Stinkbugs - Please Don't Use Toxic Spray

rick_in_va(7 VA)July 28, 2011

I am alarmed to see postings on this forum, other forums, and other gardening websites promoting the use of Ortho Flower Fruit and Vegetable spray to kill stinkbugs. Here's why:

This product basically contains Acetamiprid, a type of neonicotinoid neurotoxin. This chemical is toxic to humans, just not as toxic as it is to insects. It is NOT on the approved list for organic gardening (several other insecticides are approved - see below). It accumulates in your liver.

Neonicotinoid insecticides have been widely banned in Europe (Germany, France and Italy for example).

This product is a systemic insecticide. It is absorbed into the capillary system of the plant - you can't get rid of it by washing, peeling, etc.

This product is extremely toxic to bees and other beneficial insects. Research has shown that it causes Colony Collapse Disorder, wiping out the entire beehive.

Chiliheads do our thing for many reasons. A lot of the veterans on this forum are devoted to maintaining the biodiversity of the chili species and resisting the seed companies drive toward all hybrid (and patented) crops. I raise them also as a food crop and to sell at the farmer's market here. And because I want organic produce without having to spend my "Whole Paycheck".

Stinkbugs - I hate 'em. I have declared war on them. But I'm not going to use toxic sprays. There are many alternatives that work pretty well. I will discuss this in a separate posting on this forum. Besides, the reports here in central VA are that they are far less prevalent this year than last, maybe a fourth to a tenth as prevalent. I think all the hype about how bad they were going to be this year was all about selling chemicals. They even got "temporary" approval to use chemical sprays on orchards this year that are usually prohibited. $$$ And we know what "temporary" means in govt parlance - it means you got your foot in the door.

Happy gardening!

Rick

Here is a link that might be useful: What's wrong with neonicotinoids

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tivo532(9B)

Good info Rick!
I'm just wondering how those manufacturers get away branding their product for Fruit and Vegetable if toxic to humans.

    Bookmark   July 28, 2011 at 4:31PM
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jean001a(Portland OR 7b)

Depends upon the dosage. Table salt can kill people. So can drinking excess water.

    Bookmark   July 28, 2011 at 4:36PM
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romy6(9)

I don't know what the experts say but I have a stink bug epedemic. But what we need is the Garden assassin.The bugs are awesome!

I am not saying to use toxins that are harmful too humans i just hate stink bugs and can't get rid of them. Even ortho didn't do the trick so i just sit by my plants with some gloves on and smash them one by one.I love the smell of dead stink bugs in the morining!

    Bookmark   July 28, 2011 at 4:50PM
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Joe1980(5)

I'm with jean001a. Many things we do and use every day are or can be toxic to humans and other things. Personally, for my peppers and other vegetables, I won't use anything more than pyrethrin, because it works fine. I know some will chastise me for even using that. However, I won't look down on someone for using whatever they choose. I embrace the free life here in the USA, and although I may not agree with what others do, or in this case use, who am I to chastise them for it? The reality is, some of us like to be organic, and some don't. Me, I'm kind of in between, where I prefer to keep the pesticide use to little or none, but at the same time, I couldn't care less what the guidelines are for being organic. So, all in all, I have nothing against growing organically, and nothing against growing non-organically. To each their own.

Joe

    Bookmark   July 28, 2011 at 7:41PM
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sjetski(6b NJ)

I'm with jean001 and especially Joe1980 here. There's been some conflicting info reported about Acetamiprid which leads me to think it isn't as bad as some say it is. But i am not a scientist nor researcher, nor do i try attempt to use the voice of god to convince others, so don't take my word for it. I know it works great for me so i'll keep using it because the more organic stuff is usually too weak for my taste, pardon the pun. Now if someone can show me an organic alternative that works at least 50% as good then i'll be the first to buy it. I have too large of a garden and rely on it too much for it to fail.

Just my 2c.

    Bookmark   July 28, 2011 at 9:33PM
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nc_crn

If it effects water, animal, or beneficial insect population it's no longer a matter of personal freedom unless you believe you're the center of the universe.

That said, there's proper ways and times to use even harmful pesticides/herbicides.

Most of us out there that aren't handicapped/elderly or managing more than a 100ft. of row space should be able to get by with minimal and small pesticide/herbicide use if you're willing to put a little time into your garden.

    Bookmark   July 28, 2011 at 9:49PM
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Joe1980(5)

Just about everything effects water, animals, and insects. How about the can of WD-40 that most of us have in our garages? How about almost EVERY fluid in our vehicles? Everytime you hit the lever to wash your windshield, you spray chemicals all over, not to mention anything that may be leaking. It comes down to personal responsibility; each of us need to be responsible for our own action, including using products, toxic and non-toxic, in the correct manner. I never have had a problem doing just that, and I surely don't need some busybody person or government trying to be my nanny and tell me I can't use a certain product. It's just like rick_in_va said, you get your foot in the door. Only in this case, it's the nanny state lefties in this country imposing rule after rule on everyone, because THEY think something is bad. Now THAT is what I call someone thinking they are the center of the universe. If you feel offended by that statement, do some research on California, and particularly San Francisco. Take a good look at what has happened over there. They've banned pet stores, because people might buy a pet, and then abandon it. Oh wait, that's right, they've banned the word "pet" too, because it's degrading. The law says you must call them "animal companions". Oh yeah, and now they are going to impose a law that says that all plants, shrubs, and trees have rights. They insist that trees have a right to live and thrive right where they are, and you must get government approval to remove one, even if on your private property. The list goes on and on.

