Ukraine. Israel. Explain the difference.

haydayhaydayMarch 22, 2014

As far as I can tell, it looks to me like a pretty clear majority of the Crimeans voted to join Russia. And they did. All that seems pretty reasonable to me.

Meanwhile in Israel,

"Richard Falk, United Nations special rapporteur on human rights in the Palestinian territories, told a news conference that Israeli policies bore "unacceptable characteristics of colonialism, apartheid and ethnic cleansing".

Our government condemns Russia and gives Israel almost unconditional support.

No?

Why?

Hay

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momj47(7A)

it looks to me like a pretty clear majority of the Crimeans voted to join Russia

I believe it was a majority of Russians living in Crimea who voted to join Russia.

Most native Crimeans (Tatars) didn't vote, either because they boycotted the vote, they are dead, or still live in the Ural Mountains or Siberia, where Stalin "relocated" them after WWII. I seriously doubt any Crimean would vote to join Russia.

    Bookmark   March 22, 2014 at 11:57AM
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haydayhayday

I'm looking for the differences, not the similarities.

Why do we treat the situations so differently?

From your link:

At the turn of the century, it looks like the ethnic Russians and the Tartars were about equal, 35%. And in the region around Israel at the turn of the century?

"I believe it was a majority of Russians living in Crimea who voted to join Russia.

Are these "Russians living in Crimea" Russians who have recently moved into the region? Or native born from ancestors who have lived there for a very long time?

Why do we treat the situations so differently?

Hay

    Bookmark   March 22, 2014 at 1:14PM
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elvis

"Why do we treat the situations so differently?"

Let's see. How many prominent Ukrainians live in the USA? Got much money/influence? Hm.

It could be location, location, location. That could be it.

Or maybe the folks in Israel are just nicer. That could be it.

Dunno, Hay, that's a darn good question.

    Bookmark   March 22, 2014 at 1:21PM
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momj47(7A)

As I understand it, most of the Russians moved in after WWII, when Stalin rewarded Russian soldiers with property "abandoned by the Tatars", in Crimea. They haven't lived there very long.

We treat Israel differently because of the Israel Lobby, a very strong, rich, active political group in the US and Western Europe.

There isn't a Ukraine or Crimea Lobby.

    Bookmark   March 22, 2014 at 1:34PM
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david52_gw

A couple of weeks ago, I listened to a very informative interview on BBC World Radio - they defined it as a generational thing - many of the older people living in Crimea, those alive during the Soviet days, were more inclined to view themselves as Russian, the younger generation viewed themselves as Ukrainian. But just about everybody spoke both Ukrainian and Russian, what with the peninsula having a tourist-based economy, the school system was bi-lingual, and so on.

    Bookmark   March 22, 2014 at 1:52PM
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haydayhayday

I was just now reading the Wikipedia article on Crimea.

"Ukrainian is the single official state language countrywide, and is the sole language of government in Ukraine. According to the census mentioned, 77% of Crimean inhabitants named Russian as their native language; 11.4% ---- Crimean Tatar; and 10.1% ---Ukrainian.[104] In Crimea government business is carried out mainly in Russian. Attempts to expand the usage of Ukrainian in education and government affairs have been less successful in Crimea than in other areas of the nation.[105]"

Why are our responses to the situation in Ukraine and the area around Israel so different?

Hay

This post was edited by haydayhayday on Sat, Mar 22, 14 at 14:08

    Bookmark   March 22, 2014 at 2:07PM
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heri_cles

Israel has tremendous religious significance which makes any comparison with other places like Crimea kind of ridiculous.

    Bookmark   March 22, 2014 at 2:17PM
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dockside_gw

As previously stated, Hay, Israel has a powerful lobby and the religious "end of the world" crackpots also lobby for Israel. I don't see the same happening for Ukraine.

Personally, I think Israel's actions toward Palestine are in the same league as Russia's actions toward Crimea (and, utimately, IMO, the whole of Ukraine).

