The UN vs the Vatican

eibren(z6PA)February 5, 2014

This should shape up to be one of the more interesting confrontations of the age.

I am getting my popcorn ready.

Here is a link that might be useful: The Wire

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tobr24u(z6 RI)

They hit the Vatican with both barrels!

    Bookmark   February 6, 2014 at 4:51AM
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So many Bishops & Cardinals have fought hard to maintain the statute of limitations laws in the US.

1) The Vatican âÂÂstill places children in many countries at high risk of sexual abuse, as dozens of child sexual offenders are reported to be still in contact with children.âÂÂ

(This is, in our view, a dreadful understatement. Hundreds of proven, admitted and credibly accused child molesting clerics still hold church jobs or are around kids. Only a tiny fraction of credibly accused and suspended child molesting priests, nuns, bishops, brothers and seminarians are monitored by church officials (and even then, not monitored well). An even smaller group are ever criminally prosecuted. So most sex offender clergy remain either on the job or unsupervised.)

2) The Vatican âÂÂhas consistently placed the preservation of the reputation of the Church and the protection of the perpetrators above childrenâÂÂs best interests, as observed by several national commissions of inquiry." and has âÂÂpolicies and practices which have led to the continuation of the abuse by and the impunity of the perpetrators.âÂÂ

3) On âÂÂnumerous occasions,â the Vatican âÂÂhas refused to cooperate with law enforcement authorities and to disclose information requested by prosecutors and national commissions of inquiryâÂÂ

4) The Vatican âÂÂhas signed treaties with certain States, notably Italy, which guarantee areas of immunity from prosecution to Vatican officials, including for bishops and priests accused of offences.âÂÂ

5) The Vatican should âÂÂpromote the reform of statute of limitations in countries where they impede victims of child sexual abuse from seeking justice.â (In reality, time and time again, Catholic officials have fought hard against this simple reform.)

When some of this was first being posted on here years ago posters were excoriated as Anti Catholic, and that this was all part of the agenda to humiliate the Church.
Lately it's been about the agenda to take over the Church (certain buzz words ruin an assertion right of the bat)

I haven't done it in awhile I used to do a monthly round up of all Religious and their misdeeds (clearly pointing out that I believed you could take a cross section of any profession and come up with these statistics)
The Only difference the plumbers Union wasn't a world wide organization using influence & money to cover up plumbers misdeeds.

    Bookmark   February 6, 2014 at 9:24AM
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Brushworks Spectacular Finishes(5)

I read it.

Thanks for moving my post up the ladder. It needs attention.

    Bookmark   February 6, 2014 at 9:29AM
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I remember those threads, Labrea, they were very informative. Jodi also campaigned about this issue in the Catholic church for many months. To be honest, I didn't always read every word, because they got quite depressing after awhile, but I at least skimmed most of it.

It is amazing how long the Catholic heirarchy has been dragging its feet on this issue.

What most interests me about this particular confrontation is the politics of it, and the claims of religious immunity the Catholic church is making.

IMO it is sort of nice that one human institution appears to have some compassion for pedophiles, which would be compatible with Christian beliefs regarding forgiveness, but it should not be at the expense of child safety.

A core problem with this whole issue is the possibility of false claims and how to exonerate those who could be the victim of these. There historically have not been too many false ones, but given the publicity these days around this issue the possibility of spite or financially motivated claims cannot be totally ruled out.

(Brush, which post were you referring to?)

    Bookmark   February 6, 2014 at 10:27AM
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During most of the 14 years that Bergoglio (FRANCIS) served as archbishop of Buenos Aires, rights advocates say, he did not take decisive action to protect children or act swiftly when molestation charges surfaced; nor did he extend apologies to the victims of abusive priests after their misconduct came to light.

    Bookmark   February 6, 2014 at 10:49AM
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I can understand the apology part, as it is admitting guilt, which has financial implications for the Catholic church, particularly if he was uncertain of the truth of the allegations.

Not assuring the safety of children, even if uncertain of the truth of the allegations, is totally irresponsible. Various cultures do seem to vary in how seriously they take input by children, but a person in a responsible position should be more aware than that.

    Bookmark   February 6, 2014 at 10:59AM
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Brushworks Spectacular Finishes(5)


It was attached to Joe's previous post.

During most of the 14 years that Bergoglio (FRANCIS) served as archbishop of Buenos Aires, rights advocates say, he did not take decisive action to protect children or act swiftly when molestation charges surfaced; nor did he extend apologies to the victims of abusive priests after their misconduct came to light.

The Francis supporters will probably duck this thread.

    Bookmark   February 6, 2014 at 11:04AM
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I am sort of upset myself that this seems to be his Achilles heel.

I even found myself wondering if the Powers That Be might be trying to take him down because of his strong sympathies for the poor.

Labrea is alway to be counted on when it comes to ferreting out these little gems. I don't know how he does it.

    Bookmark   February 6, 2014 at 11:10AM
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When the present Pope became pope the facts about his non support of victims of abuse was made public. This is not news if any one was interested in the truth. The present Pope has some positive and very negative attributes. I believe in looking at the whole picture. I cant to this day believe that no one in the Catholic church who enabled the abuse seems to have gone to jail as they should have. When you cover up a crime you ought to be charged with that.

    Bookmark   February 6, 2014 at 1:53PM
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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

I haven't had time to read the UN report, but from what little that I've read, and the reports that I've heard, I agree with its conclusions. If nothing else, the UN report might encourage secular law enforcement to charge clergy with crimes.

Papa Bergoglio was in Buenos Aires during the time of John Paul II and Ratzinger/Benedict. There have been accusations against
Cardinal Ratzinger for initiating a cover up of abuse. The cardinal, as head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, saw all the accusations of abuse, and yet so few, if any, were prosecuted by the Vatican in its internal procedures.

