Seems like he couldn't wait to take a shot at Obama as soon as he got released from the hospital. But I wish him well and don't think too many care what he has to say, surely you feel the same way...
Well, maybe he'll live long enough to actually be prosecuted for war crimes. I doubt it will happen, but I truly believe it should.
Good to see you out there Dick, we need a little "W" exposure too. Rolling them both out at the repub convention would do wonders to boost voter turnout. Please show up! Pretty Please with Rummy on top!
I take it you are referring to the "unmitigated disaster" remark. I thought it was too kind (also very funny)~~but that's just me.
Maybe after I finish reading "Plan of Attack" I'll understand why you keep bringing up Cheney and war crimes. Of course, I will have to research the definition of "war crimes", and then see how that applies to Dick Cheney.
elvis, you shouldn't have to read a book to know why anyone would bring up Cheney and war crimes. I imagine that you were alive and old enough to understand what was happening in 2002 and 2003, and the disaster in Iraq that followed the invasion,
I sometimes regret jumping to conclusions. But that's just me :-)
I'm sorry but I don't wish Cheney well. Karma is a b*tch and he has caused so much heartbreak and death in his miserable life that maybe it's payback time. I'm just sorry one of the decent suffering Americans who need a heart desperately to live would not be still waiting when this evil old man got one.
I dislike being scornful of the whole thing, but I have to sort of agree with Lily... seems strange that people who can fork over large wads of cash or a very well funded insurance card get prompt medical service, while thousands of others waiting in lines still wait... and suffer while they do.
Cheney should be standing before the Hague, in my opinion, being tried for crimes against humanity.
I sometimes regret jumping to conclusions.
No jumping to conclusions required as there is plenty of proof available. Britain at least had hearings to let the public know of Blair's failures and complicity with the Bush Administration. Does the discussion of the Downing Street memo ring a bell? How about any of the data released to the National Security Archives showing that the Bush cabal was determined to invade Iraq immediately after the attacks of September 11?
Right-leaning default mode is conclusions already having been jumped to and, in addition, frozen in place.
I agree Karma will take care of him. Not to worry. I am old enough to have seen it so often I believe you do not get away. You might get by for awhile but in the end you see it all. Pay he will.
I have it on good authority (anonymous of course) that the old heart was cast in lead and dropped in the ocean quite close to where OBL was allegedly sunk. A lot of lead was used apparently just to make sure it doesn't rise on its own.
Somebody better hide any leftover pieces of the "Allspark", then... or that lead heart will be brought up from the depths, and restarted!
LOL, LOL Ink
Obama is such a disaster. What deficit sheet was he reading when He and Bush took office. We were in the BLACK big time. They started handing out money like it was candy on halloween night. Stated a war under false pretense of WMD.
When they left we were in the RED headed to destruction and now Obama was the disaster. REALLY???? I think the new heart must have came with memory lost.
elvis - are you really that uninformed a person, or do you just play one on tv?
I think the thread title is misleading. In order for Cheney to get a new heart, he would have had to possess an old one.
I mentioned above that I am in the process of informing myself. Newspapers and online articles are fine for some applications but I find a well researched book reassuring somehow. I must admit, there is no instant gratification.
Hey again elvis,
Start with two ideas here. First, an unjustified invasion of another country which resulted in the deaths of countless civilians. (See: Weapons of Mass Destruction) Second, illegal kidnapping of foreign citizens by forces under the Bush admin's watch and handovers to foreign governments for "information extraction" with torture and even death as a result. (See Extraordinary Rendition)
I'm with other people here. I am sure Bush should be tried for human rights violations and even war crimes. As I am under the opinion that Cheney was neck deep in controlling the govt, I believe that responsibility lies with him as well.
Stop FOLLOWING me.
I'm about 2/3 of the way thru. I'll be in touch.
I mentioned above that I am in the process of informing myself...
So, then it's the former. Wow!
Well I guess having an opinion after you read one provided for you is better than being a a Quarto Centro art expert with little interest in anything else!
There you go, Labrea. I don't see how I can form an informed opinion I feel really comfortable about without studying it, it's not like picking a car color. This Forum is a good indicator (proof enough to me) that it's a big mistake to blurt out whatever's in the gut.
Former, latter? Dahling, how droll :-)
elvis, we are talking about events that happened 10 years ago, not yesterday. Do you always wait a decade before you "research" to figure out what your opinion is?
