howl weep & tear your clothes

labrea_gwFebruary 18, 2013

"Barack Obama will receive one of Israel's most prestigious honours during his upcoming visit to the Middle East. On Monday, the office of the Israeli president, Shimon Peres, announced that Obama will be given the presidential medal of distinction in March.

A statement said that the honour recognised Obama's "unique and significant contribution to strengthening the State of Israel and the security of its citizens".

Obama's political opponents have complained constantly that he has attempted to distance the US from its traditional support of Israel. In the lead up to the presidential election last year the Republican challenger, Mitt Romney, accused Obama of "repeated efforts" to "throw Israel under the bus". Obama's pick for defence secretary has also been criticised, due to comments allegedly made by Chuck Hagel regarding the power of the pro-Israeli lobby in Washington.

Obama's White House has always maintained its support for Israel, but the president has had a tense relationship with the Israeli prime minister, Binyamin Netanyahu, particularly regarding West Bank settlements and the lack of a peace process with the Palestinians.

Peres and the committee behind the award noted Obama's overall friendship and backing of the Iron Dome missile defence system. Obama's visit to Israel will be his first as president."
I think this is the point where the yahoos talk about OBAMA worshipers. Oh but how can that be form someone who has no problem criticizing him.
LOL

Let tradition stand. Just say nothing!

The follow up comments to the article are fun

Here is a link that might be useful: A Sand Job

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mylab123(z5NW)

Ooohh, this amuse bouche of information is going to boil some blood in here, even if that reaction not acknowledged, we know it will!

Howling and weeping?...ok.
I can understand that in the frustration of it all.
Things just aren't turning out like they were supposed to, like some foxy people promised it would.

But with the prices for decent clothing these days?
I'd advise changing into the oldest 'house painting/digging in the garden' you have before the tearing of the clothing commences! Then, hey - have at it!

    Bookmark   February 19, 2013 at 1:29AM
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littleonefb

Just goes to show that the GOP is so out of touch with reality that it is really very, very frightening.

Not only are they out of touch with the majority of the electorate in this country, but they are totally out of touch with what our allies think as well.

All the "mud throwing" absurd claims about Obama and his support/lack of support for the State of Israel, was nothing more than hot air spouting out of the mouths of the opposition.

Obviously, that spouting was nothing but lies and fortunately the electorate didn't believe the absurd lies coming out of the GOP.

But this one has got to hurt and hurt very badly.

So much for "throwing Israel under the Bus"

If it wasn't so pathetic, it might actually be funny.

And apparently the State of Israel doesn't agree with the idiocy of the GOP either.

Now whom will we hear from first? Anyone taking bets on which GOP in DC will say something about this first?

And who will be the first GOP member on HT to make a comment on this thread, or will they just say the typical silent?

    Bookmark   February 19, 2013 at 1:44AM
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RpR_(3-4)

Well that puts him right up there with Al Gore's Nobel Peace Prize.

Now if Obama had not been so impatient to give Peres a medal last year, they could have exchanged medals during the ceremony.

This post was edited by RpR_ on Tue, Feb 19, 13 at 3:22

    Bookmark   February 19, 2013 at 1:45AM
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youngquinn_gw

well that will look nice on the mantlepiece along with the Nobel Peace prize.

    Bookmark   February 19, 2013 at 1:46AM
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sable_ca(z9CA)

"...amuse bouche..." ?

Perfectly used!

    Bookmark   February 19, 2013 at 2:22AM
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tobr24u(z6 RI)

You should see my medals...

    Bookmark   February 19, 2013 at 5:18AM
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dublinbay z6 (KS)

I tried to read the attached comments, but right off the bat, three of them were deleted by the powers-that-be. Now I'm curious as to what was said that was so horrible that thre in a row got deleted. Hmmmm.

I'm glad for the sake of U.S.-Israeli relations that the award was given, but I must confess that I have no idea what Obama did to earn it.

Kate

    Bookmark   February 19, 2013 at 7:57AM
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mrskjun(9)

Looks like everyone doesn't agree on the prestige of this medal. Myself..I don't know.

Here is a link that might be useful: link

    Bookmark   February 19, 2013 at 8:44AM
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chase_gw

Well it's clear this very conservative source doesn't...........otherwise I bet they are very supportive of the President.....not.

For my part I think It may be more about showing the world, especially Iran, that the bond between the US and Israel is strong.

    Bookmark   February 19, 2013 at 8:50AM
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jodik_gw

"Not only are they out of touch with the majority of the electorate in this country, but they are totally out of touch with what our allies think as well."

I think that sums it up quite well.

    Bookmark   February 19, 2013 at 8:55AM
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epiphyticlvr

Looks like everyone doesn't agree on the prestige of this medal.

I guess it all depends on the lens one is viewing it through and ones feelings about Israel to determine its esteem.

In this case the President is bestowing the highest civilian award of that country to Obama. This is tantamount to America's Medal of Freedom which is the highest civilian honor in America. Is that not prestigious enough for you?

President Shimon Peres will honor US President Barack Obama with Israel’s highest civilian award, the Presidential Medal of Distinction, just as Obama conferred the Presidential Medal of Freedom, America’s highest civilian award, on Peres at a presidential dinner in Washington in June.

    Bookmark   February 19, 2013 at 10:40AM
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david52_gw

Bu bu but he went and nominated Hagel as sec. of Defense.

How can this be?

    Bookmark   February 19, 2013 at 10:46AM
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marshallz10(z9-10 CA)

There has to be a conspiracy in there somewhere. The two presidents exchanging medals for no apparent reason other than geopolitical ones smacks of hidden agendas soon to be exposed by bimbos and bimbas and bubbas at FOX.

    Bookmark   February 19, 2013 at 10:52AM
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mrskjun(9)

Considering he received the Nobel Peace Prize...not much would surprise me.

    Bookmark   February 19, 2013 at 10:53AM
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demifloyd(8)

Posted by mrskjun 9 (My Page) on
Tue, Feb 19, 13 at 10:53

Considering he received the Nobel Peace Prize...not much would surprise me.