I don't know the full circumstances around Bergoglio's silence, and lack of apology. Even if under orders to maintain silence, I would have liked to see more compassion. Pope Benedict XVI faced claims last night he had 'obstructed justice' after it emerged he issued an order ensuring the church's investigations into child sex abuse claims be carried out in secret.

The order was made in a confidential letter, obtained by The Observer, which was sent to every Catholic bishop in May 2001.

It asserted the church's right to hold its inquiries behind closed doors and keep the evidence confidential for up to 10 years after the victims reached adulthood. The letter was signed by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, who was elected as John Paul II's successor last week. [ . . . ]

The letter states that the church's jurisdiction 'begins to run from the day when the minor has completed the 18th year of age' and lasts for 10 years.

It orders that 'preliminary investigations' into any claims of abuse should be sent to Ratzinger's office, which has the option of referring them back to private tribunals in which the 'functions of judge, promoter of justice, notary and legal representative can validly be performed for these cases only by priests'.

'Cases of this kind are subject to the pontifical secret,' Ratzinger's letter concludes. Breaching the pontifical secret at any time while the 10-year jurisdiction order is operating carries penalties, including the threat of excommunication. [ . . . ]

The Ratzinger letter was co-signed by Archbishop Tarcisio Bertone who gave an interview two years ago in which he hinted at the church's opposition to allowing outside agencies to investigate abuse claims.

'In my opinion, the demand that a bishop be obligated to contact the police in order to denounce a priest who has admitted the offence of paedophilia is unfounded,' Bertone said.

    Bookmark   February 6, 2014 at 6:43PM
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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Since the Pope is assembling a commission on child abuse, and how to protect children from abusive priests, I hope that the UN report exerts pressure for more reforms. On the many pressing problems related to child welfare, the report recommended specific steps it said the Vatican should take: stop obstructing efforts by victimsâ advocates in some countries to extend statutes of limitations, which now allow most abusers to escape prosecution; stop insisting that victims sign confidentiality agreements swearing them to silence as a condition for receiving compensation; help birth parents locate children who were taken from them for adoption out of Catholic institutions like the Magdalene Laundries in Ireland; and identify, count and financially support children fathered by Catholic priests without imposing confidentiality agreements on the mothers.

I hope the Vatican acts accordingly: The panel rejected the churchâÂÂs key contention that the Vatican has no jurisdiction over its bishops and priests around the world, and is responsible for putting in effect the Convention on the Rights of the Child only within the tiny territory of Vatican City. By ratifying the convention, the panel said, the Vatican took responsibility for making sure it was respected by individuals and institutions under the Holy SeeâÂÂs authority around the world.

    Bookmark   February 6, 2014 at 6:59PM
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A Few Months back the Catholic Church in Poland took a unique tact saying victims would not be compensated by the Church. It was up to victims to sue the individual priests for any damages.

In the past

Legal: Efforts to sue the Vatican in America courts over the crisis are premised on the notion that a bishop is an "employee" or an "official" of Rome, prompting Vatican lawyers to emphasize the independence of local bishops. In a filing on Monday in U.S. district court in Kentucky, Vatican attorney Jeffrey Lena insisted that the Holy See does not exercise "day-to-day operational control" over bishops, and that bishops are more akin to independent contractors or franchisees than employees. Anything that smacks of direct oversight could expose the Vatican to greater liability, creating an incentive for Rome to keep its distance.
I'll have a bucket of BS extra Crispy!

    Bookmark   February 7, 2014 at 4:52PM
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The Vatican said the U.N. committee had ignored both the Holy See's unique status and its efforts to address the abuse crisis in recent years, noting that it had provided this information to the committee in writing and in person. It blasted what it called the "absolutely anomalous" publicity the committee gave its report and promised a full response at a later date.

    Bookmark   February 7, 2014 at 7:09PM
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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

It blasted what it called the "absolutely anomalous" publicity the committee gave its report

Pretty weak defense.

its efforts to address the abuse crisis in recent years

I remember reports of the Vatican representative's testimony to the U.N. commission, and the tepid response he received. The current U.N. criticism couldn't have been a surprise.

    Bookmark   February 7, 2014 at 7:17PM
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I missed this part in my first read:

"Scathing as the report is, it does not require any action from the Vatican as U.N. reports are not binding and they have no enforcement power over the Church anyway. But the report was commissioned by Pope Francis himself, back in December, suggesting that he is committed to seeing the scandal-ridden system change. "

Pope Francis may have gotten more than he asked for.

    Bookmark   February 7, 2014 at 7:51PM
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This is definitely one issue that solidified my sour distaste for any sort of organized religion... even though I was already rapidly trying to extricate myself from conditioning begun at birth.

The blatant hypocrisy, the denial, the failure to protect the innocent... while allowing known pedophiles and abusers to remain active within the organization just makes me sick to my stomach.

The fact that very few known abusers within the church are ever turned over to the law for legal prosecution, and too much of it is dealt with in secrecy, monies paid to quiet victims, etc...

Within an organization of that size, one would think some kind of vetting would be mandatory... checking of records, etc...

I truly do hope some major changes are in store for the church under the guidance of the new pope... with a major push from the UN.

    Bookmark   February 8, 2014 at 6:40AM
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Frankly I haven't seen any "pope defenders" on HT especially concerning the abuse of children by the church or their treatment of women.

Please do enlighten.

    Bookmark   February 8, 2014 at 7:00AM
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It will be interesting to see how the Pope deals with this report. He must act and act decisively to have the Holy See take full accountability for the actions of all priests and bishops.

    Bookmark   February 8, 2014 at 8:39AM
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