Is that the type of country you want to live in? Think about that each time you think something needs to be banned. Sure, there is common sense involved when it comes to certain things, but for most things, that same common sense can prevent any problems that could arise. It all boils down to personal responsibility for your own actions, and not trying to be responsible for someone elses.

Joe

    Bookmark   July 28, 2011 at 10:33PM
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esox07

Damn, i am going to have to quit using my shotgun on garden pests or maybe it would be OK if I use steel shot.

Yah, I am all for the environment but people that think a squirt of bug killer is going to cause global chaos are just Hippocrates. Think how many millions of bugs you kill every summer as you buzz down the highway in your Chevy Volt. Oh yah, and the electricity for that toxic battery most likely comes from a smoke belching coal plant.

So, I say we should all own a 12 gauge shotgun and a box of Non-toxic shot. That way we can kill just the pests we intend to without damaging the environment. That is unless we miss and take out the whole plant.

    Bookmark   July 28, 2011 at 11:13PM
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Joe1980(5)

You & your 12 gauge. I would bet everything in your yard has tons of tiny little holes in it.

    Bookmark   July 28, 2011 at 11:29PM
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sjetski(6b NJ)

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>If it effects water, animal, or beneficial insect population it's no longer a matter of personal freedom unless you believe you're the center of the universe.

That said, there's proper ways and times to use even harmful pesticides/herbicides.

Most of us out there that aren't handicapped/elderly or managing more than a 100ft. of row space should be able to get by with minimal and small pesticide/herbicide use if you're willing to put a little time into your garden.
nc-crn you're trying to zig-zag a middle line without knowing a person's motivation nor circumstances. The comment about center of the universe is preachy and skews your argument, and most of us here put more than a little time in our garden, so laziness is not always the motivation i assure you.

If a product has been available for years, and been demonstrated to be on the weak side of toxicity, is used minimally (twice early in the season in my case), and handily beats any so-called organic product, i'm going to give it some consideration if i'm pushed to that point.

As for full organic solutions, where is it everyone? Because i haven't seen one mentioned yet in this thread, let alone an effective one. I have a garage full of stuff that didn't work last year and everyone here is welcome to it.

But on the flipside, if someone can point out a good organic system, i'll be the first to try it. But it'll have to wait for next year because i've already fixed the problem this year ;)

    Bookmark   July 29, 2011 at 12:41AM
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nc_crn

I don't care who uses chemicals or not...as long as they have a clue about how to apply it (aka, not some weekly me vs. nature fest you must win).

If you're applying in a manner that induces pollution unnecessarily, then it's not a matter of just 1 person or that 1 person's family/property/etc.

    Bookmark   July 29, 2011 at 1:41AM
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qasrevenge

Living in the Chesapeake Bay Watershed, I'm always aware of any chemicals I use. That's the reason I only aerate, thatch, and over-seed lawn. Weeds are green anyway.

I've never used any chemicals in the garden either. Just spend time in the morning and evening turning leaves and squishing anything trying to eat the plants. Or course, it's a small garden, which makes it manageable. If I was commercial farmer and needed to use chemicals to ensure my crop's survival, I wouldn't hesitate.

That said, probably because there are no chemicals in my garden, a Preying Mantis now resides there and I'm happy to have the help. Though I did accidentally take a bug from him yesterday. Little bugger blends in well.

Oh, and strangely enough. We had a major Stinkbug invasion last year and the beginnings of one this year, so I duct-taped shut the fireplace chimney damper to try to slow their entry into the house. For some reason, they all went away after that. No longer inside or outside. I have no idea why. Zombies.

    Bookmark   July 29, 2011 at 10:21AM
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jmoore3274

I also live in Maryland a little north of Baltimore. I tried several organic methods last year with no avail.

The stink bugs are starting to show up more and more everyday. I have and already used Ortho Flower Fruit Vegetable and from what I have seen it works on stink bugs.

If you read the label on the container it says not to apply it more then 3 or 4 times and not to harvest till 7 days after treatment. Using it once or twice to ensure a control over these stink bugs is worth it IMHO.

    Bookmark   July 29, 2011 at 4:51PM
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thisisme(az9b)

Well the first thing I did after reading all the above posts is look where I can find Ortho Flower Fruit and Vegetable spray with Acetamiprid. Then I did a search for Acetamiprid on Amazon and found the really bad stuff. Its not for Fruits or Vegetables though so I will just have to go with the Ortho Flower Fruit and Vegetable spray with Acetamiprid.