*

Ditto.

It's chuckle worthy.

Nothing to see here, time to move along.

    Bookmark   February 19, 2013 at 11:11AM
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labrea_gw

Ah the twins & I agree after receiving the Peace Prize nothing surprises me.

    Bookmark   February 19, 2013 at 11:20AM
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chase_gw

Whatever the reason they are bestowing the medal....Peres has a reason.

Too bad some can't involve themselves in a discussion on what they think that reason may be or ignore the thread if they have nothing to offer.

Sarcastic one liners, that add nothing to the discussion , serve no purpose except to contribute to, or reinforce, the perception one may have of the poster.

    Bookmark   February 19, 2013 at 11:24AM
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marquest(z5 PA)

President Obama is respected around the world regardless of what we hear from the echo chambers of the right wing media.

I am so happy the majority of America realized for our safety as a country we needed a President that is respected around the world. Romney's build hate as he went around the world during the campaign was obvious what would have happened if he was elected. A man that could anger that many countries campaigning in two weeks was not going to turn out good for America..

    Bookmark   February 19, 2013 at 11:30AM
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mylab123(z5NW)

Marquest, thank goodness you and I don't have that scenario to have to discuss in hot topics because it was Obama, instead, who of the two was chosen to be our President by the majority of American voters.

Instead we can be pleased that the leader and representative of the people of our country was awarded a meaningless little tin medal from the country which apparently - according to lots of conservatives along with that guy they voted for- is currently located under a bus

    Bookmark   February 19, 2013 at 12:03PM
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demifloyd(8)

Posted by chase z6 (My Page) on
Tue, Feb 19, 13 at 11:24

Too bad some can't involve themselves in a discussion on what they think that reason may be or ignore the thread if they have nothing to offer.

Sarcastic one liners, that add nothing to the discussion , serve no purpose except to contribute to, or reinforce, the perception one may have of the poster.

*

Oh, but wouldn't it fun for you to have only sarcastic oneliners by the usual players on the left?

You know, the ones you don't object to.
Balance, Chase--balance and equal opportunity posting.

Opinions on Obama getting a medal for any reason--
except without the vitriol and insults directed at particular posters, as is exhibited from some left leaning posters towards conservative posters who only give their opinions.

    Bookmark   February 19, 2013 at 12:10PM
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dublinbay z6 (KS)

Well, I wouldn't want to have missed labrea's great line: "smacks of hidden agendas soon to be exposed by bimbos and bimbas and bubbas at FOX."

Bimbos and bimbas and bubbas--I laughed out loud!

Let me try a stab at reasons why Israel's president decided to give Obama the award.

Since Obama is trying to appoint Hagel and Hagel and Obama have made clear that they support Israel AND Palestine (not one over the other), perhaps Israel's president is recognizing the role Obama has been playing in trying to dampen down the hot tensions in the area. And it may be that Israel's president and PM do not exactly see eye to eye on all matters--and the president is taking our president's side in the matter?

I dont' really know--just trying to make an intelligent guess, since even Israel knows that doing it just to curry favor with the U.S. is just too, too cynical for most oberservers. Maybe.

Kate

    Bookmark   February 19, 2013 at 12:31PM
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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Netanyahu backed the loser in 2012.

Time to make nice to the winner.

    Bookmark   February 19, 2013 at 12:37PM
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jillinnj

Nothing to see here, time to move along.

When were you appointed the leader of HT who gets to decide what topics are discussed? I must have missed the memo.

Funny, something that some (like the world) might consider a good thing about Obama and it's time to move along. But, when it's made up crap about the President, oh, well you're all over that. Interesting, interesting. But not surprising.

    Bookmark   February 19, 2013 at 12:39PM
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chase_gw

My thought on sarcastic one liners is applied to everyone....even myself.

The day you call out some conservatives here for the incredulous things they say is the day you can lecture me.

    Bookmark   February 19, 2013 at 12:47PM
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mylab123(z5NW)

Off topic!
Chase, I just read where you are going on a lovely, exotic sounding vacation - have a wonderful time and tell us all about it if you are so inclined- here if you can make it a hot topic or start a thread you can add to over in Conversations - would love to hear about it! The most we can hope for this year probably a handful of days with some friends at either Jackson Hole or Sun Valley, depending upon work schedules which are still being detailed. Though not far away by any means, Im still beyond excited since we all will be staying with mutual friends and our dogs were specifically invited. Not an exotic, far away locale but good enough for moi* LOL*
Details, we want details - if you are willing o course.

Now, back to your regularly scheduled program......

    Bookmark   February 19, 2013 at 12:48PM
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Factotem

demifloyd wrote,

Nothing to see here, time to move along.

Promises, promises...

    Bookmark   February 19, 2013 at 1:04PM
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marshallz10(z9-10 CA)

Kate, that was my one liner, me trying to emulate my guru Joe.

    Bookmark   February 19, 2013 at 1:12PM
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jillinnj

Details, we want details - if you are willing o course.

I second that!

Some of us will have to live vicarously through you, chase, for the next year or so (planning a wedding! no vacations other than son's baseball tournaments allowed). Beach photos will also be appreciated :-)

    Bookmark   February 19, 2013 at 2:01PM
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demifloyd(8)

Posted by chase z6 (My Page) on
Tue, Feb 19, 13 at 12:47

My thought on sarcastic one liners is applied to everyone....even myself.

The day you call out some conservatives here for the incredulous things they say is the day you can lecture me.

*

Ditto,Chase!

Just exchange "conservatives" for "liberals" and remember that YOU are the one that started it.

    Bookmark   February 19, 2013 at 2:42PM
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chase_gw

Not working.......

I have called out liberals often. Very often and even in defense of you on occasion.

Now , do you have any opinion on why Israel may be bestowing this honor on the President?

