Trunk cutting cold damaged palms

butiaman(8a Douglasville,GA.)April 27, 2010

I saw a post on here about 2 weeks ago where jimhardy cut the trunk of his palm till he found healthy tissue.I cut my pindo down till I dident see anymore rotted tissue,but if you take your finger and bareley push down on the center of the trunk,it pushes down(soft wood).The wood all looks healthy,a nice lite brown color,no dark brown color at all.My question is how do you know if you have cut far enough?The inside looks like lite brown wood,but as I said the center will push down(soft like).I dont want to cut to far so how do I know when to stop cutting,when the center stops pushing down?I forgot to say this is on a 10yr old pindo palm.Please help,I dont want to kill the palm if its not already dead.

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tropicalzone7(7b)

I never knew about this method, but Im going to guess that the brown wood is dead also. I think only white is still good. Speaking of dead, RIP my Bismarkia (not from the cold though but just from being inside all winter). Spear just pulled today.

Good luck!

    Bookmark   April 27, 2010 at 4:29PM
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butiaman(8a Douglasville,GA.)

It looks like a redish color inside the trunk.It's not grey like dead wood.To me it looks like live wood,healthy living tissue.My only question is the center suppost to be soft,able to push it in?I've cut down other type of trees and you can tell when there dead,the wood inside is grey.I'm not sure about palms,what color is the trunk suppost to be inside,and is the bud of the trunk suppost to be soft?

    Bookmark   April 27, 2010 at 4:43PM
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jimhardy

Smell it,if it is rotten smelling......it's rotten.

Different palms are different colored inside to some degree.

You should see movement in a week at most maybe 2.
3 of my Trachys started moving within 2 days.

    Bookmark   April 27, 2010 at 5:22PM
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butiaman(8a Douglasville,GA.)

jim,I noticed it did stink really bad when I was cutting on it.If it still stinks then I havent went far enough?What about the center of the trunk being soft?What I mean is a quarter sized circle in the center of the trunk will push down if you push on it.Is this normal?Did you treat yours with anything, on the cut?Thanks for the info.jim

    Bookmark   April 27, 2010 at 6:31PM
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jimhardy

I sprayed it with a product with Neem oil in it, that is a fungicide,insecticide,miticide.

The color inside the core should be light in color and should raise up out of the center fairly quickly if it is healthy.
It should be fairly odorless.

    Bookmark   April 27, 2010 at 10:35PM
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david_(10a)

Mix up some copper and pour down the crown. If you cut all the way to wood then it is gone already. If there is no more fronds or petials the palm is dead." Neem oil in it, that is a fungicide,insecticide,miticide" will not help.

    Bookmark   April 28, 2010 at 7:02AM
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butiaman(8a Douglasville,GA.)

I saw the post where jimhardy cut his down almost to the ground and he found good wood,past the fronds.His has started growing again,pushing new fronds out of the bud.He told me to smell it and I did this morning and it stinks.Ive cut this far so I guess it cant hurt to cut futher till I find a solid wood.It looks like live wood,but the center of the trunk still will push down.I dont know if this is normal or not.What should I do,can anybody help?

    Bookmark   April 28, 2010 at 11:34AM
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david_(10a)

You can not save a palm that has wood if you cut down into solid wood. There is no fronds left after you go that deep.If there is a soft center you are not to solid wood and you need to use copper. I have used copper several times and that is you best hope unless you can get something commercial which will not do much better.

    Bookmark   April 28, 2010 at 1:15PM
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butiaman(8a Douglasville,GA.)

I was told by many people on here that pindo palms dont like copper fungicide,is this true?If it is what else could I buy that would be just as effective?What about a growth hormone spray?I have a bottle of it,would it do any good to try it?

    Bookmark   April 28, 2010 at 1:28PM
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jimhardy

David
You are missing a few pieces of information.

From my understanding the spear is history and has pulled already and other leaves are in jeopardy.

What he is trying to find out is how far down the spear is rotted,adding fungicide once you have opened the palm up by cutting is not as necessary as when the crown is closed and trapping water.

Sometimes they rot beyond the point where they can be saved so,there is no risk in cutting down on the trunk until you find living tissue.

The product I sprayed on mine being in part fungicide is also an oil(Neem),I used this for it's ability to make the open (cut part)part of the trunk a little more waterproof.

Once you have cut down and (hopefully)found living tissue ther is much less chance of it rotting again especially if you make your cut at an angle.

Cutting down on the trunk is a last chance method to save a palm thats core is rotted out.

Don't know anything about Butias not liking cooper but as mentioned,fungicide shouldn't be needed if you find healthy tissue and open the area up,provided it is not raining or constantly going to be wet-

    Bookmark   April 28, 2010 at 5:07PM
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theseventhlegend

butiaman I would not cut anymore down, why risk cutting too far? It is possible you can still save your Pindo if it's still alive. I'd try pouring a good dose of Peroxide into the crown. It works for me. Then another dose in 5-7 days. Also make sure dry air is getting down into the crown. The rot (smell) needs to be stopped. If you felt soft tissue there is a chance of growth... but your palm may have already rotted past the bud. You should see life in about 2 weeks if your palm makes it.

