Tree peony cutting, new root produced

haveatry2(Zone 7)November 11, 2008

I tried tp cutting two months before. Several days before, I was a little nervous about the result, and thought I might failed.

But last night, it was different. When I pull one of the cuttings out of the soil, white new root founded, about seven new roots around the stem. I was too excited to take a picture. This success make me to try those cuttings in the sand. It fails to disappoint me. Three cuttings have new roots. and this time, I did remember to take a picture,here they are:






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rian(7va)

Great pictures! That is so awesome! You are an inspiration. Could you give more information about the particular tree peony you used? Was it Feng Dan Bai the variety used for harvesting root to use in Chinese medicine? I'm guessing that one because I've read how stong the plants are--please tell more.

    Bookmark   November 11, 2008 at 7:30AM
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haveatry2(Zone 7)

Actually, these are just part of cuttings. I missed the name, but I am sure they are not Feng Dan Bai. They might belong to some rare varities, cause I only choose beautiful and rare varity to try cutting.

    Bookmark   November 11, 2008 at 10:19AM
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rian(7va)

I did not know anything about tree peonies until just a few years ago and still have not seen very many blooming. Varieties that you probably consider common and boring still seem amazing and wonderful to me.

Now that you have broken the ice, I expect many others here will want to try to follow in your footsteps. Please keep us posted on how your new little plants progress.

    Bookmark   November 11, 2008 at 12:42PM
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maifleur01

From the pictures it appears that you have the cuttings horizontal in the medium. Is this correct or am I only seeing what I want to see. Congratulations.

    Bookmark   November 11, 2008 at 10:58PM
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peonyman(Zone 5, Lawrence, Ks)

Haveatry,

This is impressive. I would love to know which cultivar this happened with. Tell us more.

It appears the base of the cuttings are swollen. Almost as though that portion of the stem was from under the soil when it was attached to the parent plant. Was it?

What time of the year did you take the cuttings? Do I understand you correctly that the rooting process was only 2 months?

Is your rooting medium just sand or sand mixed with something else? Did you root the cuttings outside in the ground or in a pot of rooting medium? What growing conditions did you have? Generally what was the temperature range during the rooting process?

Did you have the entire cutting under the soil or was the upper portion sticking out of the rooting medium? Please, give us details.

Do you think the cultivar is from Chinese source, Japanese source or is it a lutea hybrid? Did you try to use any rooting hormone?

I know I have a few questions here but you have happened upon something here that is really interesting.

Thanks,
Leon

    Bookmark   November 11, 2008 at 11:57PM
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haveatry2(Zone 7)

To maifleur,
Normally,the cuttings should be and actually are "vertical" in the sand. I pull it out from the sand to check out rooting situation and put it on the sand to take a picture.
My english is bad, hope I correctly understand your question of "horizontal".

    Bookmark   November 12, 2008 at 8:01AM
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haveatry2(Zone 7)

To rian,
Actually, it was last autumn that I start planting tree peony in my little balcony. And I only got one flower in this spring, pity. But we have a large botanical garden in the city with thousands of tree peonies and hundreds of cultivars.
I am a greener to tree peony. I hope more and more tree peony lovers would try cutting with stems trimed off, get more understandings about this technology and therefore we could have more beautiful tree peonies in our own garden easily.

    Bookmark   November 12, 2008 at 8:17AM
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haveatry2(Zone 7)

Thanks for your so many questions. This realy encourage me go on experimenting.
First, sorry, I don't know the cultivar name of these cuttings. It seems they are different from each other, right?
And also, I can't remember the exact date of taking the cuttings, I did it in several times, but it for sure not early than the middle of September, so actually it took not more than two months to make roots for the four rooting cuttings.
For these three cuttings, the medium is only sand,the other one's medium is normal soil used for tree peony. And the roots in the soil seems obviously better than that in the sand. Normally, nutrient soil is not suit for most kind of cutting. I might be luck this time.
These three cuttings are just put in a big Coke bottle with sand and several holes on the wall. Now that it was winter here, I put these bottles in the room near the heating system. The temperature is about 20~22 Celsius degree, and coved with some films, so the humidity might be around 80% or so.
If the cutting have more than 3 buds, then I usually keep the second higher bud just above the sand. You must have at least one bud out of the medium.
As for the cultivar source, my answer is not sure. I think among all the cuttings, some are from Chinese, some from Japan, also some from U.S.A, France. But for these three, I don't know the source.
I bought some rooting hormone,very cheap one. I am not sure the effect of hormone. Some of the cuttings use hormone, some of them use sugar water, even some of cuttings use some fungicide for human skin.
I know these answers are disapointing. But that is true. I should make some notes to make a real scientific cutting experient next time.