This post was edited by chase on Tue, Feb 19, 13 at 16:31

    Bookmark   February 19, 2013 at 4:25PM
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demifloyd(8)

RE: Murdoch rag praises Obama

Posted by jillinnj (My Page) on
Mon, Feb 18, 13 at 14:5

And why do you think we care that you're going out, or have been out all day, or whatever it is you like to tell us? Very strange.

*

Posted by jillinnj (My Page) on
Tue, Feb 19, 13 at 14:01

"Details, we want details - if you are willing o course.

I second that!
"Some of us will have to live vicarously "(SIC) "through you, chase, for the next year or so (planning a wedding! no vacations other than son's baseball tournaments allowed). Beach photos will also be appreciated :-)"

*

And why do you think we care what you have to live vicariously through, what weddings you are planning, about
your vacations or your son's baseball tournaments, and what pictures you want to look at?

*

What hypocrisy, jillinnhj--you chide me for what the very thing you turn around and do much more of the next day.

To quote you, "very strange."

    Bookmark   February 19, 2013 at 5:13PM
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labrea_gw

FLUSH!
can we get on with the topic!

    Bookmark   February 19, 2013 at 5:18PM
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demifloyd(8)

Yea, on with it.

It's a shame you don't call flush with the ones that make the initial deposit.

Wastes a lot of time.

    Bookmark   February 19, 2013 at 5:23PM
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Factotem

demifloyd wrote,

And why do you think we care what you have to live vicariously through, what weddings you are planning, about
your vacations or your son's baseball tournaments, and what pictures you want to look at?

*

What hypocrisy, jillinnhj [sic]--you chide me for what the very thing you turn around and do much more of the next day.

To quote you, "very strange."

First, congratulations to jillinnj on the upcoming wedding, and I hope your son hits a grand slam!

It seems to me that jillinnj is explaining why she is longing to experience a tropical vacation, even if it is someone else's. Providing that background is qualitatively different from gratuitously dropping information about one's daily doings (walks, ingestion of oyster crackers, transporting of relatives. etc.), which are plumped as being a superior use of time to reading or posting here (due in large measure to some perceived victimization). Quite different, actually.

    Bookmark   February 19, 2013 at 5:35PM
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jillinnj

It seems to me that jillinnj is explaining why she is longing to experience a tropical vacation, even if it is someone else's. Providing that background is qualitatively different from gratuitously dropping information about one's daily doings (walks, ingestion of oyster crackers, transporting of relatives. etc.), which are plumped as being a superior use of time to reading or posting here (due in large measure to some perceived victimization). Quite different, actually. (emphasis mine)

Ya think? Well, only to those not obsessed with themselves.

And able to think clearly.

    Bookmark   February 19, 2013 at 5:57PM
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demifloyd(8)

No, it's not different.

But I do understand jillinnj's obsession with posting insults and taunts about me and to me now.

Others conjure images of an orange dusted keyboard in mother's basement.

    Bookmark   February 19, 2013 at 6:22PM
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marquest(z5 PA)

Well since I expressed why I think Obama is getting the award I want to say as the toilet flushes.......

Chase please share. I have not wanted to leave home yet I traveled so much for my job I am still enjoying not getting on another plane. Besides someone might slap me when I start crying. But even though I do not want to go anywhere I sure do enjoy hearing and seeing other people's adventures.

    Bookmark   February 19, 2013 at 6:24PM
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jillinnj

No, it's not different

Oh I'm quite sure you're capable of understanding the difference. But if you admitted that, what would you have left?

I'm pretty sure you declared in the past that I was a scroll on by...just another thing you've declared that is not to be believed.

    Bookmark   February 19, 2013 at 6:28PM
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Factotem

demifloyd wrote,

posting insults and taunts about me and to me now.

immediately followed by,

Others conjure images of an orange dusted keyboard in mother's basement.

Now that is some short-cycle hypocrisy, eh? It's like Dr. Jekyll and Ms. Floyd...

    Bookmark   February 19, 2013 at 6:38PM
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elvis

Chase: "For my part I think It may be more about showing the world, especially Iran, that the bond between the US and Israel is strong."

"Whatever the reason they are bestowing the medal....Peres has a reason."

Yup; I think Chase hit it right there.

--------

Kate: "Well, I wouldn't want to have missed labrea's great line: "smacks of hidden agendas soon to be exposed by bimbos and bimbas and bubbas at FOX."

This line of Labrea's is also very good: "Ah the twins & I agree after receiving the Peace Prize nothing surprises me."

------
Nancy: "Netanyahu backed the loser in 2012.
Time to make nice to the winner."

Sounds true.

_

So based on the opinions that ring true to me, IMO the reason is:

1. Peres has a reason.
2. Wants to demonstrate to world that Israel & U.S. have a strong bond (it's in our mutual interest to do that).
3. Fox will have fun with it and that will in turn be fun to watch.
4. Why not? he got the Nobel Peace Prize.
5. To make up for Netanyahu backing Romney in 2012.

    Bookmark   February 19, 2013 at 6:43PM
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epiphyticlvr

IMO, it is a combination of politics, business, and a testament to the long standing relationship between Obama and Peres.

This honor is coming from the president's office, not Bibi's. In Israel they are two, distinct offices. There will always be politics involved considering the players but since Peres' focus is on promoting business, technology, science and other sectors of Israel's economy, this is part of his new push to promote relationships between the countries as well as continue to show support for Obama, Additionally, he represents the people of Israel and this gives him the opportunity to publicly thank Obama for his support over the last years. It is no secret that there is little love between Peres and Netanyahu and no secret that Peres and Obama's close friendship is something that always irked Bibi.

It isn't a coincidence that since this was leaked several weeks ago, many have already started using this as an opportunity to kickstart new ventures.

    Bookmark   February 19, 2013 at 7:49PM
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mrskjun(9)

New ventures hmmm...a weekend of golf with Tiger Woods and the COB of Halliburton.

    Bookmark   February 19, 2013 at 8:04PM
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chase_gw

There we go another thoughtful post that contributes to the discussion and helps explain what the poster thinks the reason for the award might be.