    Bookmark   April 28, 2010 at 7:51PM
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butiaman(8a Douglasville,GA.)

Thanks for the info. guys.I havent cut it anymore.Today was warm and sunny and the top dried out.I noticed the bud was cracked open,but still soft.I sprayed it with a little fungicide.I dident want to spray it with to much liquid,it just dident make a whole lot of since to spray a liquid on something that had rot already.To me it would be like pouring gas on a fire.Thanks again

    Bookmark   April 28, 2010 at 9:13PM
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jimhardy

Follow your instincts for sure but if it is still rotted....

I would cut again(as long as your sure!)it's not like the rotted part is coming back-

It really depends on the size and type of palm how far the bud tissue goes.
I will try and post a pic(update)on my Trachys soon.

It is a little scary to cut down on the trunk but if it is still rotted,you can't damage it anymore,as long as you cut a little at a time.

    Bookmark   April 28, 2010 at 11:37PM
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david_(10a)

Jim I understand. If you cut below the growth point there is no hope unless God does a miracle is all I'm saying. I'm not trying to sound like a jerk but I have saved allot of palms and lost allot too. Some palms have the growth point below the ground when they are small and a person probably will not cut to deep as long as its below ground. I cut mine as close to the growth point as I can so it can dry out inside but not to the start of the growth point because if you cut to close it will die.Sometimes if you leave to much only the top part drys out and the inner part still rots.If you cut it in the right place the liquid fungicide will dry just fine and hurt nothing. Many fungicides will not help when the bud is rotting but copper is proven. I have used peroxide but have not seen that it helps.

    Bookmark   April 29, 2010 at 7:24AM
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stanofh

Seeing 79f on Jims weather post..almost gaudy,lol, after all those months of...12f.

    Bookmark   April 29, 2010 at 4:48PM
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jimhardy

Stan
Unbelievably gorgeous April,nicest and most consistent I have ever seen,only 2 days have been less than 60 for highs.
7 days over 80 and one day at 90.

I have banana plants working on their 3-4th leaves that in the past have not even been growing yet.

This is very much needed to put the damage from winter right-

    Bookmark   April 29, 2010 at 10:27PM
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jimhardy

Me neither David

I would have said the same thing if I would
have come upon this post.

I was just wondering if you had seen some of the other post/info that had gone around before this discussion.

I took some pics of the Trachys I did this procedure on,I will try and post them tomorrow.

I would have never done this if I hadn't noticed mine were in big trouble and some of my other palms were already growing.

    Bookmark   April 29, 2010 at 10:33PM
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david_(10a)

Jim I read this post and I see you still don't understand me maybe because I have not explained well enough I'm not sure. If a palm is cut below the (growth point) there is no frond that can come back and only God can change that.The growth point is the beginning of the living tissue and under that is just wood no living tissue at all. That is what I was trying to get across but I guess I never did. Jim your palms were not cut below the growth point as you show in your other post. They were cut above the ground and the growth point is under the ground. All palms are not like that and crown shaft palms cant be cut in that way or they will die for sure.As per taking care of the palms before and after a cold event here is a good link.
Here is a quote from http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/mg318 "Occasionally, cold damage is so severe or disease has already progressed to the point where the spear leaf becomes loose and pulls out easily. With these palms, there is still a chance of recovery if the meristem (growth point) is alive. To treat these palms, remove as much dead and decaying material from around the bud as possible so it can dry out. Drench with a copper fungicide in the bud using the force of the sprayer to clean out the bud as much as possible. Follow up ten days later."
Here is the quote from the first post.
"I saw a post on here about 2 weeks ago where jimhardy cut the trunk of his palm till he found healthy tissue.I cut my pindo down till I dident see anymore rotted tissue,but if you take your finger and bareley push down on the center of the trunk,it pushes down(soft wood).The wood all looks healthy,a nice lite brown color,no dark brown color at all.My question is how do you know if you have cut far enough?The inside looks like lite brown wood,but as I said the center will push down(soft like).I dont want to cut to far so how do I know when to stop cutting,when the center stops pushing down?I forgot to say this is on a 10yr old pindo palm.Please help,I dont want to kill the palm if its not already dead."
Here we see Jim found healthy tissue (not solid wood)
The original poster found (soft tissue)not solid.
His question was how do you know if you have cut to far and my reply was " If you cut all the way to wood then it is gone already. If there is no more fronds or petials the palm is dead" Was that clear enough a answer for the question that was asked ? If it has solid wood and no soft middle it is dead. If it has a soft middle it has a chance but only a chance. I am sorry if I still have not explained what I meant but I thought it was conveyed.
I don't care if people take my advise. Who am I anyway ? but hopefully at least I will make my point in an intelligent manner and be understood.

    Bookmark   May 2, 2010 at 10:07AM
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butiaman(8a Douglasville,GA.)