This post was edited by dockside on Sat, Mar 22, 14 at 14:47

    Bookmark   March 22, 2014 at 2:45PM
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rosie(Deep South, USA 7A/B)

As suggested, location, location, location. Self interest, self interest, self interest.

Elvis (and others!) a little perspective regarding your secret behind-the-scenes Jewish string-pullers (secret because the "powerful Jewish lobby" controlling the western world's foreign policy is sure not identifiable as such): The American Jewish leadership did everything they could and were not able to get the U.S. to bomb the tracks to stop even one single train taking Jews east to the death camps. Roosevelt liked that Hitler was wasting his military resources that way instead of sending them to the western front to stop the Allied advances.

For that matter, there are a lot of Jewish conspiracy people who have to come up with really fantastic explanations to explain how the Holocaust happened at all. Or perhaps you don't believe it did?

And then, of course, are those who believe in a supernatural Illuminati that always runs the world no matter what else happens. They'd have to be supernatural, right?

Dockside is right that the Christian right, a large portion of which was always traditionally heavily antisemitic, now just loooves the Jews, sort of, believing they're are gong to take out the Muslims for them and obligingly be wiped out themselves, whereupon Christians will take over the Holy Land. This peculiar affection is recent, though, is unsustainable given who we're talking about, and is pretty much irrelevant.

In any case, Jews are only about 2% of the U.S. population. I'd suggest that if they are running the country that sure doesn't say much for the rest of us.

    Bookmark   March 22, 2014 at 3:38PM
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Campanula UK Z8

A better question might be to compare Crimea with Kosovo, in terms of hard faced hypocrisy.

    Bookmark   March 22, 2014 at 3:43PM
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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

A better question might be to compare Crimea with Kosovo, in terms of hard faced hypocrisy.

Agree.

    Bookmark   March 22, 2014 at 4:30PM
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patriciae_gw(07)

This is sticky isn't it? History is rife with created countries often coming unglued. We have to answer for ourselves what is a country and why is it? We have tried to codify the concept in recent history in an attempt to maintain peace and balance but here comes a smack upside the head and we have to take a side or do we? So far as I can see this is a UN thing. If we could just step back from our attempt to dominate the world and Russia trying to do the same thing and let international law take its course there will be no major problem, right?

This post was edited by patriciae on Sun, Mar 30, 14 at 16:32

    Bookmark   March 22, 2014 at 4:44PM
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rosie(Deep South, USA 7A/B)

An improvement definitely, but can't quite agree. After all, the latest Kosovo internecine genocides occurred after Moscow 's control from outside ended and independence began. Not vice versa. Maybe let's wait for "ethnic cleansing" (what a term!) to start and we then do nothing before talking about our hard-faced hypocrisy?

Now, now about a comparison with Russia's forcible annexations of portions of Georgia since the end of the Soviet Union? We declined to go to war with Russia over them too.

    Bookmark   March 22, 2014 at 5:07PM
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elvis

Rosie: "Elvis (and others!) a little perspective regarding your secret behind-the-scenes Jewish string-pullers (secret because the "powerful Jewish lobby" controlling the western world's foreign policy is sure not identifiable as such): The American Jewish leadership did everything they could and were not able to get the U.S. to bomb the tracks to stop even one single train taking Jews east to the death camps. Roosevelt liked that Hitler was wasting his military resources that way instead of sending them to the western front to stop the Allied advances.

For that matter, there are a lot of Jewish conspiracy people who have to come up with really fantastic explanations to explain how the Holocaust happened at all. Or perhaps you don't believe it did?"

I'm sure I misunderstand your intent to include me in that little address. If you do intend to do that, I find it very offensive and completely uncalled for.

    Bookmark   March 22, 2014 at 5:18PM
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rosie(Deep South, USA 7A/B)

Elvis, I apologize. I think what I made of your hm, etc. copied below, was enhanced by posts of others claiming outsize Jewish American influence is the reason we haven't let Israel be destroyed. A truly astonishing degree of influence which simply doesn't exist but has been claimed by antisemites for evil purposes so long and strenuously that it's obviously become "folk wisdom."

