, dean of the College of Cardinals and former Vatican secretary of state; Cardinal Tarcissio Bertone, now secretary of state, who previously served at the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (CDF), the organisation tasked with handling sexual abuse cases under the pope when he was Cardinal Ratzinger; and Cardinal William Lavada, head of the CDF, whose handling of previous sexual abuse cases has been criticised in the past.
Here is a link that might be useful: Such a state of affairs
Thanks to God's special grace, I simply stood there, asking God to bless and forgive them."
The once papabile cardinal knew what he was doing at the time he was doing it.
Yesterday's LAT had reprinted sections of letters from Mahoney to the Vatican trying to have a priest defrocked. Recommendation was to have the abuser leave the clergy, but abuser appealed to the Vatican... and there the matter stood for years and years. Mahoney sent various letters and even a fax, but received no concrete answer. At the time Cardinal Ratzinger had too few resources to timely examine the complaints regarding molestaters and abusers. Not that he rushed to improve the review process; just a shrug of the shoulders and a we'll-get-to-it-when-we-can attitude.
There is so much mud to throw at so many people, and all deserves to stick.
The information that came to light when Cardinal Ratzinger replaced John Paul II is still the most damning imo. All the subsequent silence and dissembling stem from those orders.
Do all these cretins at the upper levels have immunity from prosecution because of legate/ambassadorial rank? This is close to being a criminal enterprise practicing a wide ranging conspiracy going back years and years. The RC laity would not stand for widespread prosecution of Bishops and higher orders.
I'm amazed at the lack of further coverage on this story. If I hadn't seen it on Yahoo online, I don't think *I* would have seen il either!
I spoke to our DS yesterday by phone and mentioned this. News to him. Most people are still guessing about the papal resignation. Well...duh, here is reason enough.
Today's Sunday Chicago Tribune has lengthy treatments on various popes, and a long treatment about the changing racial makeup of mass attendees in various parishes -- and *nothing* on this.
Is anyone's local media covering this scandal? Has the Vatican preempted everything with the "Pope Resigns" announcement?
This is close to being a criminal enterprise practicing a wide ranging conspiracy going back years and years.
I've said for years (one of the reasons I renounced my RC faith) that as much as I believe in Catholicism, the Roman Catholic Church is nothing more, nothing less, than the most profitable corporation in the world. EVERYTHING they do, is based on money. From charging a "donation" for any services rendered (they can't legally charge a fee, because then it becomes income, so it's a "required donation"), to closing churches in depressed areas, forcing people with no way to get around, to go across town to go to church, simply because the church isn't bringing in enough money. I could go on and on about this and other things I've seen as a very active parishoner. I look back on it, and it makes me sick.
Will the world look at the Papacy as a job rather than some perhaps divinely inspired, guided by the Holy Spirit ambassadorial appointment? Maybe it is because now we see when the going gets tough, well, it's time to go. And I don't see his stepping down as the consummate act of humility - as was played up in some quarters.
From the link below:
"Some parts of the mainstream media donÃ¢ÂÂt do God and donÃ¢ÂÂt understand people who do. They see everything through the prism of politics - presuming that Christians fall into camps of Left and Right, that Bible-talk is ideological slang or that the tenets of faith are up for negotiation in the same way that party platforms are easily forgotten by the hucksters who ran on them. Some journalists need a crash course in Christianity."
Here is a link that might be useful: Another interesting link from telegraph.co.uk
Will the world look at the Papacy as a job rather than some perhaps divinely inspired, guided by the Holy Spirit ambassadorial appointment?
He's a CEO, appointed by his Board of Directors. Nothing more, nothing less.
Vatican bank scandal! Sorry he's cloistered & not available for comment,
Thousands of pages of documents across his desk speaking of the problems of Bishops on what can we do with Fr whats his name & rarely so rarely defrock the frocker!
Rev. Lawrence C. Murphy subject of Mea Culpa Documentary the scandal of defrocking seemed worse than the abuse of deaf boys.