I love this site. Someone is always posting useful information.

    Bookmark   July 30, 2011 at 10:13AM
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Joe1980(5)

Oh good lord, I haven't laughed at someone's reply so hard in a long time! Thanks for making my day thisisme.

Joe

    Bookmark   July 30, 2011 at 11:14AM
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nc_crn

At least the reply didn't result in a multi-paragraph rant about the scary state of the bad ol' united states and nanny nation banning of stuff or whatever I got ranted to up above.

Common sense is knowing what you're working with, how to best apply it, and how it's use may impact others. Some people think the 3rd one can be tossed out the window or it's an attack on their freedom. *shrug*

    Bookmark   July 30, 2011 at 4:27PM
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nc_crn

Acetamiprid...mostly safe...unless you live near/at a waterway...and you might want to think about how much you're applying if you have a low ground water table or you drink out of a well on your property.

It's got some blah blah about bee kills, but it's only moderately toxic compared to other pesticides...this is a concern to some and not for others.

It's impact on air and soil persistence is negligible.

Very little research has been done on the impact of beneficial insects...or any insects, really.

    Bookmark   July 30, 2011 at 4:35PM
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Joe1980(5)

nc, you may not find it scary that our freedoms are being taken away, but some people, including me, do. I don't want to have to tell my grandchildren stories about what America USED to be. "Yep, I can remember when we used to get a big harvest from our gardens, when you could spray the bugs that destroyed it, but, then they banned pesticides." You do realize that if Acetamiprid gets banned, the nannies will look for the next one to ban, and after that, the next one, and so on. You can sit there and shrug your shoulders and think I'm nuts, and maybe I am, but hell, regular light bulbs are going to be banned very shortly if Obama isn't ousted.

Sorry if I tend to drag on with this crap, but it all started when the athsma inhalers that I used to immediately stop athsma attacks were banned. The environmental nannies cried about the propellant, as if people were spraying it all over every day. Now, we got some crappy environmentally safe propellant that doesn't work, and costs $60 more per inhaler to buy. Now, I have to carry a $250 machine with me in case of an athsma attack, because the "safe" inhalers won't work. But, at least the environmental nannies who don't have athsma are happy.

Joe

    Bookmark   July 30, 2011 at 5:07PM
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sjetski(6b NJ)

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>There are many alternatives that work pretty well. I will discuss this in a separate posting on this forum.Still waiting on the original poster's organic solution on how to get rid of stinkbugs, i'm not going to hold my breath on it though.

It seems that there's plenty of time to lecture us and exaggerate the evils of a mild product, but educating us on an alternative solution that actually works takes a back seat. Stinkbugs are a whole different animal than grubs and aphids, they drink neem and other products like soda out of a straw.

My wallet stands ready.

    Bookmark   July 30, 2011 at 6:35PM
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thisisme(az9b)

Joe1980, glad to hear I made somebody laugh. By the way I can remember the big Alar scare and ban and how it works.

One company sponsors several studies about a competing product. The results are a forgone conclusion. The same company makes some major donations to several environmentalist groups who ask for the banning of the competing product. The story gets picked up by the mainstream media. At the same time the same company makes some major donations to many lawmakers. Then said lawmakers write a bill and push to get the competing product banned. The studies supposedly proved that if 1,000,000 people drank 5,000 gallons of apple juice per day each over their entire lifespan. It would result in 5 additional cases of cancer. My dad always said "Follow the money.".

By the way I only plan on using this evil stuff at time of transplant after all the blooms are cut. That and after an infestation. I only plan on spraying during hours when pollinators are not present.

    Bookmark   July 31, 2011 at 12:02PM
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shoontok

We all know that politics and money have a great influence on the usage or non-allowance of pesticides.

The original poster has his reasons for wanting this product to be banned i imagine.

Im still waiting for this original poster to give a so called "safer" alternative to this product.

This product is "toxic" for a reason. It kills bugs! Thats exactly what its designed for!

I dont have a stinkbug issue. If i did i would try to alleviate it. Maybe i would use this product (AS RECOMMENDED) by manufacturer.

If someone told me to stop buying toilet paper because its made from trees. Am i gonna stop wiping my ass? I dont think so.

Jim

    Bookmark   July 31, 2011 at 12:25PM
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nc_crn

I wouldn't introduce any systemic pesticide to my fruits/veggies. I have a hard enough time accepting BT in my food supply (corn/soy), but at least that's a bacteria we don't have a receptor for rather than a carbon-N chemical chain that hasn't been researched very well.

I think too many people are obsessed with having pretty plants rather than the fruits/veggies they're going to pull off them.

Beneficials love my garden. I haven't had to spray for aphids in 2 years and the birds love the beetles...I just wish they didn't leave little beak slashes in the leaves. I don't buy beneficials...they show up. This doesn't come in handy for the small peppers that birds love, though. I have to pick small peppers before they go bold red or the birds snack on them.

Maybe I should get some bird poison for late season.

    Bookmark   July 31, 2011 at 5:56PM
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