If the Jews had claimed Kosovo for their state, we would have sat back and watched them fight and die there, along with the Albanians, Serbs, Muslims, Croatians, etc., etc., etc. As you say, location, location, location. BTW, I'm not Jewish, but DH is.

Elvis: "Why do we treat the situations so differently?"
Let's see. How many prominent Ukrainians live in the USA? Got much money/influence? Hm.

It could be location, location, location. That could be it.

Or maybe the folks in Israel are just nicer. That could be it."

    Bookmark   March 22, 2014 at 6:30PM
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elvis

Rosie: "Elvis, I apologize. I think what I made of your hm, etc. copied below, was enhanced by posts of others claiming outsize Jewish American influence is the reason we haven't let Israel be destroyed."

Accepted. I appreciate it.

    Bookmark   March 22, 2014 at 6:55PM
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labrea_gw

This could have started with the partitioning of The Ottoman Empire.

    Bookmark   March 22, 2014 at 9:25PM
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rosie(Deep South, USA 7A/B)

Thanks, Elvis.

So true, Labrea. Obviously the talking heads are missing a chance to fill some long hours speculating about whether Turkey might seize Ukraine, or even declare war on Russia over Crimea. :)

    Bookmark   March 23, 2014 at 7:07AM
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elvis

That would be great, Rosie. So tired of the missing airplane speculation.

    Bookmark   March 23, 2014 at 2:12PM
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labrea_gw

Annexation of Texas, Puerto Rico, Hawaii, Guam yadda
The Plantation of Ulster Hay broaden your horizons, Israel there are other whipping boys besides Israel.
Look at all the fake countries of Africa tribal lands bundled in to capitalist colonial production zones!
Sor of like the US Colonies or STATES!

    Bookmark   March 23, 2014 at 3:37PM
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elvis

Labrea: "The Plantation of Ulster Hay broaden your horizons, Israel there are other whipping boys besides Israel."

"Whipping boy?" Where'd you get that? Hay's questions are simple:

"Our government condemns Russia and gives Israel almost unconditional support.

No?

Why?"

"I'm looking for the differences, not the similarities.
Why do we treat the situations so differently?"

"Why are our responses to the situation in Ukraine and the area around Israel so different?"

Whipping boy?

    Bookmark   March 23, 2014 at 3:56PM
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patriciae_gw(07)

When you look at the entirety of the 'stan' nations they are all created from the grouping of ethnic peoples for reasons that we don't even have a clue about since the details are going to be beyond us all. So much of it must be left overs from the old British empire days. That they don't necessarily get along because someone said they had to is just what happens. With a strong presence like the old Soviet Union they had no choice but when that melted away then you get back to the real ethnic conflicts that were covered up by fear of a stronger force. I don't know enough to have an opinion on who is right or wrong here but I certainly see that it is left over conflict has to be obvious.

    Bookmark   March 23, 2014 at 4:13PM
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woodnymph2_gw

labrea is correct about the Ottoman Empire. After that ended, artificial "nations" were carved up out of the former empires and "created", mainly by the Brits, Americans, and French. Is it any wonder that whole area is a powderkeg today? And ditto, the "nations" created in Africa arbitrarily by those who deemed themselves more civilized....

    Bookmark   March 24, 2014 at 10:16AM
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labrea_gw

Gee Elvis those new ankle guards are a wonder
i just felt a faint vibration !

    Bookmark   March 24, 2014 at 11:32AM
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haydayhayday

Meanwhile, in Israel.

âÂÂThis march of hypocrisy is continuing and we will continue to condemn it and expose it,â he [Netanyahu] told his cabinet at the start of its weekly meeting in Jerusalem."

...

On Friday the UNHRC ended its 25th session by almost unanimously, voting 46-1, on four resolutions condemning Israeli treatment of Palestinians.

1? Who was the 1, you ask?

âÂÂItâÂÂs a pity that some western democracies choose to jump on the automatic anti-Israel band wagon at the UNHRC,â an Israeli official said.