    Bookmark   November 12, 2008 at 8:49AM
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haveatry2(Zone 7)

Just took pics, not that clear, but better than my poor English:
Medium: sand

Medium: soil

    Bookmark   November 12, 2008 at 9:08AM
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happyday(WI4a)

Congratulations! You've done very well! Hope you continue to succeed in propagating the rare and beautiful. :)

    Bookmark   November 12, 2008 at 7:35PM
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haveatry2(Zone 7)

Thank you happyday!

    Bookmark   November 13, 2008 at 12:28AM
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haveatry2(Zone 7)

Leon,
For the "swollen base" , I am not sure if the cuttings are swollen. I just pull it out, took a picture and put it back, too excited to have a careful observation.
But from the picture, it seems the base is a little bigger than it should be. There are two possibilities, first, it might be swollen and as you said, under the soil when it was attached to the parent plant; secondly, that might also be some plant ash adhere to the cut to protect, and the sand makes it look bigger.

    Bookmark   November 13, 2008 at 12:43AM
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peonyman(Zone 5, Lawrence, Ks)

Haveatry,
Thank you for your information. The photos answer a lot of the questions also. I am thinking I will try an experiment through the winter. I am not sure which cultivar to try it on.
Thanks again,
Leon

    Bookmark   November 13, 2008 at 12:56AM
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haveatry2(Zone 7)

With heating system winter might be a good season for cutting to produce root. Go go go, Leon!

    Bookmark   November 13, 2008 at 12:59AM
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haveatry2(Zone 7)

Hi, Leon, do you have some literature in English about tree peony cutting? Most of the infos could be found on the net in Chinese are not that helpful. I even read several thesis on this topic, but not that impressive.

    Bookmark   November 13, 2008 at 1:04AM
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peonyman(Zone 5, Lawrence, Ks)

I have not seen any information on rooting of tree peonies. I think that generally the concensus is that it is not a viable way of propagating tree peonies. It looks as though you are dispelling that concensus.

I have not seen any information on rooting of tree peonies. I think that generally the concensus is that it is not a viable way of propagating tree peonies. It looks as though you are dispelling that concensus.

Can you give us some of the links to the articles on the web that are in chinese? I might be able to get some help in translating them.

    Bookmark   November 13, 2008 at 9:53AM
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maifleur01

Peonyman, if you have a copy of "Peonies" edited by James Boyd there is a mention of using cuttings in the 1928 edition page 241.

"(11) Cuttings have never been used commercially as they are uncertain and slow, but about 40 per cent are said to root if wood is taken in September and kept in a close frame. Soft wood cuttings in april under propagating-frame or bell-jar in greenhouse are occasionally reported as successful." This is from a piece written by Wister. I can not find my copy of Wister's book but in it I believe he talks about starting plants from bud cuts as side buds start to form on the trunks.

When I find the Wister book, I can lend both it and Boyd's book to you. This will not be until after the first of December.

FYI Peonyman and I live about 50+- miles appart.

    Bookmark   November 13, 2008 at 5:51PM
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haveatry2(Zone 7)

Peonyman, this link I think is one of the best reference source for tree peony propagating, especially from the point of cutting.
http://www.hezepeony.com/news.php?id=2
If you have some language problem, I might be some help.

    Bookmark   November 14, 2008 at 2:55AM
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peonyman(Zone 5, Lawrence, Ks)

Maifleur,
I have several copies of Boyd's book however I do not have a copy of the Wister book.

I did find that Allan Rogers said that the Chinese had been using some rooting of stem cuttings for propagation.

Havatry, thank you for the link. I ran the website through a translation utility. The portion of the article that covers grafting was interesting to me also. I will read both sections more carefully if I can spend the time to get it more carefully translated.

L.