Cheney was a piece of crap that started a war through his puppet Dubya in order to benefit his corporate buddies. Plain and simple. You don't want to shake hands with the guy, either-- his right arm is covered in crap down to the elbow from being shoved up Dubya's a$$ operating his mouth. Ever notice Bush didn't speak when Cheney was drinking water?
Ah, Bill... it's so nice to hear the truth, and be able to laugh at it at the same time! That was a good post! :-)
Bill..you made my day!
tobr24u, wrong organ!
Mr. Cheney needs a brain transplant.
But the poor man cannot get any trade in value for his 1941 model.
Not always this long. I was busy.
How do you replace something that wasn't there in the first place?
I've been wondering the same thing, Ron... and though we may make light of it, I still can't help but detest the man for the role he played in bringing down our nation.
Elvis, do you read one single book, assume it was well researched, assume it is unbiased and then, ten years plus later finally decide your stand on what was one of the biggest disasters of the last half of the 20th century? You were busy for a decade and wasn't paying attention to what was going on during the Bush/Cheney years?
You didn't have a single relative who was of the age to end up in that war? Not a single friend who had kids that age? You didn't turn on the television, the radio, the internet and listen/read? Had no interest whatsoever in current events during those years?
Did you actually vote for Bush/Cheney once or twice or did you vote for the other guy or, in fact, are you one of those people who have very strong political opinions but yet don't even bother to vote? If you did vote, WHY did you choose to vote the way you did? The freaking two wars had NOTHING to do with your choice to vote?
I think that we have another one who would rather vote in the Bush Cheney team for a third run rather than see Obama in office for another four years folks.
Elvis, if you can't offer reasonable thoughts on why you don't think that Bush/Cheney should be tried for war crimes, then why in the WORLD would you make yourself a foolish target by piping up in this one?
We have discussed this before. I actually don't think they should be tried for war crimes, and I've given my reasons why, before.
I felt I had a reasonable reason why, if you do not surely you can offer a reasonable reason why not - without reading this single book in order to speak your opinion.
If a person was breathing and had brain function during those years, they have formed an opinion, Elvis. Lord knows that the information was so easily available then that one only had to follow one of the three major news programs on television once a week to figure out what was going on and if you agreed/disagreed. Or read a newspaper headline once a week or educate yourself on the internet by reading the headlines from whatever site you preferred at the time? Osmosis alone would have done it.
You have formed NO opinion on this matter?
OMG, I wonder if you are a typical American, but yes, it would explain so very much though, wouldn't it.
I'll bet you had plenty to say Gore ran against Bush! Surely you had reasons WHY you took a stand? Or, did you just spout whatever the party line on the political sites to the right told you to say without thinking about what you were actually saying or forming your own thoughts about what you were spouting?
Now that Glen Beck is gone it has thrown a whole lot of people into a tizzy - "what to think? What to think? With Glen Beck gone, what kind of opinion can we possibly know to hold?"
I find it flat incredible that one could remain so removed regarding this issue. The facts are there for anyone to know, even if you are like Mrsk and want to vote for Bush/Cheney a third time rather than Obama, surely you have a reason as to WHY they would do a better job than that Obama man?
Rather than you just hate Obama so much that any ole' lying, war mongering, deficit building, economy ruining politician is better than that Obama man?
Even if you don't know WHAT Bush/Cheney did during those years. Like a real, patriotic American.
mylab, elvis said she was busy. For ten years. Very, very busy.
Myl, I've said before I don't hate anyone or anything. That always been, always will be. So there's that. I've actually voted for Ross Perot--twice. :0
Don't care for Glen Beck; think he's creepy--I think it may be his hair and lips? I digress.
Do I know anyone who formed an opinion about how the Iraq wars started? Maybe. Probably; but they didn't tell me and I didn't ask. Real life isn't like this Forum (not my world, thank goodness). Have I formed an opinion? No. Have I had access to info? Factual info? Maybe; I don't really trust the news, so there's that. Tricky to try to piece together why might be true, what is the opinion of the news people. And I don't believe personal opinions are news. So there's that.
Let's just say that participating on this Forum is a great opportunity to study human nature. But that's just me.
Oh no, Elvis, it's not you.
However, and I repeat, how can an American not have formed an opinion regarding Bush,Cheney and the wars and if they should stand trial for war crimes?
After this long, if you haven't yet been able to figure out what you think is the truth (can we prove anything in life according to your standards??) then I really, really wonder how you run a busines. If, in fact, you actually do - maybe your spouse has to because you become frozen in indecision - how could such an indecisive person stock the pantry for food for the week much less run a business is a mystery to me.