âÂÂIt is a pity they did not use that moment to demonstrate moral leadership, instead of that they became part of the travesty. They became partners in a cynical one sided farce,â the official said.

But the official lauded the United States, which was the sole country to stand with Israel and reject all five resolutions.

âÂÂThey showed moral leadership,â the official said."

Hay

    Bookmark   March 30, 2014 at 10:08AM
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elvis

"On Friday the UNHRC ended its 25th session by almost unanimously, voting 46-1, on four resolutions condemning Israeli treatment of Palestinians...But the official lauded the United States, which was the sole country to stand with Israel and reject all five resolutions.

âÂÂThey showed moral leadership,â the official said."

Uh, yeah. It's interesting to read about the POV from others who have actually lived through some of the machinations. "Leap of Faith: Memoirs of an Unexpected Life" was an eye-opener for me.

    Bookmark   March 30, 2014 at 11:21AM
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heri_cles

What specifically opened your eyes?

    Bookmark   March 30, 2014 at 11:39AM
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elvis

â¢Posted by heri_cles (My Page) on Sun, Mar 30, 14 at 11:39

"What specifically opened your eyes?"

Right. I doubt your question stems from any real interest in my answer beyond your usual, heri. I respectfully suggest that you read it and find out; it's enjoyable enough to warrant some time.

    Bookmark   March 30, 2014 at 1:22PM
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epiphyticlvr

Uh, yeah. It's interesting to read about the POV from others who have actually lived through some of the machinations. "Leap of Faith: Memoirs of an Unexpected Life" was an eye-opener for me.

It was an interesting read about the life of a priviledged Arab-American, well educated woman who married a king but I don't remember it addressing the conflict in-depth nor the abominable treatment of Palestinians by the Jordanian government.

    Bookmark   March 30, 2014 at 3:21PM
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elvis

"It was an interesting read about the life of a priviledged Arab-American, well educated woman who married a king but I don't remember it addressing the conflict in-depth nor the abominable treatment of Palestinians by the Jordanian government."

Having been written by the king's wife and now dowager queen of Jordan, I doubt Noor would have written about any such "abominable treatment," so there is that.

You may recall much detail about the repeated land takings of Israel from the Palestinians, the UN's reactions to those, and the repeated flouting by Israel of the UN's findings regarding same. The book did address the conflict(s) at various stages of those conflicts, in some detail. Of course, I have no way of knowing how much detail there is to be had.

As to your memory, epiphytlvr, I have no knowledge how long it has been since you read the book; it was on my reading list last fall and I followed through. I'm reasonably sure I may fail to remember every detail (disclaimer), though I did learn a lot from a different POV. I recommend the book FWTW.

    Bookmark   March 30, 2014 at 3:40PM
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epiphyticlvr

Having been written by the king's wife and now dowager queen of Jordan, I doubt Noor would have written about any such "abominable treatment," so there is that.

Correct. There were many things missing from her autobiography. The book only touched on certain aspects and mainly as it related to Jordan. This through the eyes of someone who although part of the Royal family was not inside. That was not her role. The book was her autobiography, about her life and how she became a Queen, not a scholarly history book. That wasn't the intention.

You may recall much detail about the repeated land takings of Israel from the Palestinians, the UN's reactions to those, and the repeated flouting by Israel of the UN's findings regarding same. The book did address the conflict(s) at various stages of those conflicts, in some detail. Of course, I have no way of knowing how much detail there is to be had.

You may recall that I don't rely solely on memoirs to know the region. I have my own personal experiences to draw from as well as years of studying the region; learning from family and friends who live there and some that have been involved. I have had the benefit of living in Israel and Jordan and maintain a home there now so I continue to travel there often. So I don't just read about it which is why my opinion is NOT black and white. Lot's of good and bad on all sides and what you read is not always the truth...from all sides including the UN.

There are lots of hands in this conflict and too many who benefit from the status quo. Hardly a subject one can base an informed opinion from the memoir.

The book was an easy read and interesting story about the her life but hardly about the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

    Bookmark   March 30, 2014 at 5:05PM
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elvis

"The book was an easy read and interesting story about the her life but hardly about the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.'