    Bookmark   February 19, 2013 at 8:24PM
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epiphyticlvr

Chase, it's asinine. Some people just can't help it. They lack self-control, and if they have nothing intelligent or of substance to add they resort to trying to shut down the conversation. We see it often from the same few posters.

    Bookmark   February 19, 2013 at 8:42PM
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labrea_gw

What did I miss while I was gone?

    Bookmark   February 19, 2013 at 8:47PM
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elvis

Epi: "...it's asinine. Some people just can't help it. They lack self-control, and if they have nothing intelligent or of substance to add they resort to trying to shut down the conversation. We see it often from the same few posters."

True. You just did it again.

"It isn't a coincidence that since this was leaked several weeks ago, many have already started using this as an opportunity to kickstart new ventures."

Which ventures are those?

    Bookmark   February 19, 2013 at 8:52PM
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youngquinn_gw

"New ventures hmmm...a weekend of golf with Tiger Woods and the COB of Halliburton"
elvis can you tell me perhaps what you think that comment added to the conversation?
(yes I know you didnt say it..kjun did)

    Bookmark   February 19, 2013 at 9:09PM
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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Which ventures are those?

elvis, you stated that you liked working as a paralegal, no?

So surely you know how to research a topic on your own, and don't have to constantly ask for something that you could find by yourself. Unless your motive is to slow down as many discussions as possible.

    Bookmark   February 19, 2013 at 9:14PM
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epiphyticlvr

So surely you know how to research a topic on your own, and don't have to constantly ask for something that you could find by yourself. Unless your motive is to slow down as many discussions as possible.

;)

    Bookmark   February 19, 2013 at 10:06PM
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elvis

YQ: "elvis can you tell me perhaps what you think that comment added to the conversation?
(yes I know you didnt say it..kjun did)"

Can't say. It didn't strike me as anything that warranted comment.

------

Nancy: "...surely you know how to research a topic on your own, and don't have to constantly ask for something that you could find by yourself. Unless your motive is to slow down as many discussions as possible."

I didn't bring it up. Do I harbor a motive to slow down this otherwise fast-paced conversation? C'mon; what do you think. "Constantly"? You don't think you are exaggerating just a bit.

Epi's post in part: "It isn't a coincidence that since this was leaked several weeks ago, many have already started using this as an opportunity to kickstart new ventures."

Since I didn't notice anything upthread that I thought Epi might have been referring to, I asked what Epi was referring to.

When someone says to you: "Look!" and you don't see what they are referring to, if you are interested, you ask. And if they reply: "You figure it out", well that wouldn't be very nice, would it.

    Bookmark   February 19, 2013 at 10:32PM
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labrea_gw

HUH?

    Bookmark   February 20, 2013 at 12:12AM
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mylab123(z5NW)

Oh Joe - that's just Elvis impressing herself yet again with her own well rounded, evenhanded, unbiased position of great wisdom she deigns to offer to us poor, squabbling, misguided souls.

    Bookmark   February 20, 2013 at 12:36AM
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lily316(z5PA)

But Jill, it's obvious she doesn't scroll on by, She's always here with the one liners. Picture Romney being president. I know....shudders. But if he was awarded the Pulitzer prize or the Israeli honor of distinction, the Righties would be shouting from the roof top. Every freaking positive thing that happens to Obama is ridiculed here. The hatred is palpable.

Guess what ,girls...he's here for four more years. Yea!

    Bookmark   February 20, 2013 at 2:53AM
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sleeplessinftwayne(z4-5 IND)

I knew it was a mistake to open this thread. Labrea, you must really be bored. Why must Conservatives on this board respond to this post? Because you said so? Oh, it must really be an important, earth shaking event for a politician to get an award. So unusual.

Come on guys, surely you can do better than this. For example, my snowdrops showed up on February 7. It is the earliest I have seen them here.

    Bookmark   February 20, 2013 at 11:26AM
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mrskjun(9)

My snowdrops and paperwhites are blooming away too sleepless, but my white bearded iris are late.

    Bookmark   February 20, 2013 at 11:53AM
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marquest(z5 PA)

For example, my snowdrops showed up on February 7. It is the earliest I have seen them here.

But sleeplessinftwayne, you could start a topic about Global Warming and the Conservatives that do not believe in science and the signs that support the science topic.

But if you want to talk about garden blooms there are some good Garden forums on HT.

    Bookmark   February 20, 2013 at 11:59AM
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demifloyd(8)

Posted by marquest z5 PA (My Page) on
Wed, Feb 20, 13 at 11:59

For example, my snowdrops showed up on February 7. It is the earliest I have seen them here.

But sleeplessinftwayne, you could start a topic about Global Warming and the Conservatives that do not believe in science and the signs that support the science topic.

But if you want to talk about garden blooms there are some good Garden forums on HT.

*

Sleepless, go to conversations and I'll be glad to talk to you about snowdrops.

Apparently liberals are the only one that can make a human off topic comment--weddings, ball games, and asking for photos, etc.--without being taken to the woodshed for it.

Our present climate changes have not been proven to be attributed to man. It is an interesting topic, and the data is interesting, but not conclusive.

    Bookmark   February 20, 2013 at 12:10PM
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Factotem

demifloyd wrote,

Apparently liberals are the only one that can make a human off topic comment--weddings, ball games, and asking for photos, etc.--without being taken to the woodshed for it.

...and demifloyd previously declared,

I have no stereotype of liberals.

Dr. Jekyll and Mrs. Floyd...

Our present climate changes have not been proven to be attributed to man. It is an interesting topic, and the data is interesting, but not conclusive.

Are you offering your own opinion of the data, in which case some citations would be appropriate, or are you providing the consensus of the scientific community, in which case citations in support of that summary would be needed? A third possibility is that you are merely parroting some institution's position; in that case, which institution is that?

I have a feeling WxDano would be best equipped to address your claim.

