growing dwarfs on standards

vampyrepyro420(6a)November 30, 2006

i was wondering if you can graft a dwarf jm like floating cloud on a standard and get a bigger tree than just a dwarf?

thankyou

ben

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myersphcf(z6a IL)

Basically when you graft a tree onto standard ap plamatum roostock you get the grafted "mother" tree the scion is taken from otherwise why graft. There has been some speculation that over time some grafted trees, repeatedly grafted, especially dwarfs, do get larger.and I suppose the root stock does play a small roll but the pejoritive word is small or should I say miniscule.. basically you are trying to propagate the grafted scion from your parent plant NOT the rootstock. I personally know of no one who grafts dwarfs on dwarf rootstock ...that would be VERY expensive and defeat the purpose of ever grafting in quantity, although fruit trees are often grafted on dwarf or semi dwarf rootstock to make a smaller tree...so I guess the opposite is possible ( I am though not sure of this with JM's) So after all of this and aside from my temptation to ask why anyone would ever want to since there are surely standard trees similar to the Floating Cloud my answer would be NO. David

    Bookmark   November 30, 2006 at 11:26PM
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mjh1676(z7soOR)

Yes of course you can. What you get is a dwaf atop a tall standard. If you take a very small one like Yuri hime it looks stupid. If you do one like Geisha, which was done on standards for a while and still is to some degree, you get a spreading semi-dwarf that looks silly not stupid.

To clarify, when you say standard, we assume a taller understock for the graft, usually 16" or taller, and would be typical of how dissectums are grafted. The standard will only affect the overall size of the dwarf if it has more vigor than the dwarf. If you push the plant it will be larger.

In general, dwarf maples should be grafted as low to the ground as possible. If graft them taller is silly because generally the dwarf variety created by the scion remains dwarf and sits atop a tall stock--a novelty but silly looking.

There is no dwarfing rootstock for maples that I am aware of as most rootstocks are from generic green palmatum seed that varies in characteristics. If you pick a vigorous rootstock it will push the scion harder and a more feeble rootstock will keep a dwarf maple more dwarf. Repeated grafting on vigorous rootstocks does obscure the size of dwarf maples and they do lose some of their integrity over time. The only way to truly maintain a pure varietal line of a slected clone is through propagation by cuttings.

Lasty, Ukigumo, aka. Floating Clouds, is not a dwarf. At best it is a semi-dwarf, but I would consider it a small tree of the non-dwarf type.

MJH

    Bookmark   December 1, 2006 at 2:29AM
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myersphcf(z6a IL)

It still will NOT be a standard sized tree...it will just be a stupid looking one ... I read that Ben wanted a large "standard" tree from his "semi dwarf" variety ...that would have nothing to do with graft placement just as dissectums grafted high are taller than grafted low but will never become as tall as say a bloodgood unless you grafted at 5-6 feet...again looking both stupid and needing a LARGE rootstock or in fact a TREE to do so.High grafts increase size and potentially change shape of a tree but I don't believe it can make a dwarf or semi dwarf a large tree.I guess it comes down to how you read Bens letter . Mj obviously read it differnt than me .. David

    Bookmark   December 1, 2006 at 10:33AM
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myersphcf(z6a IL)

I would further state that the height differnce from a high graft to a low one is basically the distance between the two ...if one was at 2" and one at 24' the tree would be in total 22" taller period ...not much . Now a high graft does seem to make a more vertical tree but trimming a low graft could accomplish the same thing. I personally like low grafts on everything ...Dissectums in particular do not exhibit as much of the that annoying mushroom shape with low grafts and tend to grow more outwards but could be trimed to grow higher and still not have so much of that darn trunk ( unbrella handle ;>) ) showing. Many growers graft high #1 cause its easier especially if you're doing thousands and #2 To get a taller tree quicker making it easier to sell and for more dinero...If you see a 1 gal 30" tree or a 1 gal 8" tree which would you be willing to pay more for.. Most traditionalists and smaller growers graft everything low...It also has the added benifit of having the graft area disappear over time or at least become less unsightly since it's not far from dirt level...David

    Bookmark   December 1, 2006 at 2:48PM
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conifers

There are a lot of reasons to graft up high. One, to create a desired look when a miniature or dwarf cultivar is being used (typically (2) or more scions are attached anywhere on the seedling understock and grafting (2) scions simply will create a "plant" quicker). Also, any plant that has a cascading/weeping effect is most typically grafted higher up which minimizes the amount of time for a grower to have a plant ready (to sell, to plant out) in his/her garden/nursery. This 'advantageous' approach or grafting to a "standard" allows the grower to have a fuller plant in a shorter period of time, thus to reiterate.

Therefore, a graft can take place anywhere on the seedling understock/rootstock just so long as both the scion(s) and undertock that you're cutting into has "hardwood" to match up with among the other. This use of hardwood is the beginnings of a successful graft, whereas using wood that is soft, semi-hard, etc will not successfully heal or later callous.

Regards,

Dax

    Bookmark   December 2, 2006 at 10:20AM
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Embothrium(USDA 8 Sunset 5 WA)

Seems like some less vigorous kinds might be made more vigorous by grafting onto seedling rootstocks, as often happens with conifers.

    Bookmark   December 2, 2006 at 6:28PM
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conifers

Most all Maples (asian, circinatum included) are grafted regardless though. But yes I certainly can't disagree with you Ron.

Dax

    Bookmark   December 3, 2006 at 4:28PM
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Embothrium(USDA 8 Sunset 5 WA)

I've mentioned before seeing some huge A. circinatum 'Little Gem' (with the correct leaves and branching) at a local garden center. I think it was suggested here that they were probably invigorated by seedling rootstocks.

    Bookmark   December 3, 2006 at 4:37PM
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conifers

Or invigorated by your climate:) Conifers can also be effected quite differently in a warm Pacific Northwest climate as opposed to my zone 5 Illinois climate. A conifer grower I know commented just the other day that many cultivars here will stay very tight and compact while the same conifer in certain Oregon and Washington climates will open up and also grow twice as twice the rate.

Of course species to species for grafting is the perfect world when you have it all up and happening.

Dax

    Bookmark   December 4, 2006 at 1:33AM
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Embothrium(USDA 8 Sunset 5 WA)

Normally seen as a small bush here with little apparent ambition to grow big.

    Bookmark   December 6, 2006 at 12:50AM
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conifers

A native to ya!

Take care,

Dax

    Bookmark   December 7, 2006 at 8:26AM
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