Definitely an easy read...how else could someone with my purported lack of reading comprehension ever have done it?

:)

    Bookmark   March 30, 2014 at 6:57PM
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marshallz10(z9-10 CA)

meow,,,,

    Bookmark   March 30, 2014 at 8:05PM
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elvis

Nice kitty.

    Bookmark   March 30, 2014 at 11:18PM
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haydayhayday

Groveling for Dollars.

Poor Christie is having a bit of trouble these days.

"LAS VEGAS --- New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie apologized to Sheldon Adelson in a meeting Saturday for stepping on a fault line in Middle East politics during a speech he gave earlier in the day, according to a source familiar with the conversation.

Invoking a 2012 trip he and his family took to Israel, Christie recalled in the speech: âÂÂI took a helicopter ride from the occupied territories across and just felt personally how extraordinary that was to understand, the military risk that Israel faces every day.âÂÂ

While the story was intended to forge common cause with Adelson and the several hundred donors to the Republican Jewish Coalition to which Christie was speaking, his use of the term âÂÂoccupied territoriesâ set off murmurs in the crowd. The term refers to lands in which Palestinians live where Israel maintains a military presence, including the West Bank.

But the term is rejected by some conservative Zionists like Adelson who see it as validating Palestinian challenges over IsraelâÂÂs presence. Other supporters of Israel oppose the use of the term as well.

Not long after his speech, Christie met with Adelson privately in the casino mogulâÂÂs office in the Venetian hotel and casino, which hosted the RJC meeting.

The source told POLITICO that Christie âÂÂclarified in the strongest terms possible that his remarks today were not meant to be a statement of policy.âÂÂ

Instead, the source said, Christie made clear âÂÂthat he misspoke when he referred to the âÂÂoccupied territories.â And he conveyed that he is an unwavering friend and committed supporter of Israel, and was sorry for any confusion that came across as a result of the misstatement.âÂÂ

Adelson accepted ChristieâÂÂs explanation, the source said.

The mini-controversy and quick apology highlight both the importance of Adelson as the reigning mega-donor in GOP politics, as well as the tricky terrain that Middle East politics can pose for American politicians courting Jewish donors and voters.

Before the meeting, Adelson ally Morton Klein, president of the hawkish Zionist Organization of America, had confronted Christie about his use of the term, telling POLITICO he explained to the New Jersey governor that âÂÂat minimum you should call it disputed territories.âÂÂ

Christie was non-committal, said Klein, who concluded afterwards that the governor âÂÂeither doesnâÂÂt understand the issue at all, or heâÂÂs hostile to Israel.âÂÂ

Orwell would love it.

Hay

    Bookmark   March 31, 2014 at 1:10AM
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october17(5chgo)

All I know is that arabs were were in bed with hitler.

There are no innocents anywhere.

    Bookmark   March 31, 2014 at 9:41AM
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marshallz10(z9-10 CA)

So, the arabs have to go?

    Bookmark   March 31, 2014 at 10:22AM
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haydayhayday

Go through google to get to the story in Haaretz

Sanctions on Russia could affect Israel, Finland FM says

" Finnish Foreign Minister Erkki Tuomioja said in an interview with Haaretz in Helsinki last week....

...

Tuomioja told Haaretz: âÂÂIf a country invades and occupies and annexes part of another country this is clearly illegal and being followed by sanctions of the EU and other countries. So the question that many people are asking, this is fine and we accept it, but how come the Palestinian territories have been occupied for 47 years and there are no sanctions? Nobody has proposed, but we are aware that there is a link with the Ukraine Crimea crisis. So this will come up in the discussions,â he said.

He added that âÂÂOne of the countries that did not vote on the resolution condemning the annexation of Crimea was Israel.âÂÂ

Hay

    Bookmark   September 14, 2014 at 10:45PM
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haydayhayday

"This will not stand, this aggression against Kuwait.".

Hay

    Bookmark   September 18, 2014 at 12:39PM
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