    Bookmark   February 20, 2013 at 12:38PM
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labrea_gw

Oh Sleepless you really do resent my posts so often! The easiest thing is to not respond at all.
(Curious you don't come to mind when I chide)
We had crocus & winter aconite very early, the Jasmine nudiflorium bloomed christmas week. All about 4 weeks early. I am really afraid for the magnolias as all the buds swelled in January!

    Bookmark   February 20, 2013 at 12:41PM
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labrea_gw

More matter less artifice!

    Bookmark   February 20, 2013 at 1:00PM
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jillinnj

weddings, ball games, and asking for photos, etc

Wow, for someone that just scrolls on by my posts, you sure do seem to get a lot out of them, now don't you??

Could it be that what you said you were doing was not true?

There's a word for that...

    Bookmark   February 20, 2013 at 1:01PM
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demifloyd(8)

Posted by jillinnj (My Page) on
Wed, Feb 20, 13 at 13:01

weddings, ball games, and asking for photos, etc

Wow, for someone that just scrolls on by my posts, you sure do seem to get a lot out of them, now don't you??

Could it be that what you said you were doing was not true?

There's a word for that...

*

Oh jillinnj, I think you love it!
You never miss an opportunity to say something to me, about me, or to taunt me. Your posts prove that.

You have been posting about me and to me for so long, it was obvious ignoring you didn't diminish your obsession.

You're not the only one that got the attention you wanted.
What can I say? I have felt particularly charitable the last few days.

Enjoy it while the thrill of finally getting a response out of me lasts--like all pleasurable experiences--it doesn't last forever!~

:)

    Bookmark   February 20, 2013 at 1:10PM
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lily316(z5PA)

Told you , Jill. She doesn't scroll on by.

I'm sure there are some in totally isolated places on this planet who still believe the world is flat. That's where the climate change deniers will be in a few years.

    Bookmark   February 20, 2013 at 1:13PM
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demifloyd(8)

Posted by lily316 z5PA (My Page) on
Wed, Feb 20, 13 at 13:13

Told you , Jill. She doesn't scroll on by.

*

If one is insulted and addressed enough without solicitation, one might decide not to scroll on by 100% of the time. It depends on my tolerance for harrassment, Lily!

In any event, it's my call when I post. :)

*

Climate change deniers?

The climate has been changing constantly.

We adapt, or we don't.

It's pretty arrogant to think the world should be what humans want it to be.

It is also arrogant to believe that our actions make much of a difference in the climate or other changes, whether it is to significantly diminish the comfort of our existence here or to significantly enhance it.

    Bookmark   February 20, 2013 at 1:21PM
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Factotem

demifloyd wrote,

Enjoy it while the thrill of finally getting a response out of me lasts--like all pleasurable experiences--it doesn't last forever!

Didn't stick the flounce, I see.

    Bookmark   February 20, 2013 at 1:23PM
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Factotem

demifloyd wrote,

It is also arrogant to believe that our actions make much of a difference in the climate or other changes

How interesting. Your belief is that if science shows something, you can then alter the truth of that finding by applying subjective characterizations, such as whether the finding strikes you as "arrogant".

Some find in-vitro fertilization arrogant. Therefore, it doesn't exist. Dams change the course of rivers; arrogant, thus they don't exist. Humans, breathing underwater? What are they, fish? Scuba is arrogant and therefore nonexistent. Creating new strains of plants by manipulating genes? Very arrogant and therefore impossible.

It is obvious -- and a relief -- that you are not involved in the sciences.

    Bookmark   February 20, 2013 at 1:31PM
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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

It is also arrogant to believe that our actions make much of a difference in the climate or other changes

It is also arrogant to believe that one's nonscientific opinion, bias really, is more important that what climate scientists state based on real evidence.

    Bookmark   February 20, 2013 at 1:36PM
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demifloyd(8)

Not all climate scientists agree, Nancy.

There is evidence, but there is much that is speculation and not conclusive.

Of course our climate is changing, and some changes may be due to man. All of them? Hardly.

As to this comment, Nancy, "It is also arrogant to believe that one's nonscientific opinion, bias really, is more important that what climate scientists state based on real evidence." , I have no BIAS and you have no business stating my opinion is bias, because I haven't said to what extent I believe what causes climate changes.

Additionally, I've never said that my opinion is more important than what climate scientists say--my opinion is only important to me.

I am quite capable of examining evidence from different sources and making up my own mind about what I believe--and do so, from different sources.

So, Nancy, you got it wrong on two counts in one post about me!

You do better when you just talk about facts and not speak for what I think and whether I have bias or not.

    Bookmark   February 20, 2013 at 1:43PM
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david52_gw

Sticking the flounce:

    Bookmark   February 20, 2013 at 1:59PM
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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

I have no BIAS and you have no business stating my opinion is bias

My opinion is that you are biased against the idea of anthropogenic climate change -- a subject on which there is overwhelming support in the scientific community. Unfortunately bias against scientific evidence is common among conservatives in the U.S.

You do better when you just talk about facts

I did; your dismissal of scientific evidence as 'arrogant' is a fact.

    Bookmark   February 20, 2013 at 2:02PM
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Factotem

demifloyd wrote,

Not all climate scientists agree, Nancy.

Meaningless assertion. The overwhelming majority of climate scientists agree that there is human-caused climate change, and therefore disagree with you.

You can certainly draw your own conclusion, but you cannot factually claim that your conclusion agrees with the consensus of climate scientists, as that is a matter of objective fact.

There are scientists who believe the earth is 6,000 years old. That is not the consensus.

There is evidence, but there is much that is speculation and not conclusive.

False dichotomy fallacy. Evidence for AGW is overwhelming. You have presented no evidence that counters the consensus among scientists.

Of course our climate is changing, and some changes may be due to man. All of them? Hardly.

Bizzare, ascientific line of reasoning in furtherance of a form of an excluded middle fallacy with a straw man thrown in for good measure. This is truly thin gruel; a refresher on logic would help.