    Bookmark   November 16, 2008 at 12:17AM
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haveatry2(Zone 7)

The basic idea of the section on cutting is: to improve the rooting rate, you'd first make the stem which you planned to cut root before cut it off, and to do so, you'd have some soil cover part of the stems in autumn or in spring to make it root. If the cutting have some roots, it is quite more easier for the cutting to live and make a strong root system. This seems like a mix of layering and cutting.

    Bookmark   November 16, 2008 at 1:19AM
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peonyman(Zone 5, Lawrence, Ks)

Yes, I noticed that by mounding soil around the stems of the plant you can increase survival rate by 60-80%.

But the article also says that while many varieties will root easily the hard part is just begun. The temperature and humidity have to be controlled to be able to encourage the roots of the cutting to continue to grow through the winter. The first paragraph of that section follows.

Propagation of tree peonies by rooting of cuttings

The peony cuttings should be taken from 1-3 year old fresh healthy sturdy stems. The peony cuttings root quite easily, however the survival rate is strongly dependent on the subsequent holding temperature and humidity. The soil temperature must be maintained with a minimum of 5C(41F) temperature for the roots to continue to grow. Heze is much colder in January with the ground temperature being lower than 5C(41F). Although in autumn peony cuttings easily take root by spring these roots will be few and short, the cuttings from easily rooted varieties have a survival rate only about 40%, while some varieties survival rate only about 10%.

My outside temperatures are much too low for successful rooting. My indoor humidity is much to low to try to carry them through the winter indoors.

Havatry, this really is a good article on propagating tree peonies. Thanks for telling me about it. I wish I had more time to get more of it properly translated. It is pretty lengthy. When I finished with a rough draft translation it was 49 pages.

Here is a link that might be useful: Original article on propagating tree peonies

    Bookmark   November 16, 2008 at 12:51PM
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haveatry2(Zone 7)

Hi,peonyman, how do you make this translation. You can read Chinese? With web translation machine? I can't believe that.
My suggestion is: put the cuttings indoor to keep the temperature, and cover them with some film to keep the humidity and manybe with help of automatic water spray machine.

    Bookmark   November 17, 2008 at 9:56AM
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peonyman(Zone 5, Lawrence, Ks)

Havatry,

Yes, I translated with an online translation utility and then clean the translation up to correct the english. It is simple enough but very time consuming to clean it all up.

I thought about trying the indoor rooting but I would not be able to set up an automatic spray machine. I may try this another year. I think it is too late to get it started right now.

I have been doing a small amount of layering and I do a good bit of grafting (63 grafts so far this year). I also do some dividing of tree peonies if they send up lots of stems.

    Bookmark   November 17, 2008 at 10:55PM
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haveatry2(Zone 7)

Peonyman,it seems you own a huge peony garden. I really envy you. Hope I could find a better place for those beautiful flowers some day in the future. I could not find any more place for those cuttings, the only balcony is filled with 8 tree peonies bought last year, so the cuttings have to be moved into my bedroom.
P.S, I am really interested in the online translation utility,could you tell me the web address?

    Bookmark   November 18, 2008 at 9:48AM
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peonyman(Zone 5, Lawrence, Ks)

Haveatry,

I see a couple of problems with rooting the cuttings indoors. a primary problem is that with the warm indoor temperature the sprouts will try to grow. The idea should be that they are kept cool enough to discourage leaf growth but warm enough to encourage root growth. I think that temperature range would be between 41°F and 55°F. If the temperature is cooler roots wont grow. If the temperature is warmer the cutting will try to rapidly grow leaves.

I have the link to the language translator below. Make certain you have the languages set properly.

Here is a link that might be useful: multi-language translator

    Bookmark   November 18, 2008 at 5:01PM
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haveatry2(Zone 7)

Peonyman,
That is just the same problem I want to ask here: some of my tree peony cuttings seems begin to sprout. Though the sprouting is slow, but they are apprantly different from last week.The color of the sprouts get more fresh and some of the sprouts get larger. Maybe I should take a picture tomorrow. Would the current sprouting kill the cuttings?

I think, the temperature and humidity might not the only reasons for the ongoing sprounting. Cause these cuttings has been about two months. Before moved indoor, the outside temperature was also around 20C, but they didn't sprout. Why?