I understand what your saying.It was my mistake in saying wood.It still is soft in the center.The palm never had spear pull,it just wasent growing.All my other palms had already started pushing up new fronds.I've not gone past the growth point.I was looking at it today and the center or gorwing bud is cracked open,and there are little flying nats are something coming out of the cracks,and It has a foul smell.I'm gonna give it a week and see what happens.The old fronds looked ok till I sprayed them with copper fungicide,well before I cut the trunk.It turned all the fronds completely brown.Mabey I mixed it to strong?Laura who is on this forum said that liquid copper fungicide she sprayed on her sabal palmettos helped them but the overspray hit her pindo palm and it spotted the fronds where the copper fingicide hit it.I am afraid to use it again because I know what it did to the older fronds when I sprayed it the first time.I've tried to look up about pindo palms and liquid copper fungicide,to see if they dont like it or if there is something else I could use thats just as good in killing fungi.

    Bookmark   May 2, 2010 at 1:14PM
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jimhardy

David

I am not sure if you think I was disagreeing with you or what,I wasn't.

I thought we were in agreement/or saying the same thing?

When I said you are missing a few pieces of information,I wasn't implying in anyway that you didn't know what your taking about or your advice wasn't good advice or shouldn't be followed.
I was just saying that some of the post's on here were a combo of other threads and forums that afew different posters post on.

Wasn't trying to say you didn't know what your talking about or anything-my bad for the wording I chose,I should have been more clear,maybe I misunderstood,sorry for any problems my wording created and thanks for taking the time to reply (-:

    Bookmark   May 2, 2010 at 4:43PM
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david_(10a)

Its ok it should not of bothered me anyway. I'm glad your palms are recovering I lost several this year. I have some that are going to make it that looked like death warmed over.

    Bookmark   May 2, 2010 at 5:21PM
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butiaman(8a Douglasville,GA.)

I cut about 2 more inches down on the trunk today.What was left of the fronds pulled out,they were white on the ends but dead on top of them.Once they pulled out there is a hole in the middle of the palm,I couldent see down in it so I went and got a flashlight and looked down the hole and I saw what I think is the palm heart.It is white and looks like it's mounded up,and looks creamy soft.It's about 5 more inches down in the trunk.Is it dead?Should I plug the hole to keep any bugs or anything else out?Should I cut the trunk down to it,or just above it?Or leave it alone.Can I pour anything down the hole,like copper fungicide.Please tell me its not dead!!!What about that Neem.What is that im seeing,is it the palm heart?Will copper fungicide damage it?Should I not plug the hole so it can dry out?Please help!!!

    Bookmark   May 5, 2010 at 10:19PM
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tropicalzone7(7b)

I would leave it but keep bugs and moisture from coming in. I wonder if wrappping clear plastic would work, or if it would just promote rot.

Keep an eye on that center because that heart might be growth.

Good luck!
-Alex

    Bookmark   May 5, 2010 at 11:41PM
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jimhardy

If the leaves are dead all the way down to it you may as well
cut it to be sure you have healthy material.
Any cover to keep it dry needs to allow air in.
Closing it up will promote more decay.

    Bookmark   May 6, 2010 at 1:03AM
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butiaman(8a Douglasville,GA.)

What about putting a fine mesh screen over it to keep out any bugs or animals.The screen would also let air in,and if its gonna rain I can cover with a 5 gallon bucket.What about that,what do yall think about that plan?

    Bookmark   May 6, 2010 at 8:48AM
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Loveplants2 8b Virginia Beach, Virginia

Hey Butiaman,

I sent you an email last night... Yes, I would cover it up if it seems like rain is in the forecast. That screen seems fine to try to protect it even more. Def. wont hurt trying it at this point.

Hope this Pindo pulls through for you Randy...

Take Care,

Laura in VB

    Bookmark   May 6, 2010 at 9:40AM
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jimhardy

Rereading your earlier post it sounds like all the fronds are gone anyway.
Just cut it down to healthy tissue,the spear should pop up in a matter of days-
the reason I would advise this is to avoid more rot as it will be safer if it is opened up.
Definitely your call as you have the best look.

Good luck

    Bookmark   May 6, 2010 at 3:33PM
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butiaman(8a Douglasville,GA.)

Laura I got your email this morning.Yea it makes me sick everytime I look at it.I planted that palm 11yrs ago this spring,and for years that was the only palm I had.I was so proud that I was growing a pindo,when everybody told me there not suppost to live here.Gary at Gary's Nursery said they dont do well in my zone,if they live at all.He told me Trachycarpus fortunei is the only trunk type palms that should do well here.I told him that everyone I have ever planted died on me from something.They dont do well for me I think because I have no shade or windbreaks,they get shreaded by the wind if they do live,like the one I have now.Gary dident believe me till I sent him a picture of the pindo palm.So you liked that picture of that cycad?They can live for hundreds of years,some more than others.I should post a picture of it on here,because I dont think it's a cycas revoluta,I've seen some that tall but not that robust.Mabey somebody on here could tell me what type of cycad it is,and about how old it is.I've been cutting grass and weed eating all day,so that's why im just now getting back to this post.Thanks everyone for the advise on my pindo palm :)

    Bookmark   May 6, 2010 at 6:16PM
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