As to this comment, Nancy, "It is also arrogant to believe that one's nonscientific opinion, bias really, is more important that what climate scientists state based on real evidence." , I have no BIAS and you have no business stating my opinion is bias [sic]

Of course you have bias; you've proven that by taking a position at odds with the consensus of climate scientists yet you have articulated no reason why you believe you are right and they are wrong except that your position is less "arrogant", A very clear example of bias informing a decision on a position.

I haven't said to what extent I believe what causes climate changes.

Yes, you have. You wrote, "It is also arrogant to believe that our actions make much of a difference in the climate." So you have directly stated to what extent you believe our actions influence the climate.

Additionally, I've never said that my opinion is more important than what climate scientists say--my opinion is only important to me.

The metric is not the "importance" of your position, whatever that means. It's the "correctness". Obviously, your opinion is unimportant to everyone except you, as you say. But clearly you believe your assessment of climate change is more correct than that of the consensus of climate scientists, otherwise you wouldn't hold the position you have arrived at. Now, *that's* arrogant.

I am quite capable of examining evidence from different sources and making up my own mind about what I believe--and do so, from different sources.

No, you aren't, as you have already demonstrated when you applied the test of "arrogance" to a scientific question. Such flagrant bias disqualifies you from making a rational assessment of a scientific issue. Of course, you are free to arrive at whatever conclusion pleases you, but have no illusions that it was the result of logical thought.

You do better when you just talk about facts and not speak for what I think and whether I have bias or not.

As noted, you have already admitted bias because you apply an arrogance test to data and logic.

    Bookmark   February 20, 2013 at 2:12PM
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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Thanks, factotem. You have more patience than I do.

    Bookmark   February 20, 2013 at 2:20PM
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RpR_(3-4)

Posted by Factotem

" Of course, you are free to arrive at whatever conclusion pleases you, but have no illusions that it was the result of logical thought.

You do better when you just talk about facts and not speak for what I think and whether I have bias or not.

As noted, you have already admitted bias because you apply an arrogance test to data and logic."--------------------------------------------------You had best take your own advice factoto, as all your rant was your opinion, nothing more.
No more important or less important or correct than the one of demifloyd.
It is your opinion and nothing more.

This post was edited by RpR_ on Wed, Feb 20, 13 at 15:34

    Bookmark   February 20, 2013 at 2:50PM
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labrea_gw

See now that's what iwas saying what difference does it make if I point out that some folks play or not. Just my endless disappointment in a forum but alas I most certainly do point it out. What matters if they wish to chat about. Something else it only highlights the dysfunction present.

    Bookmark   February 20, 2013 at 3:34PM
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Factotem

RpR wrote,

Posted by Factotem
" Of course, you are free to arrive at whatever conclusion pleases you, but have no illusions that it was the result of logical thought.

You do better when you just talk about facts and not speak for what I think and whether I have bias or not.

As noted, you have already admitted bias because you apply an arrogance test to data and logic."--------------------------------------------------You had best take your own advice factoto, as all your rant was your opinion, nothing more.
No more important or less important or correct than the one of demifloyd.
It is your opinion and nothing more.

Incorrect. First, I had no rant; so you're already at a deficit in the good faith department due to that straw man. Next, I offered facts, which demifloyd does not dispute: the consensus of scientists is that there is human-caused climate change. That's not my opinion, and demifloyd has not contested that fact. I also pointed out that demifloyd applies an arrogance test to scientific conclusions; that, again, is not an opinion, it is a matter of fact, and the fact is not in dispute. And, of course, I identified numerous logical fallacies; again, that's not opinion.

Your post is really just one more fallacy -- the tried-and-true straw man, within which you've embedded a tu quoque argument. Nothing there.

What is your assessment of the reliability of someone's ability to scientifically reason when they believe the earth is 6,000 years old? Would you trust their assessments on other matters requiring examination of data and logical reasoning?

    Bookmark   February 20, 2013 at 4:05PM
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david52_gw

They just haven't found a way to blame climate change on libruls and Obama. When that happens, there will be a hue and cry across the land demanding that we do something about it.

/for the sake of our grand children.

    Bookmark   February 20, 2013 at 4:19PM
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demifloyd(8)

Nancy:

You do better when you just talk about facts

I did; your dismissal of scientific evidence as 'arrogant' is a fact.

*
I have not dismissed scientific evidence.

I would never do that.

This is what I said:

"It is also arrogant to believe that our actions make much of a difference in the climate or other changes, whether it is to significantly diminish the comfort of our existence here or to significantly enhance it. "

That is exactly what I meant.
No more, no less.

*

David, what is "the flounce?"

What was the purpose of that posting?

    Bookmark   February 20, 2013 at 4:42PM
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demifloyd(8)

clip this post email this post what is this?
see most clipped and recent clippings

Posted by nancy_in_venice_ca SS24 z10 CA (My Page) on
Wed, Feb 20, 13 at 14:20

Thanks, factotem. You have more patience than I do.

*

No, I have more patience!

:)

    Bookmark   February 20, 2013 at 4:43PM
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david52_gw

'Sticking the flounce' is a popular internet meme that I personally find very amusing.

As a verb, to 'flounce' is to depart a discussion in a comments thread with a degree of theatre, generally declaring in so doing one of the following as reasons:
that the opposition's tone is unacceptable to one's delicate sensibilities that the opposition is arguing like a buncha third graders, unlike the flouncer's much more refined and mature self that the flouncer has work to do (and, by implication, the opposition are a buncha unemployed bums with nothing better to do than make the flouncer look stupid by, say, actually engaging their argument meaningfully, those jerks).

As a noun, a 'flounce' is the act of flouncing, as described above.

There is some noted variability in the ability of flouncers to remain flounced. Speculation as to the flouncer's ability to 'stick the flounce' is a common topic, post-flounce. It is the totally unfair and unwarranted observation of this author--as implied by the above set of reasons for flounces--that flouncing is a particularly common maneuver amongst tone trolls.