But this forum is a great way to study human nature in how it is that individuals presents themselves on the world wide internet - that fact has been commented on a gazillion times, so it's certainly not you and certainly not any fresh new thought to ponder, Elvis.
Like, say, for instance - how you were so very insistent that the photo that appeared of Trayvon Martin did not represent what Trayvon looked like on the very day he died - was so very curiously insistent on that fact - as if a photograph of that kid was meaningful in any way regarding why he died that evening and if it could have changed anything at all about the events of that evening.
I found that single little fact about your resentful insistence re; the photo to be facinating. And revealing, too - just as I'm quite sure you have found little facts about things I've specifically said to be interesting and revealing about me and everyone else here.
It's actually part of how the forum gains a life of it's own. Read the gazillion threads about Z - discover the various camps, the various individuals in the camps and WHY they assumed the positions they assumed regarding the killing of Trayvon martin.
You will be flat amazed at what you learn about human nature, especially your own, Elvis.
I think, myself, that over time, it's interesting to see how some inter-relate, how some individuals begin to change, assume other's positions, assume the forum member martyr position and then run with the denials in game playing......most interesting of all.
It's not just you, it's never been just you - as surprising as you might find this to be!
Keep reading, maybe you will find yourself one of those STILL missing WMDs and thus, finally have that 'opinion' worth fighting for!
WMD - weapon of mass destruction.
What Bush claimed we went to war in Iraq over.
Since you were too busy to take note.
You know what they say about hindsight, though. I figure what I'm reading right now is more credible than what was floating around at the time events unfolded Besides, you would probably approve of the author.
One thing I'm pretty sure about is that our guys didn't commit war crimes.
Why would you think that I'd automatically agree with Bob Woodard, Elvis, what would ever give you such an idea?
It was released in 04. Eight years ago. I remember when it came out.
It sure does take you a looooong time to read a book, much less come to any conclusions. Even though the war is now over and Bush/Cheney is LONG gone. Even though you actually lived the time.
One thing I'm pretty sure of - one book does not an education make, re: the Bush/Cheney administration.
So many excellent resources, so little interest!
If they did, they'd be charged by now.
Hot Topics posters don't get to decide whether charges should be brought or not.
"War crimes" as used here is just a term some like to bandy about.
Elvis, I enjoy your posts.
I see now you've been brought up on charges of being so stupid for not coming to the same conclusion about Bush and Cheney as the liberals, and whining about them here on this forum that it's a wonder you even run your business and you must need help to do so. You've been basically mocked for being brain dead for ten years.
Next thing you know someone will follow you around on multiple posts to tell you you have no class.
Congratulations! Join the club. You must be hitting some nerves.
We know who has class, and it's not people that make those kinds of personal comments and pronouncements about one's intellect and character, when all anyone does is share their opinion--or NOT share their opinion.
Well, you must have a reading comprehension problem too, Demi, because I couldn't have been more clear when I stated, right in this thread and others, that I actually don't believe that they should be brought up on charges.
Nor did you miss the point that Elvis stated catagorically that she had not reached any conclusions about this issue, which clearly you and I and everyone else in this thread have.
She stated she had to finish reading a single book which, when read, would fially provide her with a thought about the issue being discussed. That one single book she will use, because she doesn't read other stuff like newspapers or well rounded internet sites or other books as well.
But if you wish to throw yourself on the martyr sword and defend her for being 'too busy' during those years - 'too busy' to educate herself about the very war that our young American men and women were over there dying over, please, be my guest. It won't be the first time.
Now is about the time that the other fellow conservatives should be coming in to defend poor picked upon Elvis and tell you what a wonderful person you are for defending a woman who was 'too busy' to form a thought about the wars Bush/Cheney got us in, while the children of this nation were dying in them.
Well, have at it.
I already did have at it.
The personal insults are flying these days, the "pronouncements" about one's life, intellect, motives, what they do with their time, and even what kind of behind they have and that they're drooling over someone else's behind.
Silly, indulgent, hateful, personal attacks.
Why can't you people just let someone have their say without insulting them? Why can't you disagree, or try to dissuade them, or question them?
Why are there always the personal and insulting comments?
You aren't the only one that made comments to Elvis.
I wasn't addressing just you, Chase.
demi - come on, really? Elvis is certainly entitled to her opinion on the bush/cheney war and whether they committed crimes or not. But, she is claiming she cannot yet have an opinion because she's not yet up to date on the events. Really? Not yet up to date on one the biggest events of the last decade? You don't find that a little odd? Especially from someone that participates on this forum?