Maciel dies in Florida a luxurious residence of the Legion he founded. He refused last rites & confession in the end. he left behind trust funds for one of hist mistresses & his children. One in England one in Switzerland several in Mexico..
He lost his ministry but was never defrocked.
How many CEO's can you think of who willngly stepped aside for the good of the corporation? I'm not saying "the good" of the corporation and not some personal butt saving wasn't a prime mover here. Or that the move illustrates someone who (like many a corporate CEO) wasn't ultimately above being beholden only to himself.
According to the doctrine of Papal Supremacy, the Pope by reason of his office enjoys "supreme, full, immediate, and universal power" over the souls of 1.2 billion Catholics around the world. (Wiki)
As the Vicar of Christ, his is the final word on life's most personal decisions - including birth control, abortion, marriage, and euthanasia. Lots of dissent here. Not to overlook the fact that as the leader of Vatican City, he's also a head of state.
Maybe there'll be a last gasp someday, but I'm still clinging to some vestiges of the faith I was born into and willingly accepted. What and why I cling to tatters is a complex mystery to me and one that, in all my years, I've really not been able to fathom. I see value in an unbroken succession going back two thousand years. But does it need to take a giant leap of a few centuries into a modern world filled with people with modern problems and concerns? You bet. And it'll take more than a Twitter account to do it.
How many CEO's can you think of who willngly stepped aside for the good of the corporation?
I'd be willing to bet BIGTIME that no matter WHAT the Vatican says, he did NOT step aside willingly. He did it because he knew that one way or the other he was gone, anyway.
I can hardly stand to think about the abuses so many have suffered at not just this latest bunch of immoral crooks but how it has been this way all through the centuries. IF (a big if, imo) any of these people actually believe in a God who demands a certain criteria of behavior from human beings, are none of them at all worried regarding their future in the hereafter?
If they believe in the teachings of God as they have always outlined- while indulging this behavior and cover up (always for personal gain of some kind) then surely they must be worried.
Given the ages of so many, including the Pope, judgement day draws ever closer.
No Sodano won he knew where all the bodies were buried for years. Ratzinger whacked Maciel & his ultra conservative money machine in turn Sodano whacked Ratzingers head of the Vatican Bank.
It looks like the insiders knew how ill he was it's said Sodano has been trying to put his people in place before the Pope Kicks! This is going back to last to last Spring!
This post was edited by labrea on Mon, Feb 18, 13 at 17:47
Ecclesiastic Mafia, another version of E.M. (Effective Microbes)
I concur with Bill... and I highly doubt the pope is "willingly" stepping down for the good of the catholic corporation slash brand name... I would rather think it's been heavily "suggested" that he step down... and to the pope, what better timing, anyway?
I still differ in thinking about the Pope stepping down. I said before it was no great act of humility on his part. I believe the good of Benedict outweighed the good of the Church at every turn.
I further think Benedict's work was "done". Sort of like being a caretaker Pope, he had the time to stack the deck with conservative Cardinals who would elect a new Pope to continue on in exactly the same vein. We won't see any change in dealing with abuse, no easing of the stance on birth control, no being open to engage in dialogue with nuns - or women in general to participate more fully in the Church.
While the Vatican is mired in intrigue, I doubt he was pushed out with strong urgings or even threats. He wrestled with his own mind and copped a plea with himself for himself.
I still differ in thinking about the Pope stepping down.
I agree with duluth's points.
he had the time to stack the deck with conservative Cardinals
Both he and John Paul II stacked the deck, and did their best to rid the Church of liberation theologists.
Also, the last years of John Paul II, when he insisted on carrying out the ceremonial duties of the Papacy despite his deteriorating health, would be a powerful reminder of what not to do. While visiting relatives, I saw part of a broadcast of John Paul in Naples with images of the Pontiff that are usually restricted to nursing homes. The cameramen tried to avoid showing the troubling image, but when no one was coming to the aid of the Pope, they had little choice but to show his humiliating physical decline.