Flounces are generally rated much as is done in judging in figure skating, with separate scorings for technical and artistic merit.

As per global climate change, I find it amazing that people still believe that mankind can burn trillions of tons of coal and dump the waste garbage into the sky and water, year after year after year, and figure that it can't have any effect. Because God wouldn't allow it or something.

    Bookmark   February 20, 2013 at 4:49PM
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labrea_gw

See this is why Obama's getting a medal!

    Bookmark   February 20, 2013 at 4:55PM
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RpR_(3-4)

Posted by Factotem

"Your post is really just one more fallacy -- the tried-and-true straw man, within which you've embedded a tu quoque argument. Nothing there.

What is your assessment of the reliability of someone's ability to scientifically reason when they believe the earth is 6,000 years old? Would you trust their assessments on other matters requiring examination of data and logical reasoning?"--------------------------------------That is your opinion and you are welcome to it.

Your infatuation with my opinion on x,y or z is a bit odd.

    Bookmark   February 20, 2013 at 4:57PM
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elvis

"What was the purpose of that posting?"

•Posted by david52 z5CO (My Page) on Wed, Feb 20, 13 at 16:49

"'Sticking the flounce' is a popular internet meme that I personally find very amusing. "

And here I thought that you were coming out.

;-)

    Bookmark   February 20, 2013 at 5:01PM
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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

I have not dismissed scientific evidence.

One cannot make the following statement without dismissing scientific evidence. It is also arrogant to believe that our actions make much of a difference in the climate or other changes

Given the overwhelming majority of climate scientists who maintain that there is anthropogenic climate change, one could not even begin to consider the above statement without suppressing the urge to laugh -- or cry.

All the noise and hand flapping cannot negate that what was freely written is simply hogwash.

I find it amazing that people still believe that mankind can burn trillions of tons of coal and dump the waste garbage into the sky and water, year after year after year, and figure that it can't have any effect.

It's not as if we haven't seen what pollution can do to bodies of water.

    Bookmark   February 20, 2013 at 5:01PM
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Factotem

demifloyd wrote,

I have not dismissed scientific evidence.

I would never do that.

This is what I said:

"It is also arrogant to believe that our actions make much of a difference in the climate or other changes, whether it is to significantly diminish the comfort of our existence here or to significantly enhance it. "

That is exactly what I meant.
No more, no less.

Exactly -- you said that you apply an "arrogance" test to scientific findings, and if you decide that the findings have an arrogant implication to you, you reject them. I appreciate your being so honest about your approach to science. It gives real insight into your thought processes.

    Bookmark   February 20, 2013 at 5:03PM
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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

See this is why Obama's getting a medal!

And this is why we love you, labrea! ;0)

    Bookmark   February 20, 2013 at 5:04PM
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demifloyd(8)

As per global climate change, I find it amazing that people still believe that mankind can burn trillions of tons of coal and dump the waste garbage into the sky and water, year after year after year, and figure that it can't have any effect. Because God wouldn't allow it or something.

*

Well, David all I can say is that of course I believe that mankind has had an effect on this planet and the atmosphere.
But to the degree that those effects alone as I said, "make much of a difference in the climate or other changes, whether it is to significantly diminish the comfort of our existence here or to significantly enhance it, " I'm certainly not sold.

Now--as usual, the tenor of this forum is to make judgment on posters for giving their opinion.

It is my opinion that I don't necessarily believe that man's actions have caused all of the changes that some find undesirable. Perhaps in the end, the changes are not undesirable--that again, I believe is the arrogance of present mankind.

*

As to the "flounce," I'm sorry I asked as I had no idea that anyone would put that much effort into coming up with a "diss" for fellow posters on forums.

But apparently they are legion.

I'm sure you'll find more good use for that.

In any event, they say you learn something everyday.
Now there's "flounce."

    Bookmark   February 20, 2013 at 5:07PM
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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Flounces are generally rated much as is done in judging in figure skating, with separate scorings for technical and artistic merit.

Oh, I really like this!

What is technical merit -- grammar and spelling? No post-posting edits?

    Bookmark   February 20, 2013 at 5:09PM
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demifloyd(8)

Gross.

    Bookmark   February 20, 2013 at 5:31PM
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labrea_gw

A flounce only looks nice if it's chintz!

    Bookmark   February 20, 2013 at 5:37PM
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vgkg(Z-7)

Whoa, yawl are on thin ice, I may have to assign this curve ball tread a number.

Confusion say :
You alter the chemistry of the earth's atmosphere - you alter more than just the climate.

    Bookmark   February 20, 2013 at 5:55PM
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youngquinn_gw

"But to the degree that those effects alone as I said, "make much of a difference in the climate or other changes, whether it is to significantly diminish the comfort of our existence here or to significantly enhance it, " I'm certainly not sold. "

did you do much science education demi?

    Bookmark   February 20, 2013 at 6:07PM
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jillinnj

Enjoy it while the thrill of finally getting a response out of me lasts

Wow, you truly have a very distorted sense of your self.

If one is insulted and addressed enough without solicitation, one might decide not to scroll on by 100% of the time. It depends on my tolerance for harrassment, Lily!

In any event, it's my call when I post. :)

Yes, it certainly is your call when you post. Just as it for the rest of us (although you like to complain about how the rest of us waste our time posting here when we could be making more money). But, you don't seem to understand. You are the one who said I was a scroll on by for you. You didn't understand the acronym (SOB) and someone explained it. That doesn't mean you read the posts and decide when to respond. See, that would not have a name since that's what everyone does on every single thread. SOB means you SCROLL ON BY without reading. Now, I don't care whether you SOB my posts or not. But to claim you are going to SOB and then not, as evidenced by your replying to them, is what some might call lying.

Get it now?

    Bookmark   February 20, 2013 at 6:07PM
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david52_gw

Rapidly changing the chemical composition of the atmosphere back to where it was 15 million years ago?

What could possibly go wrong?