Let me tell you a little something about books... anyone can write one. Anyone. And that book, as long as it has sale potential, might just hit the market. Doesn't matter one iota what it contains or how accurate the information.
And that anyone, who can write a book, can also use alleged quotes, even when those quotes are incorrect and come from someone who refuses the interview. Plenty of authors make things up, or pull numbers out of thin air to engage the reader and make them think they're actually reading something of value.
More people have been taken in by a well edited book with an interesting cover than I could ever count. And the content could be totally off the wall and ridiculous, completely off base, and a pack of literal lies.
In order to consider oneself well-informed, one must research deeply, using common sense, logic, and a large grain of salt. One must also have knowledge of both or all sides of an issue... not just one... to be considered informed.
The internet is positively packed with junk writings... and one must sift through them with a fine toothed comb in order to figure out who's playing by the rules, and who's not.
It's not as simple as picking up a book and reading it. That one book will usually only contain one point of view... that of the author, or that which he or she wants you to believe.
Why do you think I don't engage in every single thread? Because there are a lot of subjects that I'm not very familiar with. I'm not one bit ashamed to admit that I don't know everything. None of us does.
Adding an impression or opinion is a little different. But impressions and opinions vary greatly from vetted facts.
Well, Jodi--I did spend the last 10 years reading Shirley Maclaine's books. Maybe that's where I went wrong. The covers just sucked me in...
Me and Shirley--the "odd" couple, LOL ;-)
And to think people like Elvis actually go to the polls.
Make no mistake--they very well know. It's just play dumb, the favourite game.
Times sure were good under Cheney, for everyone getting rich in his wake. And then he even became Vice President.
What's wrong with making a killing.
Profit over people... the new mentality is just like the old mentality.
No junk writing here...
Lily: "And to think that people like Elvis actually go to the polls."
Well, good morning to you, Lily. Yes, I go early and often; I am originally from Illinois, home of the shifty politicians, incarcerated governors, the Dailey Machine, and you know who...
Gotta back to that new book now. Gotta get ejjykated so I can converse intelligently, like you all.
And thank God that Elvis' vote counts EVERY SCINTILLA that yours does, Lily. So does Ted Nugent's.
And it always will.
And there's nothing anyone can do about that.
Yes, Lily, there are many, many Americans who go to the polls without knowing a damned thing about the candidates. Which goes a long way towards explaining the mess this country is in.
Yes, we hope to correct that this November.
Demi: taking into account your comments regarding a candidates position on the 'Atheist' thread can I assume you will vote for Romney on this basis and not on ideological grounds that make anyone who is not Obama your man as you stated earlier?
I do hope so, Demi, but with folks like Elvis here who apparently take 10 years after an election to make up their mind about a candidate, I'm not terribly optimistic.
Ink, it's only a plus that Romney happens to agree with many of my positions.
It is an interesting way of putting it Demi when you say that "Romney happens to agree with many of my positions." rather than the other way around. I am not trying to put words in your mouth but would a Conservatives position be fixed with no possibility of change regardless of what new or progressive (small 'p') ideas came along?
I have changed positions over the years, to a degree. More issues are grey than they used to be and a few are more black and white.
Dream on Demi..Four more years or maybe you can join Nugents clan.
"Romney happens to agree with many of my positions."
Yep, Romney agrees with many positions fer sure.
Whatever your position is/was you can be 100% sure Romney at one time supported it. He's all things to all people, but in reality nothing to no one.
He's all things to all people, but in reality nothing to no one.
He's not Barack Obama.
That will suffice.
Only for a certain segment of the voting population.
Others, such as the much-valued sought-after independents, may be looking for more.
Not-Obama will certainly not suffice for Latinos given the GOP's unfavorable rating with those voters. Women will be another problematic demographic for the GOP candidate.
I agree about the Independents.
The larger and more important question is, will Obama's performance the last four years "suffice?"
The question is even larger than that; which candidate will the voters trust to lead the country. One could find President Obama's performance less than stellar, and still be horrified by the proposals of the GOP candidate/GOP party platform.
I think it's non-productive to try to focus on the one all-encompassing question. Voters make their choices for a variety of reasons, and have a variety of issues, or only one issue, that is/are important to them. A one-size-fits-all proclamation is certain to miss the mark. Voting is often a series of trade-offs; excellent on one issue, not so great on another (but maybe better than the opponent), tolerable on a third, and so on.