The difference I think exist in two ways, first the transparent film used to keep humidity is replaced by some black garbage bag, less light allowed to pass through; the other thing is the lighting, when moved indoor, the cuttings will get 6 more hours of lighting from 6pm to 12pm, of course through the black garbage bag.

Maybe I should check the other cuttings behind the curtain. Several cuttings are put on the windowsil.The curtain reduce the evening lights on those cuttings. Tomorrow moring, I might make a carful comparison between those cuttings before and behind the curtain.

By the way,is overshadow helpful to restrain sprout,or just on the contrary, encourage sprout to get more light? I am really confused with this.

    Bookmark   November 19, 2008 at 11:04AM
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happyday(WI4a)

Maybe they are sprouting because they now need to get some food from the sun to feed the root growth?

A cutting won't have the stored food reserves that a root will have. They have to grow leaves and store food at some point, don't they? Or maybe the black garbage bag is making the cutting think it is completely underground and it is preparing a sprout for spring.

You could choose some test cuttings to put under clear plastic and see what they do differently from the black plastic covered.

But, I am not an expert on this subject.

    Bookmark   November 19, 2008 at 12:32PM
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haveatry2(Zone 7)

Happyday,
"Making food" make sense to me,thank you. If there is food for the root growth, then there is water for the leaf's growth.
I just had a careful check on the cuttings' sprout. The sprouting is not that much. Maybe I'd wait several days to make a decision.

    Bookmark   November 19, 2008 at 9:22PM
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happyday(WI4a)

Haveatry, I was just guessing and trying to "think like a plant". May you have good luck with them and get a bigger place with land someday to grow them on too.

    Bookmark   November 20, 2008 at 8:02PM
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haveatry2(Zone 7)

Just took a picture of some of the sproutings, is it dangerous?


I am not sure, if these sprouting cuttings have produced new roots.What should I do?

    Bookmark   November 22, 2008 at 3:11AM
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haveatry2(Zone 7)

A new test of tree peony cutting two weeks before.
Tree peony cuttings put in the water, temperature kept at 20c.No hermone used.
See the picture.


What would happen two months later?
Today, put a garlic in it, marked with red. Hope it might make some difference.

    Bookmark   November 22, 2008 at 8:11AM
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peonyman(Zone 5, Lawrence, Ks)

Haveatry,

What is the garlic suppose to do?

    Bookmark   November 23, 2008 at 8:09PM
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haveatry2(Zone 7)

Someone said, the water used for onion water culture might be helpful to make tree peony seed rooting.

I guess garlic might have the same effect, they all produce root very fast. The rooting garlic at least will make the water live, kill some bad germs and, if I am lucky enough might get some hormone from the garlic rooting to help tree peony cutting root.

Just a kidding. I like change, the new root and green leaf, though not from tree peony, make two month's wait easier,

    Bookmark   November 23, 2008 at 11:07PM
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haveatry2(Zone 7)

Last night, I read a paragraph about tree peony cutting, it is said:
After 4 months, no roots found from the cuttings kept in a closed frame with temperature of 5C. Cuttings in 10C got a root rate of 40% and 20% for 15C.
It seems the cuttings in a relative cooler environment, e.g. 10C, or 50F,might get higher rooting rate.

    Bookmark   November 24, 2008 at 1:05AM
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happyday(WI4a)

You can extract indolebutyric acid rooting hormone from fresh willow twigs too. Cut up fresh willow twigs, steep in boiled water overnight, use the water for your cuttings.

    Bookmark   November 24, 2008 at 1:00PM
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haveatry2(Zone 7)

Yes, willow has a lot much rooting hormone. But the campus has not many willows.

Another thing is if the IBA really help for cuttings to make roots? And what is the best density for cuttings and especially for tree peony to make root.

I heard that normally the hormone density for stem to grow is too high to restrain the cutting to make adventitious root.

    Bookmark   November 25, 2008 at 6:46AM
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haveatry2(Zone 7)

Today took new pics of the three rooted cuttings.


    Bookmark   December 10, 2008 at 2:24AM
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haveatry2(Zone 7)





    Bookmark   December 10, 2008 at 2:26AM
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jroot1_cogeco_ca

This is quite fascinating. I have an 8 year old peony tree, and a couple that are two years old. I have been wondering about cuttings from the "old gal". Perhaps, I should try. Nothing ventured ... nothing gained.