    Bookmark   February 20, 2013 at 6:14PM
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Factotem

david52 wrote,

As a verb, to 'flounce' is to depart a discussion in a comments thread with a degree of theatre...

Example: demifloyd:

The comments of you two supposedly grown and older women just reminded me why I haven't been here nearly as much. So after I finish this post I'm signing off.

...or,

I suppose this isn't the place to be if one is trying to be above pettiness and discord.

So, I'm headed out.

...or even,

I don't post here much anymore

...from 2010!

Back to david...

...generally declaring in so doing one of the following as reasons:

- that the opposition's tone is unacceptable to one's delicate sensibilities

Example: demifloyd wrote,

I've conducted myself with way more class than most posters here these last few years.

- that the opposition is arguing like a buncha third graders, unlike the flouncer's much more refined and mature self

Example: demifloyd wrote,

I'm not a fourteen year old boy.
I don't care about one side "winning" or one side "losing."

...or,

You can play junior high if you want.

Big girl panties are helpful.

...or,

mean spirited people grasping for an opportunity to exercise obviously well practiced Junior High Girl Tactics

...or,

Yep, you've joined the Junior High Mean Girl and Boy Gang here at Hot Topics, have you gotten your official High Five yet

...or,

I have no need to visit the Junior High Locker Room.

...or,

behavior often displayed by junior high girls

...or, a combo...

You should be ashamed of this junior high stuff.
I'm disgusted.

Truly, truly disgusted.

...another combo...

Some people never leave the junior high playground, particularly the bullies.

Fortunately, most of us have moved on and conduct ourselves with class, decorum and accountability.

Back to david's explanation...

that the flouncer has work to do (and, by implication, the opposition are a buncha unemployed bums with nothing better to do than make the flouncer look stupid by, say, actually engaging their argument meaningfully, those jerks).

Example: demifloyd wrote,

Now, I have a life and I'm late going in to to get my car inspected (have to pay those taxes you know) and go to the grocery store, which I haven't done since June.

...or,

Now, I have to go for that walk, have to keep that backside in good shape

...or another combo!

My last houseguest just left and I have three hours until the next arrives.

The gumbo needs more shrimp so I don't have the time or inclination to fend off anymore mudpies thrown from the junior high playground!

Back to the definition...

As a noun, a 'flounce' is the act of flouncing, as described above.

There is some noted variability in the ability of flouncers to remain flounced. Speculation as to the flouncer's ability to 'stick the flounce' is a common topic, post-flounce. It is the totally unfair and unwarranted observation of this author--as implied by the above set of reasons for flounces--that flouncing is a particularly common maneuver amongst tone trolls. (emphases added)

The whole thing is disturbingly accurate.

    Bookmark   February 20, 2013 at 6:14PM
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jillinnj

A flounce only looks nice if it's chintz!

I do love a nice damask!

    Bookmark   February 20, 2013 at 6:18PM
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Factotem

demifloyd wrote,

But to the degree that those effects alone as I said, "make much of a difference in the climate or other changes, whether it is to significantly diminish the comfort of our existence here or to significantly enhance it, " I'm certainly not sold.

Right, as you explained, you take that position not because that's what the overwhelming majority of scientists say, but because you take what they say and then counter it with your "arrogance" test to form your assessment. Certainly your prerogative, but don't confuse that process with reason.

    Bookmark   February 20, 2013 at 6:22PM
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labrea_gw

Gee this is just like Washington.
If you get all this chazerai with a flounce I can't imagine what a gingham peplum!

    Bookmark   February 20, 2013 at 9:21PM
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mylab123(z5NW)

Ever since Sleepless flounced in I've been laughing hysterically!
Thanks peeps!

    Bookmark   February 20, 2013 at 9:56PM
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epiphyticlvr

Nancy, don't underestimate your own patience.

Oy, another meshuga thread because of a few shmendriks. ;)

    Bookmark   February 20, 2013 at 10:17PM
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sable_ca(z9CA)

If you get all this chazerai with a flounce I can't imagine what a gingham peplum!"

"Annoyed, she peplumed off the thread." No, that just doesn't work. The only woman who could go pepluming anywhere and have people notice was Marilyn Monroe.

Or were you thinking of "gingham style"?

Perhaps, Labrea, the topic of your thread was just too narrow to have it go anywhere but awry. The medal business seems to be a quid pro quo honoring the relationship between Peres and Obama. Our Prez will receive as enthusiastic a reception in Israel as he does anywhere else.

    Bookmark   February 20, 2013 at 10:34PM
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chase_gw

Very convoluted thread but ....I think I've got it.

President Obama is receiving an award for having a grasp on the effect of climate change on Israel and Mrs Obama is wearing a gingham flounce trimmed in Paper Whites to mark the occasion.

This post was edited by chase on Wed, Feb 20, 13 at 22:54

    Bookmark   February 20, 2013 at 10:47PM
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marquest(z5 PA)

Joe your topic is "howl weep & tear your clothes". It took a couple of responses and then they came and Howled and started Weeping and tearing their clothes.

It had to happen. This is like watching Fox News.

    Bookmark   February 20, 2013 at 10:51PM
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labrea_gw

I've jumped headlong down more K holes, Nik Holes than I care to shake a stick at on this forum. I played in everyone's sand box.
The fly fishers the web weavers and all the other assortment of posters that have come & gone.
In sales if you don't ask for the sale your an idiot who deserves not to get paid & should be in another Field.
Occasionally I find a nice piece of goods to bait a hook with. I found the story ridiculous but thought NYA NYA NYA NYA why not call the old or young gals out on it.
That is asking for the sale . Of course I dare to ask you guys to respond Geeze Louise you'd swear I asked you for a sub prime loan so I could buy crack!
Now I'v'e girded my chagrin with a shagreen cagoule and am most certainly enjoying the surrealistic quality that can come from a thread such as a medal from a muddle in the Middle East!

This post was edited by labrea on Wed, Feb 20, 13 at 23:45

    Bookmark   February 20, 2013 at 11:20PM
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