I agree with your assessment.
Why people vote the way they do does not affect the outcome.
One can vote for Romney because they're afraid of four more years of Obama, or not like Obama and yet vote for him because they're more afraid of what they think four years of Romney will bring.
People can vote for a candidate because they're a Christian or because they are black.
Or not black.
The vote is the same, as it should be.
"That will suffice". Only to non thinkers, Demi, who with their rabid hate of Obama will vote for a man with NO convictions but thinks it's HIS turn to be President.
Lily, you are misinformed if you think that very many people "hate" Barack Obama.
The fact is that many, many people are not only unimpressed with his performance as President, but many, many people are convinced that his idea of how this country should proceed and the federal government's role in our lives is in total opposition to all that they believe.
That is reason enough to strongly oppose his reelection.
It's our right and it does not deserve the assumption of hate.
I can tell you this, I would never want to do to President Obama what you said you'd do to someone, that I read on this forum.
I just don't feel that kind of hate towards anyone because I disagree with what is their RIGHT to think what they want.
My problem with Obama is that it is not only what he thinks, which IS his right, but his insistence on changing this country to match his views, which by virtue of his position, he is able to do to a large degree.
Now--that's fine. Just as it was George Bush's right, and plenty of you complained about him.
But dislike of policy does NOT equate to hating anyone or wishing them ill.
Not everyone thinks or acts emotionally.
Wow, I think that those are great points, Nancy & Demi. It was enjoyable to take in--until Lily lost it again.
I hope I'm not lumped in with the "hater" crowd. I actually think Obama seems like a nice guy; just not my first choice for Prez. The difference between how he seemed to think when he wrote his books and how he presents now is disturbing to me.
I don't hate Romney or any of the GOP candidates. I will say I hate Ted Nugent and not apologize. He is a vile crude animal killing machine who stirs up the ignorant NRA rednecks to maybe commit violence.
Mitt Romney will not win in November. There has not been a candidate in my life time with so much luke warm support. No one wanted him, but that's who they have. Mr whishy washy. As I said before , all the Obama people have to do is play Mitt's own words in whatever year he said them. His likability factor is zero. He is so phony and detached from real life situations which is apparent every time he makes one of his utterances. He's clueless.
I dunno; I like him. He's not my dream candidate, but I can't think of any candidate who ever was, to me. I definitely feel way more than lukewarm about it--
As fr as no one wanting him, well those votes came from real people. Now for the "playing his own words" part, tlot can be done with sound bites, and beyond that, people do learn and change, that's okay by me. I'm not sure the "Obama people" want to go there; it's a double edged sword.
You said: "he's so detached from real life situations which is apparent every time he makes one of his utterances."
That's pretty general; can you cite several examples? Sounds like there must be countless examples. since ou brought it up, will you kindly provide one or 10?
1 I know many NASCAR owners
2 I'll bet you $10,000(who says that?)
3 My wife has two caddys
4 I like to fire people
5 My sons don't want to serve in the military. They want to serve their country by getting their father elected president
6 I'm not concerned about the poor.
7 Peta is not happy my dog likes fresh air( after tying his dog to the roof of his car for 12 hours while the dog had diarrhea and vomited the whole way)
8 I love this state, the trees are the right height.
I'm tired typing. Just turn your TV on. Every time he opens his mouth..
Lily, I agree with you about Romney's shortcomings and conservatives who were hoping and expecting other, better choices back in the day would have agreed with you then too, but I do think it is a terrible mistake to say, or even think, that our current President is going to win this upcoming election.
I hope he does, but I don't fully expect that he will. Remember, half of the country voted for Bush/Cheney twice. And some would a third time rather than cast a vote for Obama and really do mean it when they say it. I wouldn't be surprised to discover that some conservatives would rather vote for Bush/Cheney again rather than vote for Romney if there were a choice between those two, *despite* the smoldering heap of ruin those two left the country as they took their exit.
I fear that really, this very well might end up being a tight election regardless, and if the enonomy has some unforeseen circumstances which tips it downward for the last two or three months before Nov, then the chances will be much greater that Obama will lose the election.
Of course, these are my thoughts on the future alone, but I hope you will be careful about making flat statements about what the election will bring with certainty. You don't want to end up in BigPP's position, ya know?
BTW, did Newtie ever formally drop out of the race or is he still quietly accepting donations for his retirementImeancampaign?