    Bookmark   May 31, 2011 at 8:49PM
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tamararly

Hi, Haveatry2!
What a wonderful report you did! I'm just in this way to try for my first time these cuttings method and was in a doubt for the time when to take them. In my Peony-book (The Gardener's Guide to Growing Peonies by Martin Page, 1997,2002 UK) it is written that the cuttings have to be taken in the late spring, but on the net I saw that the best time is in fall or winter after leaves have died back.
So, did you try some in the end of the spring??
But I am so happy to read your article.
What are they now?

Just some questions concerning your pictures. Did you really root cuttings only in the water with garlic? If yes, how many time it did so? And did you change the water regularly?
And another question: what are these white things you attached on the cuttings ?

Kind regards
tamararly

    Bookmark   June 7, 2011 at 11:53AM
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peony_heaven

Hello Harveaty2,

Great to read your report. I must ask, three years later, what are the final results from your tree peony cutting? Did they establish enough roots by spring? Did you find the application of IPA useful? Did soil really yield better results than sand? Any further info on the results of your work would be greatly appreciated!

All my best-

Dan

    Bookmark   September 22, 2011 at 12:59AM
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stevelau1911

Looks like a lot of work.

The easiest way for propagation that I've found is simply growing them by seed. They simply need to be planted in the spring or summer to activate the seeds, and they will sprout roots by around September once it cools down. The following year, they will create 1-2 leaves which last the whole year.

The plant becomes woody, and the stem become hardened and woody like a tree sapling in preparation to come back with several more leaves and thicker the following year. From planting until flowering, I think it takes 4 years, but I think it's rewarding especially when I'm able to give away seedlings because I already have more than enough plants for myself.

Here is a link that might be useful: Tree peony seedlings emerging

    Bookmark   September 30, 2011 at 9:11PM
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maifleur01

Stevelau the thing with seeds vs other types of progation of tree peonies, true for every thing even people, is that the seed plants are not a duplicate of the original plant but a combination of plants.

Only P. osti seems to have the genetics to block the crossing pollen and produce a nice whitish plant. I do understand that in China where P. osti is considered a weed that there are other colors of osti rather than white. I would like to get my hands on some but they are not exported.

    Bookmark   October 2, 2011 at 5:06PM
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stevelau1911

That would make things a lot more troublesome if seeds from a TP turn out to be a random color, but the good part is there's a chance for more varieties with the seedlings I've been producing.

BTW I have a potentially much easier method to duplicating a specific TP. Why don't you just build a mini-raised bed over the entire TP so that a majority of the plant is under the soil, then create cuts and rub rooting hormones all over the branches, and fill in the raised bed box with loose soil afterwards? If TPs root as easily as blueberry plants, the box should get filled up with roots within a season, and by fall once the plant goes dormant, it can be time to cut up the entire plant based on where the rooting occured. I'm not sure if it works well with TP, but if I wanted to make more of a certain kind of flower, this might be the method of choice.

    Bookmark   November 1, 2011 at 1:16AM
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maifleur01

You can do what you suggest or just tip the plant on it's side when planting and the buds on the stems should emerge with roots. However I am not a commercial grower so am more interested in more of the same but I am not.

Since you are working with tree peonies you should find more variation but you should keep track of the parentage as some will provide pollen but not except pollen from many of the other cultivars.

    Bookmark   November 1, 2011 at 2:33AM
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stevelau1911

I just thought up of a new idea. Since a TP can be grafted onto a herbeceous root, if I purposely allowed that root that was going to be grafted grow out for lets say a year in a pot so that it is nicely rooted, and becomes a stronger battery, would that make for an instantly more powerful graft?

That's just an idea. I have no idea how long it takes for TPs to make their own roots, but I am guessing that an extremely strong nurse root can go a long ways to maximizing the results of the graft.

I prefer avoiding grafting altogether since there can be problems with the nurse root swelling in some cases choking out the TP roots, or herbeceous sprouts if it is not planted deep enough, but I like experimentation.

    Bookmark   November 7, 2011 at 12:18AM
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